What happened to guitar/keyboard heroes?

[Anderton]

Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, musicians got into intense discussions about "guitar heroes" like Clapton, Jeff Beck, etc. and "keyboard heroes" like Keith Emerson, Chick Corea, etc.

 

Where are the heroes now? Who, for example, are the keyboard heroes you could put on the cover of Keyboard magazine right now? After you've done Trent Reznor, and...well...see what I mean?

 

Do YOU have any musical heroes? And why do you think the "hero" is becoming de-emphasized -- if you in fact think it is?

[Guest]

I had a similar abstract discussion about "the relevence of guitar heroes in modern music" with a friend several years ago.

 

I don't recall what we concluded.

 

But Frank Zappa concluded that you really weren't a cool keyboardist until they developed those keyboards you could wear around your neck and walk around with.

 

I think he said it best when he said, (paraphrasing) "it's always the guitarist who gets the blowjob, which was why some keyboard player invented those wearable keyboards."

 

One thing that occurred to me after I got over my hero-worship of all of the "guitar heroes" is there there are plenty of other players out there who kick their butts.

 

Rich...

[alphajerk]

so after jimi what do you got? there are no heros anymore. we have awoken from that ignorance. slowly we will of celebritism, which is a really sick mindset of human conscience. hell, most of the "heros" of yesteryear bore me to death, most of my friends play that well or better. but ultimately we diversify and no one player garners our undivided attention. i enjoy hearing all kinds of guitarists.

 

 

and trent reznor??? a keyboardist? a noizeboardist. ween does some cool stuff with keyboards but they are really guitarists. who plays the keyboard anymore??? i mean aside from programming. i just seems that position in the bands are gone. why dont yall have dust brothers on the cover. oh wait, that would be electronic musician. or that loser in marilyn manson who just pounds on his keyboard. how about art neville of the funky meters, not very "modern" though.

 

i have no idea.

[Guest]

The current state of most "popular" music doesn't really call for virtuosity... in guitar or keyboard. Jazz and Bluegrass are the only fields where it seems serious chpos are respected. I suspect the pendulum will eventually swing the other way sometime... musical tastes are nothing if not variable.

[Guest]

As for my persoanl "heroes", I'm still trying to figure out how Jimi made things work (g). But there are some great players oit there, especially in the acoustic fields. Anybody ever heard Chris Thile? That kid can play mandolin like you can't belive...

[Bill V]

The 80s Guitar hero's commited suicide. When I was a kid in the 70s the musical heros were not only just good players, they were part of a larger creative package, with good song writing and arranging skills as well. They were pushing the envelope and breaking new ground musically. Clapton, Beck, Page, Howe, Morse and others were all about the music. In 1978 a new guitar hero came out with a new show off style and a new message that influenced countless 80s hair bands. These bands all got caught up in the look and lifestyle but lost track of the music. They all wanted to look and sound alike because the culture was telling them that real guitar players wore makeup and spandex pants. The movie "Decline of the the Western Civilization" features a lot of these glam metal wannabes. Of course the music industry is partly to blame. All of the A&R people started looking for the next Poison or Bon Jovi, the guitar mags would only put you on the cover if you looked the part, so many of the young players got suckered in and felt the ONLY way to make it in music was to conform and act the part. Of course it was only a matter of time before the fans would get sick of the sameness.

Then came Grunge. These guys who were disillusioned with the status quo put the focus back on the music (debatable, I know) and did it their own way without trying to fit into a narrow formula. Being a schooled musician became unfashionable because the new punks were pushing the boundaries again and not desperately trying to fit in. The problem is that the Monster of the Music Industry still wants to make lots of money, so when the styles changed they disposed of the acts that no longer made money and started signing Grunge clones. That got old real quick, so now we are starting all over again with rap metal. The musicians who will stand the test of time will be the ones who don't try so hard to fit in. A lot a younger players are now discovering the greats of the 60s and 70s and can look at the history of pop music from a broader perspective. I believe respect for high quality musicianship will soon return with the next generation.

