Sensational guitarist ruins the act

[LiveMusic]

I know of a band that is really, really good. One of my faves. And I've always wondered why they don't have a following. Well, for one thing, they play rockabilly, which I love but most people wanna hear Brown Eyed Girl and Mustang Sally, etc. I attributed it to that... that their music is not enough Top 40 b.s. for them to be locally popular as a dance band. Last night, I went to hear them. The guitarist, I must say, has to be, if not the best, one of the top two or three guitar pickers I've ever seen. Bar none. This mofo can smoke. I have never seen any picker's hands blur. This guy, I've seen them blur, it's so fast. He is simply amazing to me. And his tone is beyond compare. He plays a Gretsch, like George Harrison played. Or Brian Setzer. I don't know exactly how he does it but he sets up stereo and his tone is incredible. So, I'm sitting there listening through a couple of sets and it struck me. This guy plays too much. He overpowers the song. They played Honky Tonk Woman and it was like a relief. Finally, he shut 'er down and just played the regular riffs instead of 1,000 note riffs like they are nothing. Welcome relief. Mind you, this guy amazes me. I find myself grinning often as he plays, he does so much insane stuff. That sounds terrific. But it's too much. Overload. So, I was just curious. If anyone has ever had to deal with that. How in the world could you tame a guy like that? He is their personality. I'm sure they don't even see what I see. But if they did, how could you possibly get through to a guy like that? And I find this revelation interesting, as I've never noticed it before with them and have made this comment about another local guitarist. Same type thing. People have said, "But have you heard John Doe play?" And then I'd say I had and I'd tell 'em that he IS a great guitarist, he just plays too much. Now, I find my rockabilly buddy the same way.

[Bralalalalalalala]

You wouldn't know talent if it came up and bit you on the ass.

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by HomoSapien: [b]You wouldn't know talent if it came up and bit you on the ass.[/b][/quote]WELL!! