Have the Lyrics Gone Too Far?

[Anderton]

If you've heard Eminem's CD, you know what I'm talking about. But overall, there are a lot of misogynistic, gay-bashing, crime-promoting lyrics out there.

 

So what do we do, if anything? This is a tough call, because there's a reason why the first amendment came first, and I really do believe people have the right to say whatever they want (if nothing else, letting people make fools of themselves in public is as good a way as any to destroy any credibility they might have).

 

But as record industry insider Bob Lefsetz pointed out in a recent newsletter, does this mean that someone like Eminem should be given millions of dollars in promotion to push his views? If, say, DreamWorks gave a huge push to a white supremicist or militant black hate group (hey, equal time here!), wouldn't there be an uproar?

 

We know censorship doesn't work anyway. The question revolves more around what is a company's responsibility to the public? Solely to make money for its stockholders? Attempt to push a particular agenda? Just act neutral and push whatever comes in? Are warning stickers and/or releasing both "explicit" and "clean" versions the way to go? Or does maintaining a high shock level simply cover up for people who have nothing more creative to say?

 

I don't have any answers. Let's hear your opinions.

[alphajerk]

i dont think lyrics have gone far enough.

 

and i really dont care what other people say. if i dont agree, then i dont listen. and you cant make someone act responsibly, they have to have their own initiative to do so.

 

regardless, i think eminem would be saying the same shit if it didnt sell. so its not really whos saying whatever but who is buying it. i personally think he's funny as shit. busting on the boy bands and porn chick singers, glad somebody is doing it.

 

now if somebody would just destroy transconwhatever who put together all those shit boy bands. that is going too far. that makes me sick. and all these ex-mouseketeers. all singing lame velveeta laden drivel to a drumnbass beat. who dont even sing (somebody elses song no less) but lipsync so they can do a dance routine. this whole dance routine thing has got to go too.

 

so while you would think that "misogynistic, gay-bashing, crime-promoting lyrics" would be the worst things going on in the music industry, i fear there is far far worse.

 

i thought about this while taking a smoke break (yea i know it kills, who cares???) and i think that it is rare anymore for people to merely make music purely for the love of it. well, not really, the internet is loaded with people who do, but some still have time to develop. how many of you out there are doing a project simply because it pays well or pays at all? how many projects do you not even think twice to jump into a project that you would do for free or for "stock options"? which do you enjoy more?

 

music has become such a commercial product its grown stale. but its the mentality of society. any mcdonalds serves the exact same taste, every gap has the same clothes, every starbucks (of which i am an addict suffering withdrawals from with a move to the country), kwallmartarget, yahoo, et al. like a big tub of vanilla, it all tastes the same, and i like chocolate. who wants to be an individual anymore? who will throw it all away for the sheer joy of doing something out of pure love?

 

on top of it all, the barely living "superstars" who can afford to just play around like the stones, santana, 3 beatles, left of zep (except JPJ, but no one cares what hes doing), eric clapton, and others are STILL doing the same old song and dance. bowie looks like he is pushing the envelope but hes really just riding whatever wave is passing by, still enjoy him though. its almost like you have to make a deal to live by never growing but stagnating or even getting worse, all the people who pushed down walls are practically all dead. jimi, janis, miles, morrison (didnt his lyrics go too far???), and others. i guess neil was right, it is better to burn out than fade away.

 

that is what confuses me more about society than some inane lyrics.

[jpwcolumbus.rr.com]

I can remember, back in the early 80s, when heavy metal was the prominent music form with shock value, listening to live albums and hearing the guy go up to the mic and say something with the F-word in it. The crowd would go NUTS!. All he'd probably have to do would be to say nothing but that word, and they'd probably still go nuts. It was like, all these thousands of headbangers spent $25 to hear some guy say the F-word at 10,000 watts!

 

As long as the average concert goer/record buyer gets a kick out of outrageous behavior & language, phenomena like M&M, et al, will probably always be the case.

 

Gov't censorship can't, won't and shouldn't work, per our Constitution & Amendments. And I don't see any other way to prevent things like this other than the listeners themselves making the decision to not buy records like that or go to their concerts. With the money poured into promoting "artists" like M&M, they are certainly expecting a certain ammt. of disc/concert ticket sales. If the people chose not to buy either of these and the promoters lose out, you better believe the flash in THAT act's pan will die out faster'n you can say "eminem"!

 

But, for better or for worse, I don't see it happening any other way.

 

Any other ideas?

[rjt]

There are a lot of questions which go along with "have lyrics gone too far?" such as, if so, who sets what limit? In a practical sense, as long as people do not have exposure forced on them (there is a big difference between driving past a bookstore that says XXX outside and see a picture of what they sell), it is okay to say what you want. To paraphrase someone:"One of the problems of freedom of speech is that everyone gets to talk".

 

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[Uh Clem]

Alpha - you don't have to suffer - well you might have to suffer from crappy pop mouse ear music, but for coffee www.starbucks.com - if you have fedex, you're set.

 

As for lyrics, big companies sell what people want to buy - they are not interested in quality - and come on - who belives they are? - 10 minutes of TV will tell you that. For the most part, consumers are not interested in quality either - the motorcycle is not maintained - there is no zen. This is not new(s). Bread and Circus - that's what works for the most part. Keeps things simple for the guys running the show.

 

 

 

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Steve Powell

Bull Moon Digital

Atlanta GA

music is a problem for everyone

you could hear things differently

www.mp3.com/stations/bullmoondigital

[Guest]

I managed to avoid having to hear his CD. What exactly does he say? One or two examples?

 

The ony lyric I know from the entire record is about some guy named Slim Shady.

 

But is this something new? Haven't these WOULD BE musicians and WOULD BE artists been spewing this crap for about a decade?

 

Rich...

[Chip McDonald]

Lyrics are for the most part inconsequential. We all know there are less than savory people on the planet who harbor anger against various minorities, this is nothing new. Sanctioning such a thing by a major label also is inconsequential - it's not a chicken vs. the egg situation, but one where they know there is an audience and they're catering to it. Albeit in a bit of a stereotypically ghoulish manner, standing off to the side as if they're not partly responsible...

 

What's important is what the lyrics reflect of the archetype the artist represents.

 

There should be no fear of silly white supremist hate metal groups that play both primitive music and present themselves in a foolish manner. They're reflecting a very narrow portion of society. A mainstream artist who has both primitive lyrics and a banal sense of self is more worrisome, not as an influence but again as a reflection of what's going on.

 

The point being, one shouldn't worry about the lyrics being an influence but worry about why they're being written in the first place, and why it's mainstream. Of which I could write many pages about, but I'll kindly stop here.......

[good morning]

Sometimes lyrics (or speech generally) go too far. Sometimes not far enough. What determines that? My opinion -- which is my prerogative and goes right back to amendment #1.

 

With issues like this, I look at my action and my passion. If there's a difference, then I have a problem and I have to do something or just shut up. (Blunt talk clarifies an issue for me, so please take no offense.)

 

If I were an engineer, I would hope I have the courage to refuse mixing somebody's songs I find offensive. But what if I needed the money? Hah! Maybe then I wouldn't, and then I'd feel like shit and have to rationalize a lot. I'd still feel ill though. But then maybe I'd learn from that and have more resolve next time. (I hope. I have no lock on virtue.)

 

These "ethical dilemmas" happen everywhere, and always there's the personal choice of doing something or not. I know too, we can always point to somebody else's profession and say, "Why don't they just..." because solutions are easiest when we aren't involved in making them work.

 

So the answer? I don't know, I just think that you can make one kind of difference in your field, Craig, and if I care enough about that issue too, I can make another kind -- write a letter to a paper or the record company, respond to this thread, boycott the CDs,...whatever. Maybe organize a neighborhood campaign or just sue somebody. I think that's how things work.

 

All we can do is just DO SOMETHING with the talent we have, making sure to leave egos behind because they do no good. (Yours wasn't in the way, but I think that's an important corollary.)

 

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[THE MIX FIX]

"The number one rule of the company is to do ANYTHING they can to make a profit for the stockholders" NYU Business School Professor.