 

[This message has been edited by Bill V (edited 06-27-2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by Bill V (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Uh Clem]

I've recently seen Bill Frisell, Fred Frith, Dave Brubeck, Herbie Hancock, Lee Ranaldo, Thurston Moore, David Gilmore, Robert Fripp -and that drummer with Frisell's last tour - damn he was a cymbal magician.

 

Not sure if I ever thought about any of these people as heroes - virtuosos would be my label, but even the seniors of the group are still more amazing than Kreskin http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Maybe a lot of todays newer music genres don't rely on virtuosity as much as technical prowess and imagination. Still, to me, nothing cuts to the chase like a sax, guitar, keys, bass, drums - any of them done exceptionally well is a surprising treat.

 

But...Where's the next Jimi or Stevie Ray - I mean really - no wannabes like that hyped up kid what's his name.

 

I haven't heard 'em yet and if you know of someone who is truly a master of the stratocaster that is alive, please point me to their CDs.

 

Oh, and seriously, if you have to put Trent on the list (and I am a big NIN fan), you have way gone fishing.

 

 

[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 06-27-2000).]

[Kris]

Have you seen or heard Derek Trucks? Definately check him out... Though he plays a gibson SG most of the time.

[Anderton]

I think Bill V's eloquent post has probably hit the nail on the head: we're in pendulum-land, and the pendulum will inevitably swing in the other direction. Also, the differentiation between being there for the music and being there for the hype is right-on. Just to give a bit of historical context, it wasn't until the late 70s, with the mergers, buyouts, etc., that music became Big Business. The music biz of the 50s and 60s was almost a mom and pop type of business. You could sell 50,000 and be considered successful; sell 250,000, and you ruled. Starting in the late 70s, if you sold only 250,000, you were off the label that was looking for a "blockbuster." It's so ironic that Alanis Morrisette's album sold "only" several million copies and is considered a failure because her first CD sold so much more. Since when did selling millions of CDs rate as a disappointment?

 

Quality musicianship is not enough to sell zillions of CDs: a musically-uneducated public responds more to image etc. Perhaps the heroes haven't gone away; they've just gone underground.

[alphajerk]

alanis moreofshit selling less albums was a failure because her music SUCKS and the record label figured they didnt sucker as many people the second time around, more people would become wiser the next release and so on eventually dwindling her sales to a where are they now VH-1 special. i cant believe she is acting now (totally ruined Dogma wiht her cameo, it was half decent until her part), somebody shoot her please.

 

how about tori amos who humps the piano when she plays??

[Uh Clem]

More Heroes - Peter Brotzmann Chicago Tentet + 2. I saw these guys last night at it was nothing short of incredible. If you are a jazz fan, then this is a show not to miss.

[Guest]

Definitely something to keep in mind... the instrumental virtuoso ("guitar hero") may be gone (for the moment from "pop" music, but is alive and well in many other forms... jazz, classical, bluegrass, etc.

[gigeditor]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I think Bill V's eloquent post has probably hit the nail on the head: we're in pendulum-land, and the pendulum will inevitably swing in the other direction. Also, the differentiation between being there for the music and being there for the hype is right-on. Just to give a bit of historical context, it wasn't until the late 70s, with the mergers, buyouts, etc., that music became Big Business. The music biz of the 50s and 60s was almost a mom and pop type of business. You could sell 50,000 and be considered successful; sell 250,000, and you ruled. Starting in the late 70s, if you sold only 250,000, you were off the label that was looking for a "blockbuster." It's so ironic that Alanis Morrisette's album sold "only" several million copies and is considered a failure because her first CD sold so much more. Since when did selling millions of CDs rate as a disappointment?

 

Quality musicianship is not enough to sell zillions of CDs: a musically-uneducated public responds more to image etc. Perhaps the heroes haven't gone away; they've just gone underground.

 

MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE: Hootie sold better than four million copies of their second record and it was considered a huge failure because the first one sold 14 million.

[Doug Robinson]

My concept of "heroism" is actually a reflection of what I am personally trying to accomplish, only doing it far better.

 

My heroes, and i do have them, have all achieved more than being technically proficient on an instrument. I am awed by many players in terms of chops, and playing as many instruments as I do, I have some appreciation for what it took for great drummers, keyboardists, guitarists, and vibists to get to that level.

 

But that is another thing altogether from being a hero. I reserve that mindset for truly versatile artists who push themselves creatively--they work in diverse musical formats and styles, they never seem to be sitting still. It's irrelevent whether I like each new project or not--as long as it is quality work, I accept it and wait for the next.

 

Some examples, some more consistent than others:

 

John McGlaughlin

 

Pat Metheny

 

The late Don Grolnick

 

Jaco Pastorius--not only a revolutionary electric bassist but also a terrific composer, bandleader, drummer, and as I recently heard, quite an interesting pianist

 

Brad Meldhau--now here's a guy who almost made it in just on his incredible piano playing! Luckily, I have much respect for his composing so i don't look like a complete hypocrite!

 

Outside of jazz, Joni Mitchell is a hero of mine. I haven't flipped over everything she's done, but it always seems like the best she can do, and often it's trancendent

 

The Coen Brothers are up there too.

 

One of the biggest difference between how I felt about my heroes in the 60s and 70s and now is...puberty.

[colonelrusteryahoo.com]

you wanna check out some real heroes - not just guitar or keyboard but overal music kings - check out the boys from mr bungle and all their side projects (secret chiefs 3, trio convulsant, fantomas, maldoror...) - sheer creative genius and musical gymnastics - mike patton has got to be the most badass singer to emerge in rock - his versatility and imagination seem boundless - try spruance is a nutcase and an interesting multi-instrumentalist, trevor dunn is a phenomenal bassist and "song" writer....

guitar heroes? => never forget buckethead - his songwriting is lame but his chops are unparalleled and his live act is hilarious

a lot of the great "heroes" are just not that interesting or creative song/music wise - they can play but the music is weak - look at steve vai - he used to blow your mind, now it's just weak music full of chops, al di meola has whimped out, robert fripp and adrian belew still kick ass but we also have a rough idea of what they will sound like - i agree with some of the other statements - the heroes will come back but it will take a while - my heroes never were the "shredders" - i was more into geordie (killing joke), piggy (voivod), the edge and others who i thought were more interesting than technical...

[THE MIX FIX]

Well I got your answer right here.

 

Don't you actually have to know how to "PLAY" an insturment, to be a "Hero" on it? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

On all of the sessions that I've done the last few weeks, the keyboard was just a necessay evil to trigger the samples when there weren't enough pads on an MPC-2000. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

And guitars? Don't they have samples of those? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

If a few people actually LEANED to play Music, MAYBE, there would be a chance that we would get a few good players.

 

But for now, let the samplers, computers, and turntables rule!!

 

At least they SOUND the same as they do on Nintendo, or while "Living La Vida Loca. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

------------------

Bob.

[briahworldpath.net]

all these posts have some great points.

is there any appreciation for what lies ahead of us as

mixers/engieers/musicians/performers,or shall we be dammed to weep over the decaying carcus of what we've always viewed as "heroics" in the music industry.

 

perhaps we need some new "heros".

 

a new day is upon us.

 

can the general populace enjoy music that is not spoon fed to the by the "industry/media" music that is free of the unseen barriers that have become present over the last 2 decades.

[jso6mailcity.com]

We may be at a musicians' nadir with respect to heroes, but then what do you expect if there is really nothing!!! new in terms of style in playing, grunge acts were those groups trying to play like led zeppelin but really did not do anything that wasn't already done by those groups and the folk-rock/bluegrass/country guys, maybe nastier lyrics. How different in musicianship are the mariah carey albums from the Gladys Knight and the pips or the stevie wonder albums. Once upon a time, the Classical guitarist was A1 compared to those who played electric guitars, but were they really better musicians? Or the so called experts said the beatles don't know how to sing but who cares?!! We have to see that there is nothing really new about music that revolves on the 12 tones. the only really new things happening are the rap/rap metal, because of the technology and genuine angst that they have, but who needs musicians to do that stuff, all they need is a computer/sequencer, a geek with imagination and a good Engineer(that's you guys!!). Trent Reznor vs. Chick Corea? Programmer/sequencer heroes are the order of the day. But tell you what, it's all a cycle. the hit styles will circle around because there is really nothing new that has never been done before, they're all variations of one theme or another. For want of a more live feel, the rap artists created rap metal so that those guys playing a zillion notes could get more (unfatigued) ears to listen to them. You'd think they were the first to rap!!! try listening to opera in between the songs. You have to go back to the definition of heroes. People who save us from?(boredom)People who inspire us(to bash our moms?) or people who play an instrument with such distinction as to make us(or your kids) pick-up and learn such instrument and in so doing, sort of save that instrument from oblivion. Those guys cannot be found in the mainstream and limelight of this multi-billion dollar recording industry. These are the guys a few blocks from the house you hear play just for the pure music or the guys you call in for a session to play acoustic keyboards on a song in an otherwise mainstream album with nothing but just what they hear right there and then. otherwise if you ask the people around, what is amazing in the music today, are the machines not the musicians. In a rush project, would you spend two hours to locate/call your drummer if you had steve gadd to session for you from the CD? A lot of emerging icons out there are quite frankly, disgusting or cheesy and unfortunately that is what is mostly being offered today with few exceptions. I'd like to hear young new group comparable to say Steely Dan?. Or maybe its because the major form of music today is the +/-3 min. commercial song as compared to the more complex variety in the previous eras. We hear some playing that blows our mind and then we realize that it was a plugin that gave us the feeling and virtousity and the player was a zillion miles and years away transported to us by a CDrom!!. Someone will definitely emerge from the underground to show us a thing or two. Music is emotion and the heroes are those that makes us feel the most, It is not that there are no more heroes , it is that there are so many of similar styles that very few of us could agree completely. Will the next Paganinni please step forward....

---joel

[THE MIX FIX]

Joel:

 

Good post!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

------------------

Bob.

[briahworldpath.net]

i agree a "great post" from joel.however lets just write Trent off as a "has been" w/no more original ideas. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

 

somone please drop some of "Bitches Brew" into the mix in place of this trance s#@t and then maybe music will be fun again.

[JohnBartus]

This thread comes along at a time when I've been doing serious thinking about what music was vs. what it has become. This may be part of an explanation as to why there are no more heroes -- it's simply because music just isn't as an important part of our lives anymore.

 

I'm not suggesting that the last statement necessarily refers to the people on this board. Music, in all its diverse forms, will always be an essential part of our lives. Just take a look at the general public, however, and the part music plays in their lives.

 

For those of us old enough to remember, we used to get together and have album listening parties. There would be a combination of brand new vinyl discs and classic records, along with wine (and smoke), and people would really get into the music. When was the last time this happened to you?

 

Music has become way too much of a commodity in our modern digital age. We don't want just music anymore -- we want the total multimedia experience! Just listen to a record?! Hah! None of us has time for that anymore.

 

If you were old enough to come of age in the 60's or 70's, you'll remember that live performances were a big deal. Audiences respected people who could make music, and musicians were the featured entertainment, even in the local scene. Today, live music is simply a background for bar conversations, pickup joints, or dinner (and is most always too damn loud!). For those of you still in the club scene, you'll know that the pay scale hasn't risen substantially since the early 80's.

 

Music seems to have lost its importance and relevance in today's society. Record labels don't encourage artists to explore and create -- they just want their money. I certainly don't wait with bated breath for the next Whitney Houston or Backstreet Boys CD the way I used to anticipate the next Dylan or Steely Dan album. With a few exceptions, the music foisted onto us by the record labels is fluff, "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." And if the music is meaningless, why would anyone celebrate the talent of Whitney's touring keyboardist or studio guitarist? I'm sure that they can play their asses off, but who really cares in that context? And why would anyone be inspred to take up guitar because of that "cool riff" buried in Whitney's mix?

 

Craig, I'm hoping that the pendulum does indeed swing around again. Unfortunately, until music somehow regains some relevance and stature -- until it becomes important again -- we'll likely see no heroes emerge from today's music-as-commodity world.

 

------------------

John Bartus

Radio Active Productions

We Make Great Radio Happen - Guaranteed.

1-888-93-RADIO

www.radioactivedigital.com

[alphajerk]

music isnt as important in peoples lives because its just isnt as exciting. there is definately some. im awaiting the new clutch album but due to release dates, im not sure how long i will have to wait. sometimes record labels even shelve projects. music made never to be heard. who is the music for anyways? their backpocket or for the fans? money is ruining music to a good extent. accountants and lawyers. society is probably as much to blame. tv too.

 

oh well.

[Sergievsky]

WELL....MY keyboard hero has always been my organ teacher. hehe. How awful that sounds. But that guy can play. And growing up without a father he was as close to a mentor and father figure as I'll ever have. So let's all give credit to the teachers shall we. Anyway, he eventually made millions after making the E! for the DX7, and later on got disillusioned with all the crap from the corporate world. (getting screwed by the Japanese can do that to anyone). Last I heard he's a fireman. Hey Steve! you out there??!!!!

[Anderton]

>>MY keyboard hero has always been my organ teacher.<<

 

What a great answer. Reminds me of the star being interviewed who was asked "If you could have dinner with anyone, who would it be?", expecting an answer like "Madonna" or "Christ" or something like that. The guy thought about it for a second and said, "My father. I'd do anything to be able to speak with him just one more time."

 

Sounds to me like you have your head screwed on right when it comes to deciding who should be a hero. Are you talking about Steve Kellogg, by any chance?

[Sergievsky]

Yeah! You know him?!! I lost touch because I've been away from the States for so long, and when I do fly in it's in Chicago and not California. Does he even get involved with Grey Matter Response anymore? wow. this is freakin me out. That guy's quite a character. Tell him Raul Mitra (dats me) says hi.

[Anderton]

I don't know him, just remember him from trade shows when he was doing the E! board. Seemed like a decent guy.

 

But to relate this to the topic -- it's probably the personal heroes, like what you mentioned, that matter far more than whoever gets put on magazine covers each month. The people who are changing the world the most, more often than not, are in the background. Think how much Bob Moog changed the entire fabric of this industry...

[briahworldpath.net]

I like these last few posts. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

The more I think about it, the real "heros" in my life of music have been the musicians/friends who were always willing to lend a helping hand to further my musical knowledge.

 

Thank-you for all your help, everyone who ever took the time. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[jso6mailcity.com]

I think we all know where our heroes are but to those who don't have any yet, there's a hell of a lot of decidedly cheezy choices being shoved down their throat while the really great guys that are probably a must-listen will be recorded for the purpose of not being pushed to the forefront

[Guest]

I'd put Talvin Singh, DJ Cheb I Sabbah, a feature on reggae keyboards, some goa/trance folks, Derrick May, Kraftwerk, Count Basie.

[Guest]

If anyone was fortunate enough to see the latest Allan Holdsworth tour, I think you'd agree that he is as close to the 'hero' status as any guitarist. Not to mention simply incredible playing from Gary Husband & Jimmy Johnson!

 

As far as keyboards go - David Rosenthal is playing with the newly reunited Happy The Man (replacing Kit Watkins). HTM was a tremendous prog ensemble from the late 70s. They had 2 albums on Arista produced by Ken Scott. Both (thank God) were finally re-released on CD by OneWay records. If you have a chance to see the band, do it! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

A 'hero' to me is - a musician who inspires one to listen and play music in a fashion they had not previously considered. A musician who speaks with a unique voice that changes the listener's musical perspectives.

 

A list of those I think fall into this catagory -

 

Guitar - John McLaughlin, Adrian Belew, Jimi, Jeff Beck, Robert Johnson ...........

 

Keys - Jan Hammer, Herbie Hancock, Kenny Drew Jr., George Duke, Andrew Hill, Kit Watkins, David Sancious......

 

Drums - Tony Williams, Trilok Gurtu, Vinnie Colaiuta, Gary Husband........

 

Bass - Jimmy Johnson, Tony Levin, Jaco, Jeff Berlin .......

 

Sax - 'Trane, Kenny Garrett, Michael Brecker...

 

As you can guess, fusion, jazz and old prog rock is what I grew up listening to.

 

[This message has been edited by billmusic@theglobe.com (edited 08-16-2000).]