What comes after modes

[Wow]

What comes after modes I have been playing for a long time and need some input. If you know modes and understand that modes equate feel in a song(this is relative to each person), what is there past this? I have never found any books that talk about any type of guitar after this. When you get a basic or mid-level book, they talk about progressions and extended chords such as 13th this and so-on. Where does it end? I listen to a satch song and wonder,ok, he did this progression here and I understand that, but is there something that I am missing. I guess my insecurities come from the fact that I never attended a Ivey league musical college. I took guitar in college and often wonder if I have come as far as the people who inspired me. I know Jimi Hendrix never went to college for guitar but I would never consider myself as good as he was. If I listen to Malmsteen, then I am totally lost, but if I take away all of the harmonization effects on his guitar , it seems a little easier. I guess what I am asking is, at what point does a person say, O.k. I know enough. I think I need to concentrate on the song as a whole. The average listener could not tell me if it was a G Dorian or a A Lydian. Lets hear some input

[caiv]

I though that as a musician, you'll never know enough. if you master a genre and the theory behind it. find a new one. study polyrhythmic from Cuba, or Indian music. study the different scales used in Japans folkloric Music. or learn music for a different Instrument. think about transcribing all of Coltrain's Meditations album (ok maybe not meditations). there is so much you can gain knowledge from. Just think about this. how many possible 7 or 8 or 9 notes scales can derive from the western 12 tone cromatic scale? how many modes are there? what are its main chords? match that with different rhythms! This is why it piss me off when i hear someone saying that pretty much all has been played already, and that there is anything new !

[lovenara]

i think modes,scales are just tools to express your emotion it's up to you to decide whether you're enough or not for me ,i think music is like picture for popsongs ( those sweet 3,5th chords )you get a clear enough picture for those ordinary people out there but when you go deeper into those spaces between 3,5 you get modes,jazz stuff which is another kind of pictures for another group of people when i have enough of modes to notice that Vai,satch are lydian,yngwie is phrygian and also can compose mine use those theories i think i have enough if i go beyond that maybe i have to play difficult jazz and hardly have space in my PICTURE just my two cents istyle [url=http://www.mp3.com/istyle]www.mp3.com/istyle[/url]

[alcohol]

There are also diatonic and chromatic approch notes to chord tones which opens up endless possibilities. Then there are the approch notes to chord tones on extended voicings. Then there are multiple chords superimposed on singular chord changes techniques. But all that is just theory because it all boils down to the art of setting up expectations and making surprises. too many surprises and no expectations. Not enough surprises and the improvisation becomes boring.

[henryrobinett]

[quote]Originally posted by MisterMe: [b] If you had a map you would use it to help you find out where to go in unfamiliar territory. But if you think about how purposefully you travel about in your daily life. You went to the store. You came back home. Picked up the kids went down another familiar street to the ball park, then to McDonalds, then dropped by Blockbuster. Then dropped Herb's kids at their house. I mean a map could not possibly predict your useage of the roads in a real sense. A map was just a guide until you gained familiarity with the terrain. Helpful but just a map. Purpose and intent is more important. Train your ear to recognize what the notes are and what they mean to you. Follow your taste, learn the manual techniques on the guitar you need to articulate the ideas in your mind. I think it's helpful to think of it all as gaining FAMILIARITY and knowing how to predict correctly (subconciously and automatically like you do when you have normal conversation)what will happen when you play a given interval or phrase. :confused: :idea: [/b][/quote]Right on the button. I love the map metaphor. Reminds me of Charles Ives' hatred of starting and ending a piece in the same key. He'd say, and I paraphrase, "How many times is a person born, lives his whole life and then dies many years later in the same house?" Then alcohol: [quote] There are also diatonic and chromatic approch notes to chord tones which opens up endless possibilities. Then there are the approch notes to chord tones on extended voicings. Then there are multiple chords superimposed on singular chord changes techniques. [/quote]Yes. Upper, lower Neighbors, melodic embellishments, poly chords, super imposed modes, super imposed progressions and substitutions. Yes caiv, transcriptions, transcriptions and more transcriptions. Coltrane is a great one to assimulate. Patterns too. Licks! It's almost endless. But nobody has mentioned my favorite and the thing that gave me the deepest education on the guitar [i] BASICS[/i] and [i]fret board geography[/i] and that is [b]ARPEGGIOS[/b]. Gambale and other fusionoids perhaps gave them a bad name, but they're essential, far more essential to me, than modes. They're also about 500% harder. But knowing your arpeggios across the guitar neck gives you a solid foundation for chord tones any where on the neck at any given moment. I actualy [i]hate[/i] sweep picking arpeggios, but maybe that's because I don't do them that way. Arpeggios for me are very functional. The guitar is a constant, life time study. That's why it's both fun and exasperating. Best to get at it early before it burns you out too much. But it's all about [i] playing[/i]. If you try to use technique as an end you'll miss the point. You should play, play, play always and apply as much as is feasible and you can make musical, but don't force it, unless you're just practicing. It'll come out if it's going to.

[KenElevenShadows]

First of all, you can never know enough. There's no such thing as knowing too much. There is, however, such a thing as using too much of that knowledge and not enough of your heart. Learn as much as you can, but then when you play, let the music flow through you. You can use your knowledge as a "filter" and let everything come out naturally. Please note that I am really talking about playing music and not other bodily functions!

[henryrobinett]

Ken, absolutely. But what comes after and alongside modes? Tunes!! Songs! Application. Improvisation. Modes, arpeggios, scales, devices are not things just to be practiced in a room by themselves. You have to apply them to music or they never will becomes useful. And heart.

[Gtoledo3]

For me, it's constantly weighing the melodic degree of the scale against the harmonic degree of the scale ( the degree of the particular chord being played)- though it's done at a subconcious level- I don't sit around and ponder that crap ;) Ted Green(e?)'s Chord Chemistry, the Mickey Baker jazz books, and Schoenberg's theory of harmony, are the books that I got a lot out of as far as melodic and harmonic theory go. I don't really like to think in terms of modes- it's full on chromaticism for me.

[Wow]

Thanks to everyone for there input! All of the post add a little to the picture. Keep the ideas coming if you feel up to it.I guess what I have pulled from this thread is one can never learn enough. [quote] it's constantly weighing the melodic degree of the scale against the harmonic degree of the scale [/quote]Can you expand on this some? thanks again

[Gtoledo3]

Sure, C.M- To me, music revolves around tension and release. Cmajor scale- C D E F G A B C Cmajor "chord scale"- C Dmin Emin F G Amin Bdim C Music can really be about setting up tension, and then finally resolving it- most often by returning to the root chord of the key you are in. Soloing melodically can be very similar, in that phrases often resolve into the root note of the scale. For example, Tome Petty's "Here Comes my Girl" creates tension by pivoting between the V and IV chords during the verse, until it finally releases into the I chord for the chorus. SO, there are two elements(besides percussion) that can be used to resolve and create tension in your songs- the chords and the melodies. If you were getting into non- major scale chords, one could create familiarity by centering the melody upon the notes in the I chord. Similarly if one was playing over a static I chord, you could make the music 'move' by centering upon the notes in Dmin, then ascending to Em based notes, maybe then drifting to Bdim based runs to create maximum tension, then blasting into bending your high D note up to an E, to emphasize the major third of C. Each scale degree, melodic or harmonic creates a different amount of tension, in my mind. In a song in the key of C, a Dmin doesn't "feel like it's too far from home." A G major or B diminished seems to really really want to resolve back to C, or perhaps A min. There could be volumes written about this, and there has been, so I know my explanation is pretty simplistic- excuse me if I sound like a jerk off ;) I suggest all the previously mentioned books highly, and thinking about it some more, the Guitar Grimoire, and Keyboard Grimoire are pretty good too.