 

M&M is a corny little punk. I could make HIM blush in 2 seconds.

 

There was a "biography" on his sad, poor, life, that my 4, 8, and 10 year old Niece and Nephews watched on MTV, or something. THEY (MTV) were pushing him. He must be signed to an MTV financed company.

 

I'd LOVE to have a REAL HARD-CORE rapper smash him on a cut.

 

BUT, I'm all for the 1st Amendment. I LIKE to say "fire" in a crowded theater.

 

And, as far as pushing stuff like "White Supremacists" by a MAJOR corporation, ever listen to Rush Limbaugh (WABC/Disney-there's that name again) or Bob Grant, or the thousands like them, or Howard Stern, on the other side of the coin (CBS)?

 

One cool thing about Radio, and TV. You can turn them OFF, if you don't like what you see/hear, and in America, you might not be "ku-well", but you DON'T have to buy that crap, either.

 

Let him be "controversial" like "Elvis the Pelvis" was, or the "Long-Haired Beatles".

 

NOTHING can shock me. It's almost like the parents of when we were kids, and are parents now, saying, "Now they've gone too far!! Why when We were kids, THAT was music, not this shit".

 

Couldn't care less.

 

Find a way to make a little money off of it, if it doesn't disgust you, or you don't want to be bothered, or lowered to that level, and wait for the NEXT Clockwork Orange to appear.

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif

 

 

 

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Bob.

[Uh Clem]

what Bob said.

[russreign]

I am all for freedom of speech - if you don't like it, don't buy it......

 

but, MTV pushing this kind of stuff really makes me sick since many of its viewers are young and impressionable.....should they be trained to look up to people like Eminem as role models, I think not.....

[Anderton]

>>but, MTV pushing this kind of stuff really makes me sick since many of its viewers are young and impressionable.....should they be trained to look up to people like Eminem as role models, I think not.....<<

 

That's the issue: the first amendment prohibits GOVERNMENT from abridging freedom of speech. It doesn't prevent a record company from exerting some form of self-censorship.

 

The idea of role models is key. Kids DO emulate other people, and peer pressure is real. Grossing out your parents has always been a rite of growing up, and I understand that. But glorifying somebody who advocates violence or whatever sends the wrong message.

 

But would I do anything about it? No, because it's all too easy to slide down that slippery slope...maybe you think scientologists are jerks, so you want them to shut down...there's no easy dividing line between what stays and what goes. Ultimately, give people enough rope, and they'll hang themselves.

[THE MIX FIX]

Greg:

 

PLUS, then you become, what is it again? Oh yea, a NAZI!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

Hey, how come you're NOT in Nashville, sweating your ass off at NAMM? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

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Bob.

 

[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 07-19-2000).]

[alphajerk]

screw the children. their parents need to get off their lazy ass and explain right from wrong and actually discuss issues with their kids. it is NOT the governments job to be the babysitter. and further, if you LISTENED to what he is saying, he is hardly glorifying violence and such. nowhere near the hardcore rap scene. ive heard some of the sickest, DUMBEST lyrics that makes MM look like a perverted priest.

 

and whats with the celebrity scientology connection??? i know, scientology is the DEVIL and all those poor bastards who sold their soul to him are mindlessly giving all their money to him. it still amazes me how much money is given to religions still. arent we out of the dark ages yet???

[THE MIX FIX]

Oh yes, now I see the light!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

I WORSHIP you, oh AlphaJerk!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

Now where do I send you my money? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

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Bob.

[alphajerk]

send it to my account in the grand caymans. thats the only retirement fund people should be depositing into.

[Anderton]

This is too good not to pass along from the Leftsetz Newsletter (copyright 2000 Robert Scott Lefsetz):

 

--As reported in "BusinessWeek", according to an iSwag.com survey, 81% of teens who wear Eminem-licensed clothing obey their parents' curfews vs. 34% of teens who sport Christina Aguilera logos.--

 

Interesting, eh?

