"Magic" takes - fact or fiction?

[Anderton]

I have a theory about "magic takes," those spontaneous moments where someone records something and it seems really cool. I invite your comments on the following...

 

I think the whole idea of "magic takes" developed during the days of analog recording, when you didn't have undo buttons. Someone would do a scratch vocal, you'd record over it, and then because you couldn't compare the new version to the old, unless the new take was absolutely killer, the first take became romanticized as "The one that got away."

 

Now we have digital, and unlimited backups. Lately I've been pretty scrupulous about keeping original versions, because of fear that newer versions might not be as spontaneous. You know what? The re-cut versions invariably end up better than the originals.

 

This isn't to say that ALL re-cuts are better. Usually what happens when I start as session to re-cut a vocal is the first few attempts are okay, then I hit my stride and something really good happens, then I go too far and the take deteriorates.

 

But if I go back to the same tune a week later, it's almost certain the same pattern will occur. This time, though, the good take will be better than the previous "good take." If I come back a month later, the good take will be even better...If I take the song out on the road and then re-cut, it will go up one more notch.

 

So I think a lot of this "magic take" thing is a leftover from the days when we couldn't undo. What about you? If you archive your different versions, do the later ones end up better than the old ones?

[alphajerk]

i believe in the magic take. except my problem is that i have some of them on less than desirable mediums. it really didnt get away but was halfway caught. i also have this KILLER take and in the middle of this extended jam, the tape runs out. it hurts to listen to the tape having it stop everytime. god i wish i got the whole thing. im totally referring to the playing here. the recording turned out crappy enough, 4track cassette for those who care.

 

i have also been playing in magical sessions where the recorder wasnt running. but that is subjective as to if it really sounded better or not.

[Uh Clem]

The takes I think are Magic are immediately astonishing when you play them back and everyone says "holly shit!" right off the bat. Ovetime, they seem even more amazing. "How'd you do that?" "Uh, I dunno."

 

I've been there myself - layed down some keys that I could not reproduce if my life depended on it.

 

Doing a retake would be the last thought. Accidentally erasing a Magic Take would be punishable by death.

 

Even if the media is older and there's hiss or a buzz - Some things are what they are - like you don't even have the right to touch them - just your job to take care of them.

 

[This message has been edited by stevepow (edited 06-08-2000).]

[staupephotmail.com]

I am one of those guitar players that can't seem to find insiration if I have to do something too specific. Everything I do is improvised 75%+. Most of the recordings that I am proud of I couldn't reproduce again if my life depended on it. If I am being paid by the hour, I get real irrate if the engineer doesn't record every take, especially the warm-up, level checking ones, which often are where I do my best work. If time is not a factor I think I can always do it better, "just give me one more shot", and I'll go create another Magic Take. I used to be real insecure about my playing because of this, but when I saw Led Zep I realized, "Hey Page can't play his solos either", and I got over it. For an improvizer I think the "Magic Take" is for real. I have been taken to task by some engineers for this attitude. One in particular wanted to know what I was going to do if I was asked to tour and had to do the solo again. I said I would do what most great rock guitar players do on tour, I would suck ( notice that I said "most", I am aware that some can pull it off).

[lwilliam]

When I'm recording vocalists or other instrumentalists, there seems to be a "curve" where the 1st take is not very good, the 2nd gets better, etc. and they reach optimal emotional impact at about takes 3 or 4, after which the performer starts to go downhill and become more mechanical and less inspired.

 

Sometimes they'll get a "second wind" after about 10 takes, and obviously, different performers peak at different times, but in my experience, takes 3 or 4 usually are the best.

 

YMMV...

 

 

 

------------------

Larry W.

[Guest]

I sort-of believe in magic takes. In many sessions the guitarist's first solo was excellent, and then I would let him talk me into burning the take and doing another. And in most cases it did get better. Usually a lot better.

 

Actually the "spontaneous magic takes" that I've kept the most were mistakes that ended up becoming happy accidents.

 

Rich...

[Anderton]

Originally posted by Richard V. Wielgosz:

Actually the "spontaneous magic takes" that I've kept the most were mistakes that ended up becoming happy accidents.

 

 

Yes, it's important not to have such a preconceived notion of a part that you're not open to those happy accidents.

 

By the way I also agree with the post about live playing producing magic takes. There is indeed something about playing live...for this context, what I do is basically record everything and edit it down into something more compact. Miles Davis and his crew were masters at this kind of editing of what was mostly live performances.

 

BTW I didn't mean to imply that there weren't such things as magic takes, it's just that sometimes it takes me a lot of tries to get there . I'm more interested in those who capture some magic moment right out of the box, which cannot be improved upon in subsequent performances.

[Guest]

"Magic takes?"

 

Depends on the talent. Some performers just get worse the more you talk to them. Grab it quick or lose it.

 

Other performers listen and learn. "Hit that note with more intention." "OK." "Grab that one and make it sing." "Cool, great idea!" It all depends on who you're working with.

 

Job one: LISTENING!!!

Job two: LEARNING!!!

 

Do both continuously and people will think your takes are VERY magical.

[Guest]

P.S.

 

Or you can just do what one of my favorite co-worker/producers does. SCREAM at the talent when they don't give you what you want.

 

I pointed out to him that this doesn't win you any buddies or gain you more contracts... or get you any better takes. His response, "Screw that. Losers like that should get used to being abused. They deserve it. I don't wanna work with any of them or their bro's anyway!"

 

Ouch!!! Not my style... but he has a point. Life is too short to work on projects you don't believe in with artists you don't respect... Think about it.

 

The REAL professionals that come in my studio make my job SO EASY!!!!!! Search for 'em in your neck of the woods. It's worth it. It takes extra time to find the coolest projects... and MAN is it worth it!!!!!!!

 

"Magic Takes" start with "Magic Performers."

[Guest]

P.P.S. Does Clapton ever play anything you couldn't memorize and play cleaner? But he felt it in his heart and made his guitar sing... in real time... Think about it.

 

HEART still beats tech... and I LOVE tech.

[Guest]

Originally posted by stevepow:

The takes I think are Magic are immediately astonishing when you play them back and everyone says "holly shit!" right off the bat. Ovetime, they seem even more amazing. "How'd you do that?" "Uh, I dunno."

 

I've been there myself - layed down some keys that I could not reproduce if my life depended on it.

 

Those moments are indeed signs that there is magic in life. Where the things you do trancends your own (known) abilities. I've done a few of those and I consider myself blessed by all powers that be that I have experienced even one of them.

 

To get slightly off topic here, I think the world wold be a better place if more people experienced those moments in whatever craft they are involved in.

 

Peace, love and understanding ;-)

 

Mats Nermark

[staupephotmail.com]

Originally posted by bfury@romp.com:

P.S.

 

 

>I pointed out to him that this doesn't win you any buddies or gain you more contracts... or get you any better takes.<

 

 

Just my opinion, but you should have stopped at this point. It was a good one. When in the studio, the producer owes it to his client to find a way to get the most out of a given situation. If he did not wish to work with someone in the future because of lack of talent then don't work with them in the future! This is incredibly immature!!! I don't think the Producer here had a good point at all. He must have been a pretty influencial person for you to find some good in his methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would bet the producer didn't like what the musician was doing so he tried to get him to do what he thought he should do. If he needed something specific, then chart it out and have the player read it. No big deal. I could be way off base here, but would be curious to know the situation in the case you mentioned.

 

You are correct about talented Performers. Some seem to just have lots of magic takes in them and it doesn't take much to get a good track out of them. Some folks just gel with other folks, when you can find them keep em.

[Guest]

He's from Brooklyn. It's just his personal style. He blows up fast and cools off just about as fast. The talent was copping an attitude and deserved it.

 

He's a good producer and I'm not namin' names. So don't ask.

[staupephotmail.com]

Originally posted by bfury@romp.com:

He's from Brooklyn. It's just his personal style. He blows up fast and cools off just about as fast. The talent was copping an attitude and deserved it.

 

He's a good producer and I'm not namin' names. So don't ask.

 

 

That's cool. It sounded a lot worse in your 1st post. I am a bit sensitive about this because I once worked with a producer who would start acting like an army sargent if he wasn't getting from me what he was hearing in his head. Now I am a very patient person and I will do anything you ask. In fact, I love the challenge of taking an idea someone has and trying to flesh it out for them. But raising your voice and shouting as a technique for encouragement sucks. If I was being a jerk, another story.

[Anderton]

This thread has gotten me thinking...

 

I remember interviewing a Very Famous Group (no names, you'll see why) being produced by, at the time, a Very Famous Producer. He was constantly on their case, showing disgust for what they did, generally prodding them mercilessly. They accepted this because his constant pushing did in truth reveal some of their weak points, and they were willing to put up with his particular style.

 

Other producers are more oriented toward coddling and kindness, hoping to get a magic take that way.

 

What do YOU think is the best attitude a producer can have to cause an artists to deliver that fabled magic take?

[Guest]

If I'm getting mediocre results, cliched playing form an instrumentalist, I just keep insisting that they do it over again until they do something interesting and exciting. It's frustrating for the instrumentalist because they don't know what I'm looking for. I don't either, I'm looking for something out of the usual. The player is the one who usually gets upset and excited. I don't tell them that they're playing poorly, I just insist that cliches are unacceptable. Eventually, it might take a half hour or so, the player abandons his or her typical approach and we get a gem. Ialso, have players do multiple takes. I take the phrases that sound really good and arrange them in a compositional manner. Makes the player seem like a genius.

 

With singers, I stress that that they have to sing rhythmically with the music, and have to think in phrases. That they have to give each phrase an emotional reason. That they need to form an emotional image that gives meaning to the phrase. (redundant?) That oftens works. I also insist that singers be comfortable with what they're singing and that stretching out past their range hardly ever sounds good.

 

Joe

[staupephotmail.com]

Originally posted by jtegan@tiac.net:

. I don't tell them that they're playing poorly, I just insist that cliches are unacceptable. Eventually, it might take a half hour or so, the player abandons his or her typical approach and we get a gem

Joe

 

I would like working with you! Being pushed is never a problem for me, being shoved is.

 

I think a GOOD producer is one who can handle different personalities. The GREAT producer is probably one that sticks with his natural tendency and lets the chips fall where they may, and if they get lucky He/She will end up with a talented group that gels with their style. George Martin and Phil Spector being the Yin and Yang examples. But personaly , I HATE producers that think if they hit you hard enough you will produce something that is beautiful. I have been treated this way, and yes I did come up with the needed part. But I promise you I would have gotten there in a few more takes without the power play. The example given by Craig shows that it CAN work in a big time situation as well, but one wonders if the producer HAD to use degrading comments to get results or could he have used forcefulness without resorting to insults? I think he could , but we may never know.

[Dembones_dup1]

While it's not my first choice, I usually end up producing by default. I find that turning up the humor early keeps the client from getting bored and keeps things light. For example I have a folder of over 100 outtakes just a mouse click away - Clips from previous sessions with artists saying things like "Oooo, that stunk" or "Let's do that again," to the downright absurd. If the client does make a gaff, I'll occasionally fire off an outtake that says exactly what I'm thinking, but in a way that keeps the client from getting discouraged. They usually crack up...

 

------------------

Demian Norvell

AppleSeed Studios

Ruch, OR

[Anderton]

>>With singers, I stress that that they have to sing rhythmically with the music, and have to think in phrases...That they need to form an emotional image that gives meaning to the phrase.<<

 

Bingo! I worked with a producer once named Karen Peterson who improved my vocals 100%. She did this by taking the lyric sheet, and going over it line by line with me, marking up with various colored pens, double-underlining the words that really needed to be emphasized, that kind of thing -- just like what you're talking about, although it was more from a technical than an intuitive standpoint. But once I assimilated those changes, the results were more emotionally nuanced vocals.

[Anderton]

>>For example I have a folder of over 100 outtakes just a mouse click away - Clips from previous sessions with artists saying things like "Oooo, that stunk" or "Let's do that again," to the downright absurd. If the client does make a gaff, I'll occasionally fire off an outtake that says exactly what I'm thinking, but in a way that keeps the client from getting discouraged. They usually crack up... <<

 

Brilliant. I have to remember that one!!!

 

I have a sneaky story about getting a take once. The artist I was working with was playing too technically, it sounded fine but lacked an emotional element of which I knew she was capable. After she did a take that she thought was really good but I didn't like, I paused for a second, then said in a totally crestfallen way, that I'd forgotten to punch record and that I was terribly sorry. She felt bad that I felt so bad, and wouldn't you know it, the next take had all the technical chops of the previous one, but was much more emotional because she was taken out of the "performance" mindset and was more concerned about doing a good take so I wouldn't look like an idiot for not pressing record. And of course, I had pressed record, with the track as a backup just in case...but to this day she still doesn't know what I did.

[alphajerk]

if i wanted a drill seargent, i would of joined the military.

 

i think the best producer is the wall flower. making sure its some good stuff. making the band feel comfortable. who listens. offers suggestions only when needed. cracks a whip on the engineer though, making sure the sounds perfect.

[Dembones_dup1]

Originally posted by alphajerk:

i think the best producer is the wall flower. making sure its some good stuff. making the band feel comfortable. who listens. offers suggestions only when needed...

 

 

That's perfect. I didn't realise how much psychology is involved in producing. In fact, I've found that the psychology involved is the single biggest factor in getting the most out of a client. The studio is a very intimidating place for anyone, but especially for stage musicians. It's a big job to make them feel comfortable.

 

------------------

Demian Norvell

AppleSeed Studios

Ruch, OR

[jso6mailcity.com]

different strokes for different folks!!!

The best producers are the best character readers or pschycologist. They may rant and rave or coax and coddle but in the end if they truly need to get a good take, other than a truly,great talented artist, a good pschycing will deliver the good take. With the endless possibilities of technology, the more tech you get the less magical it gets. The nuances/small discrepancies can do make the take, otherwise we'll just sequence the stuff including the oohs and ahs that we sampled from the all-male-vocal quartet down at the bar.

Magical takes? when you absolutely did nothing on the take and it already emotes to you!! They still occur!!!

[THE MIX FIX]

Originally posted by jso6@mailcity.com:

Magical takes? when you absolutely did nothing on the take and it already emotes to you!! They still occur!!!

 

What Pro Tools Plug-in do you have to use to get that to happen? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif

 

 

 

------------------

Bob.

[jso6mailcity.com]

well... not absolutely...

but.... er... just the great artist you are tracking...

 

joel

[virtual.rayprodigy.net]

I agree with Craig's point that you "work up" to tha magical take.It takes time to really get at the essence of what a piece of music is saying and performing it over and over and recording it a few different times in perhaps varying circumstances are all part of the gold mining process.A side note:how many agree with my feeling that in the majority of cases,a group or artist's 1st release is their best? Or if not the best,at least has a certain quality or energy to it that rarely if ever is matched by subsequent efforts? I'm bringing this up because I've come to the conclusion that this is often the case because of the chain of events leading up to that first release:the months or years of gigging and building a following,the melding of the personalities in the case of groups,the freshness of inspiration finally realised in tangible form.It's kind of like an eruption,the inevitable result of forces at work for quite some time before the event.

[Anderton]

>>A side note:how many agree with my feeling that in the majority of cases,a group or artist's 1st release is their best? <<

 

That certainly does seem to happen a lot. The same phenomenon happens with movies: how many times is the sequel better than the original? As the old saying goes, a musician has 15 years to make their first album, and only a year or two to make their second one.

 

However, there are exceptions. Miles Davis was always innovating, and to my ears, some of his later work is -- ahem -- miles ahead of some of the earlier stuff, which wasn't bad either. When an artist changes direction, it often recaptures an original feeling that renders the music vital and new again.

 

Perhaps a useful thread would be "How to Avoid the Sophomore Slump." What can artists do to stay fresh throughout their careers? I think one key is collaboration. Changing who you work with can provide fresh insights and ways of making music.

[benfuryix.netcom.com]

The kindest and most insincere thing I've ever said over talkback is, "Great! That'll do it!" Then I go find somebody who can actually get it done and make sure the first player NEVER finds out about it. Be true to the project and kind to the players. They usually deserve it. Music is inclusive, let's make our hearts expand to include that quality.