What happened to guitar/keyboard heroes?

[Guest]

Cool thread.

 

I'd like to speculate about tommorrow's hero. Here's my $0.02:

 

The supply of music has exceeded demand, due to declines in the cost of production & distribution. People have more music to listen to (in the car, on TV, in the elevator) than they ever have. They are sated. The appetite is sickened.

 

Continuing the food analogy..... The situation we are in, is similar to the decline in relevance of the family farm when they (and the fast food options) became efficient in America. Mom & Pop farms and restaurants could no longer compete on being better.

 

Mom & Pops have recently (after 3 decades) enjoyed a resurgence. The resurgent interest has to do with the eating experience and uniqueness, not food quality (being better). Being good (clean, fresh etc.) is a minimum requirement, not a differentiator.

 

Similarly (to crawl out on the limb of the analogy), the successful "music hero" of the future will provide a unique experience and will be more than adequately competent. It will possibly center around live music, since live music represents "an experience" and is harder to replicate (& commoditize). The experience this musician will deliver will be personal (as opposed to mechanized multi-media), and intimate (as opposed to universal).

 

Two conclusions:

 

1) I think that serious music will get accessible and accessible music will get serious.... again.

 

2) Maybe the greatful dead (and phish) are onto something.

 

Cheers,

 

Jerry

 

[This message has been edited by jerrya3@hotmail.com (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Botch.]

I'm afraid one of the reasons instrumental prowess is no longer valued is the lack of decent music education in our schools. I've been fortunate to tour Europe, and the appreciation and understanding of good music over the pond puts the U.S. to shame (how else can you explain Level 42's lack of success here?). Go into any music store today and you'll see a couple kids "pressing the buttons" on the latest "Groove-a-sizer" and sounding just like the dance music on the radio. The only talents too many kids can appreciate today are singing and good looks (i.e. Britney Spears, Backdoor Boys, etc) or the ability to scare your parents (Marilyn Manson). Several have mentioned that they think the pendulum will swing the other way, but if kids aren't taught the basics of music there's no way most of them will ever appreciate it; I'll bet most attendees to a Rush or Dream Theatre concert are musicians themselves.

On a separate note, jso6 was looking for a new group like Steely Dan; check out a group called Jango. Nice!

 

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[trick fall]

I really don't wanna be too offensive hear, but I think the boomer/long hair generation, as usual, view the whole hero thing from their narrow perspective. I mean the "classic" concept of guitar hero may not apply, but my nephew is fifteen, plays guitar and wants to build his own strat so that it wont have a fender logo, in order to be like Billie Joe's from Green Day. I also tend to think that most of the classic guitar/keyboard heros were pretty lame. I think Sterling Morrison from the Velvet Underground was a better player than any of those English wankers cept Keef

[Doug Robinson]

<>

 

What

do

you

mean

by

narrow?

 

<< I also tend to think that most of the classic guitar/keyboard heros were pretty lame.>>

 

Oh. Well, thank god you don't want to appear rude or anything.

[nhcomp45aol.com]

Three guitarist to see live,Joe Walsh,Leslie West and Peter Frampton.These guys are original,at 45 I have seen every band from Miles Davis to Alice Cooper. These three standout.

[trick fall]

Doug, the reason I didn't wanna seem to "offensive" is because I really just like to tweak the older generation a little, but all in good fun. What I mean by narrow though is that the boomer gen seems to define things only in their own terms. They don't ever seem to see past their own noses and I mean they definitely defined the idea of guitar/keyboard hero as we know it.

[THE MIX FIX]

Hey Tricky:

 

The OLDER generation!!?? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

How about, at worst, the Middle Agers, who know which one is their elbow? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

------------------

Bob.

[trick fall]

Ah, how I do love a little provoking. But seriously, I don't think guitar/keyboard, whatever heros have gone any where. I just think the criteria for what makes a hero has changed. I also think people like Clapton and Page had more of an impact as have most things from the late 60's-early 70's cause of the sheer size of the demographic. In addition with all the diffusion of media I think the hero's of today have to operate on a smaller scale, cause there's just so much out there.

[Anderton]

Originally posted by trickfall@yahoo.com:

Ah, how I do love a little provoking. But seriously, I don't think guitar/keyboard, whatever heros have gone any where. I just think the criteria for what makes a hero has changed. I also think people like Clapton and Page had more of an impact as have most things from the late 60's-early 70's cause of the sheer size of the demographic. In addition with all the diffusion of media I think the hero's of today have to operate on a smaller scale, cause there's just so much out there.

 

I think it had more to do with music not being as much of a commodity back in the 60s. Music as a blockbuster-oriented megabusiness didn't really hit until the 70s. It used to be a big deal to sell 50-100,000 albums; nowadays that's a laughable quantity. So I think the audience was simply more into music, and tended to pay particular attention to new styles, ideas, etc.

 

Gotta agree, though, that the boomers do have, by and large, a narrowing frame of reference over time. Just check out some of the posts in the "Are DJs Musicians?" folder. Conversely, it's hard to describe to someone born after 1970 the impact that someone like Buddy Holly or Jimi Hendrix had on music. They did things that were so revolutionary, so unusual, and so direct that they truly changed the world. After hearing a zillion musicians who have "borrowed" from giants such as these, it's hard to remember that there was a time when Hendrix-style guitar was not a cliche, but a radical invention.

[alphajerk]

elvis wasnt a commodity?

 

im a musician and i hate rush. there are no heros because nobody can step high enough. all the heros of the past have been taken over. there has been a mass of music exploration lately. look at how many guitar centers are popping up all over. that mean people are appreciating music like never before and instead of standing in awe of some guy who can do something neat, theyre just locked away pounding out their own shit.

 

the problem is that music became a commodity. thats what killed it all.

[trick fall]

I would like to think that the punk ethic helped people to realize they could be their own heros. I also think that the music that's not a commodity is out there. I mean I doubt Pavement or Stereolab sell more than two or three hundred thousand record(if that) and I'm sorry, but they are just so much more interesting than anyone that usually gets put up as a "hero". My personal heros were bands like The Ramones and New Order cause they took the abilities they had and created something new.

[Doug Robinson]

<,What I mean by narrow though is that the boomer gen seems to define things only in their own terms. >>

 

It's just a lazy generalization, that's all. I don't think any generation defines things in terms that aren't their own--how could they?

 

When you say Stereolab is so much more interesting than someone I'd refer to as a hero, it just proves my point. I've got pretty big ears and eclectic tastes, but I don't really dig them. I'm not wrong, and neither are you (well, at least *I'm* not wrong... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Maybe we can all agree on the following:

 

1. actual instrumental prowess (or the perception of prowess) used to have more impact on fans, in part because sometimes the artists *were* doing something on their instruments that was truly new in nature, and in part because there were fewer artists who could play that well in the first place so a little innovation went a long way (Alvin Lee and Ten Years After anyone?)

2. Particularly in mainstream rock/alternative/punk music, instrumental passages that showcase improvising talent have become rarer and rarer, thanks to an ethic which considers this to be "showing off." Whether this ethic was born out of a revolutionary spirit--"Death to our parents' music--no more guitar heroes!"--or because the many popular players at the time couldn't possibly have competed and made a contribution is up for debate, and probably both are true to some degree.

3. The phrase "guitar heroes" is, in itself, outdated as there are now virtuosos on instruments that go beyond the elements of a basic rock quartet. I have "studio" heroes, great producers whose career is sometimes more interesting than the artists they work with. There are turntable heroes. There are interactive heroes like Todd Rundgren, and video heroes--artists and directors who break new ground because they follow their own vision.

4. And then...there is an ethic that doesn't want to believe in heroes, period. Too many false claims, too many exposes, too much cynicism. I think this is more prevalent in a generation or two behind me (I'm 44).

 

It's interesting, because an artform like jazz hasn't changed at all in this regard--great players are always highly regarded by the jazz community.

[Anderton]

>>elvis wasnt a commodity?<<

 

He certainly became one. But he started out quite modestly, playing the equivalent of dance parties and cutting records for Sun. His early sound was very raw, very "fly for a white guy." I think his first album, with cuts like Mystery Train, was unreal. But like the Doors, after a breathtaking initial statement, the downhill road began.

 

Despite the commercial success of some artists, the music industry was far smaller and more localized in the 50s and 60s.

[THE MIX FIX]

Doug:

 

YES!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

------------------

Bob.

[trick fall]

Doug: Excellent and well thought out post. By the way I aint no spring chicken either and I do think some of them old guys were awesome. I was also just trying to point out that a generation with an overbearingly huge demographic has dominated popular culture and our (my demo included) perception of it. I just think a lot of great musicians have been overshadowed by guys who had their day and then some. If you spent your whole life hearing about things from the sixties being so great ya might be a little defensive too. I mean sorry, but nothing much better happened in the sixties than any other time except an exceptional amount of young people.

Craig: I would just like to point out that I think music is moving back to more of a regional scene. Just pick up a copy of any fanzine and see the hundreds of bands/labels etc. out there and hopefully with the advent of web radio and such regional grass roots things will have even more of an impact.

[Anderton]

>>If you spent your whole life hearing about things from the sixties being so great ya might be a little defensive too. I mean sorry, but nothing much better happened in the sixties than any other time except an exceptional amount of young people.<<

 

Well...yes and no. What a lot of people forget is that there were a huge number of bubblegum/pop-type groups that make the Backstreet Boys look like Beethoven meets Shakespeare. A lot of the good music from the 60s has survived; a lot of the bad stuff hasn't, at least in mainstream form. But there were some things that were better, particularly radio. You could actually have a satisfying musical experience by listening to the radio, which is hard to do nowadays. Also, concerts were much more wide-open -- everything wasn't such a targeted demographic. Often you'd have folk, jazz, and rock bands sharing a bill. That kind of eclecticism is what the 60s offered that has not been offered since. Maybe internet radio will be the answer. I think it's already a start.

[trick fall]

Definitely agree with radio today sucking! Would like to see more eclectic bills too. Hey I mean I'd just like to go to a club where the DJ played Punk, House, Brit Pop and whatever. I mean I don't know one person who only listens to one kind of music.

[Guest]

I think that the level of expertism that is needed today, to succed in the music biz, from a engineer point of view is due to the groups, and music scene of the 60's. at the time, studio technologies were all about fisics and discovery,now is all about math and presets, everything has been "discover",

and let me tell you. digital is here to stay.

and with it we would depend on the disigner to provide us with the tools, insted of our imagination to produce effects. They are given to us in a very conbinient box and the only thing we have to do is to check for bit and clock sync. at the time the engineer was just experimenting as the musicians were. starting with loud and big guitar amps, to multiple mic placement,to more tracks, to tape delay, to tape flanger, to stomp boxes, to melodic feedback, to wah-wah pedal, and that kind of created Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix (that and drugs) and all of those inovative Incredible people that insted of sitin down and keep on doing the same thing, they experimented and voila! we have delay boxes and flanger in a box and bass synths and midi and all that crap that the mayority of us would only use 'couse they come with a manual and tech support.

 

a teacher of mine said once that the diferent trends of music changes along with tecnology. music is chain to technology in a sense that, not only in the limitations. but in the creativity that we need to break those limitations. how can we brake the limitations of technology when we need a conection to the internet in order to get tech support in the latest software of the latest computer?

 

The reason why there are any hero's is becouse digital rules, and digital is in it's infancy, we are going to get our heros when digital gets into it's teen's, like in the 60s and then we would get the digital hero, that cool computer gek is going to rock our world. and before you'll notice, you will forget about the 60's (Jimi who?)

 

I do long for that generation of pro engineers that will never see a tape machine.

 

Love, music and tape bias

 

[This message has been edited by ccintriago@yahoo.com (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Guest]

Now.

 

That hero is going to be armed with tha latest digital guitar with a 60bit 300khz A/D

and the newest type of syntesys, and he/she is going to be able to play that thing with SOUL and program his/her rig to produce any sound it can be heard. and he or she might have a phd on software or hardware.

 

yes.the future is going to suck!

[Guest]

ccintriago,

I don't really understand what you're saying. Really -- your two previous posts make little sense.

 

You say that you "long for that generation of pro engineers that will never see a tape machine." I'm not trying to be a grammar enforcer, but this makes no sense. If you long for something you have a desire for it. I don't think that's what you were trying to say. Or were you being sarcastic?

 

You say that "dif[f]erent trends of music changes along with tec[h]nology." Of course it does. It always has -- because _everything_ humans make is technology. "Technology" is not just some concept that appeared in the late 1970s. "Technology," and especially "high technology" is relevent to the time you live in. When Christofori invented the Pianoforte in 1700whatever, that was high tech. Imagine being able to play soft _and_ loud on a keyboard. If I lived back then, I'd never touch a harpsichord again after I played a pianoforte for the first time.

 

The future is not going to suck. Not in the least. Put a brick on the accelerator pedal and get me there now. No one's stopping anyone from experimenting. I experiment a lot more now that I have "technology" -- far more than when I only had a four-track and a few effects pedals. If you don't like digital, don't use it. Analog will always be around in some form, and if you really want to sync up two reels of tape and manually flange them, go ahead -- it's a neat, albeit time-consuming trick. But for the same reason I drive my car (rather than walk) to the dentist's office, and for the same reason that I appreciate novacaine and the non-manually-powered drill when I get there, I'll stick to my flanger-in-a-box.

[good morning]

Are you saying the future is going suck because it's digital?? Then stop listening to CD's, and next time you want to respond to this forum, why don't you use snail mail?

 

I think jerrya3 and trickfall have this topic nailed. I'm 45 -- whoopee (sarcasm). Hero worship is useless and "the way things used to be" is tiring. Reminds me of what my parents used to lament, which was tiring also.

 

Boomers aren't the only generation pandered to anymore -- that's nothing to get upset about but it's the truth. And yes, being the biggest freaking demographic to burp along in history HAS reaped us a lot of attention and rewards. We had heroes, like every generation does, and in their day these heroes make their contribution.

 

But part of the "problem" of not seeing heroes today is that I think as we get older, we just don't agree with what twenty-somethings see as good. (The music biz really caters to a younger crowd, and that ain't us anymore.) I also think that at this point we've all been saturated with so many "heroes" and biz hype that more people would rather just DO something on their own rather than idolize someone else -- and that's a good thing. (The magazine industry helps out here, too. Look at all the instruction one can get on just about ANYTHING. Result: there's no mystery and there's no excuse for not getting good on your own anymore.)

 

How long must generations genuflect and say "Oh, Jimi, oh Eric..." There are new artists now, but even so, comparisons across the years are pretty useless. So what if someone is "better" than somebody else? And who's hero is "bigger" anyway? Sounds like a stupid sex argument. What a waste of time.

 

We're talking about music here. Do you like it, can you dance to it, do you cry or laugh while you listen to it!!? That's what it's about, to me. Ditto with the equipment and guitars to make music. All that retro gear and those "reissue" guitar models in catalogs are laugable. If the old stuff was so good, why did Fender and Gibson stop making it? My single pu guitar is a Carvin and I LIKE that it doesn't have a "name." I like the quality and looks, and there's no lame mystique to a period of time when I still read comic books, faced 10 o'clock curfews, and wondered why everyone in college (years ahead of me) protested Vietnam so much.

[THE MIX FIX]

Originally posted by swright50@excite.com:

there's no lame mystique to a period of time when I still read comic books, faced 10 o'clock curfews, and wondered why everyone in college (years ahead of me) protested Vietnam so much.

 

Let's see 45... means you were born in 1955 or so, 1973, when you were 18, Vietnam was blazing, and you were eligible for the draft, and college http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

You had 10 PM curfews and read comic books when you were 18? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

------------------

Bob.

 

[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but my schooling was in spanish, I was also typing quind of fast. so please bare with me.

 

1.- THE FUTURE IS NOT GOING TO SUCK.(i was trying to say that u need a person highly educated on software to twik everything digital, when in the past, you could recap a console and service everything with a knolege in electronics. Now you need to know about code, programing etc. and this digital gadgets sounds exactly the same. (THAT SUCKS)

 

2.- DIGITAL IS IN IT"S INFANCY, and that we are not going to see a totaly radical change in the "spirit" of music untill the techology evolves to a extrem in wich we are able to control not only signal flow (in analog everything is compatible with almost everything), but the way a studio works to create a "new", all digital studio, Not only a recording studio, but a composing studio. this is on it's way.(e.g. Phisical Modeling syntesis, MIDI thru a SCSI Bus, Digital Mic's. ect)

THIS IS GOOD

 

3.-That the next generation of musicians is going to be able to use what is given to them in a way that would not only give them freedom of sounds, but freedom of control, a new aproach to music and the instrument would be needed and is here were the new hero would exel.(But this would take a life of training, in an instrument, an in it's technology)

 

i do long for the next generation of pro engineers.

i hope is clearer now

cheers

[good morning]

Hey Mix Bob,

 

Your math is funnier than you. Naturally, there is some generalizing on my part. A decade covers....hmmm, 10 years? But anybody interested in understanding my point instead of mincing my words would get it. Try thinking instead of humor sometime. It might work for you.

[ozbassyahoo.com]

Actually this is a serious issue, because in this age of no guitar and keyboard heroes a far more dangerous and civilization destroying icon has emerged - THE BASS GUITAR HERO!!!!

 

Flea, Les Claypool - it has to stop before the whole thing goes to pot.....

[THE MIX FIX]

Originally posted by swright50@excite.com:

Hey Mix Bob,

 

Your math is funnier than you. Naturally, there is some generalizing on my part. A decade covers....hmmm, 10 years? But anybody interested in understanding my point instead of mincing my words would get it. Try thinking instead of humor sometime. It might work for you.

 

Okay, I fixed my math, sorry. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif

 

You make a few good points, but loosen up a bit, okay!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

 

 

------------------

Bob.

[mmahotmagumboaol.com]

My old saying "Hendrix, by todays standard, wasn't THAT good. But then again, he SET most of todays standards".

 

Nugent took JHs "feedback" to one level higher by realising the proximity between amp, monitor and GTR and turned "feedback" into "harmonic sustain".But JH was the original to "showcase" trying to fry your amp.

 

Eddie V/H utilizes "blues" progressions and chord structures to create a "feel", but yet, another Hendrix innovation.

 

Stevie Ray V? Hell, he thought he WAS Hendrix.

 

Looking for another Strat-o-master?

 

MAHOTMAGUMBO.IUMA.COM (copy & paste made easy)

 

BTW: I saw J. Page playing with "The Black Crows" the other nite. Seemed like an exercise in futility.... And the 2 guitarists didn't look, at all, happy.

 

.$02

Michael

[good morning]

OK Bob. Peace.

 

Your math is fixed now, but at the expense of historical accuracy. Vietnam was not "blazing" in '73 -- nothing like it was in 1968 as you originally commented. (Nixon's "peace with honor" and that "decent interval" policy were kicking in.) The draft also ended in '73.

 

Who knew this thread would become a history lesson?

 

And ozbass, you make a witty and scary observation!

[THE MIX FIX]

Originally posted by swright50@excite.com:

OK Bob. Peace.

 

Your math is fixed now, but at the expense of historical accuracy. Vietnam was not "blazing" in '73 -- nothing like it was in 1968 as you originally commented. (Nixon's "peace with honor" and that "decent interval" policy were kicking in.) The draft also ended in '73.

 

 

...Love and Understanding!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

How high was YOUR lottery number, in the draft?

 

I was sure walking on eggs!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

 

 

------------------

Bob.

[alphajerk]

i dont think there are heros much anymore because the new generation is just doing their own thing instead of following a singular person. [unless they are into techno, then they are just following everybody else, morons, everyone can be a DJ]

 

plus back in the 60's, TV wasnt even invented http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif and the drinking age was 18. more people as said earlier also created more excitement. fortunately i live in a young town probably average age of 25 with lots of live music and a rock steady scene but other towns just dont have that.

 

and JIMI is STILL GOD, nobody has topped him, especially Nugent [faggot (no offense to gay people, not what im referring to)], try dickie betts for some sustain. SRV was a total wannabe.

 

but lots and lots of "heros" of the past like the stones, the beatles, who, zepplin, et al would get their asses kicked by some of the modern bands. they were all just dumb luck [where 'being in the right place at the right time' adage came from].

 

its the same thing as saying weed was so much better then, i dont think so and have proved it time and time again to the yippies of the past.