[THE MIX FIX]

Originally posted by Anderton:

--As reported in "BusinessWeek", according to an iSwag.com survey, 81% of teens who wear Eminem-licensed clothing obey their parents' curfews vs. 34% of teens who sport Christina Aguilera logos.--

 

 

That's because the kids who listen to M&M are like my niece and nephews; from 4 to 10 years old. They haven't gotten to Christina, yet. She's usually for the 13-16 year old crowd.

 

PLUS, what "cool" :cool": teenager would ACTUALLY wear M&M clothes, http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif if they were REAL Hip-Hoppers?

 

Little kids, would wear the them, and corney little Girls will wear the Christina stuff.

 

You left out Barbie clothes. My 8 year old niece LOVES those, too!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

 

 

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Bob.

[gap2bellsouth.net]

The more I am exposed to rap music and artists, the more I start to feel that the 1st amendment is overrated.

[Anderton]

Originally posted by gap2@bellsouth.net:

The more I am exposed to rap music and artists, the more I start to feel that the 1st amendment is overrated.

 

The problem isn't with the first amendment; the government shouldn't be allowed to say what's right and what's wrong. The problem here is the morality of the people in charge of putting art out into the world. I can't argue that music reflects society. There are drugs, murder, mysogeny, etc., and it's not surprising this is reflected in some -- by no means all -- rap music. I feel that Public Enemy, for example, has always stuck to lofty standards both in terms of content and attitude. So why aren't record companies putting the full-court promotional press on this high-quality music instead of something more sensationalist? Easy: controversy sells. As someone pointed out in the letters section of the issue of Rolling Stone, Eminem knows how to sell.

 

The first amendment is great. The abuse of it by people who have no moral compass other than making bux is not so great. Can we legislate againt this? No, nor should be. All we can hope is that at some point, people learn that if you put garbage into the world, it will end up smelling pretty bad.

[tc4542home.com]

The unfortunate thing is todays kids are tomorrows adults whether we like it or not. Thanks to booming economies, good jobs, cell phones, etc., were all just too damn busy. Parenting is the key. IMO Ted.

[benfuryix.netcom.com]

Free expression is just that... FREE! I don't have to buy the CD if I don't like misogynistic, gay bashing thugs... and neither do you or anybody else... think about it. Don't make a fuss about garbage. Become and create the positive alternative.

[JohnBartus]

I support the First Amendment with all my being. As Americans, we do have the right of freedom of speech, and I want to see no governmental controls over any of it. That's why the concepts of First Lady Tipper Gore or President George W. Bush scare me a little.

 

However -- one must also realize that with rights come responsibilities. If I were to speak, write, sing, or rap about the joys of committing hate crimes against other people, then I shouldn't expect those words to carry no repercussions. If, as a result of those words, people were hurt or killed, then I should bear some of the responsibility. That's why the First Amendment does not cover the shouting of "Fire!" in crowded theaters. The shouter may not have trampled any of the victims himself, but his actions were the direct cause of others' pain and injury.

 

Granted, it's a bit more nebulous to determine what real effect Eminem may be having on his impressionable fans, but what happens if some sick bastard listens to the lyrics of "Kim" and decides to do Mr. Mathers a favor by dispatching his ex-wife to the great beyond? Impossible, you say? Don't bet on it.

 

Were I the producer of Eminem's hate-filled tracks, or the record company execs who release, promote, and distribute his vitriolic messsages, I would have trouble sleeping.

 

 

 

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John Bartus

Radio Active Productions

We Make Great Radio Happen - Guaranteed.

1-888-93-RADIO

www.radioactivedigital.com

[Guest]

Hey, from a business standpoint(at least for me), it's good there's so much profanity in Lyrics today...

 

I do some Clean Edits, and sometimes the edit session takes longer, than the actual mix...(And I'm not slow on Protools...)

 

Especially if it's an MTV edit...

 

Nowadays, it's also becoming common practice to release 2 seperate album versions...(Clean % Dirty)

 

As long as these guys/gals have dirty mouths, I'll be sitting on a Protools somewhere getting rid of all the Sh**s,Fu**s,Nigg**s and what ever else there is...

 

BTW - Doing clean Edits is damn boring, but it pays the bills...

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif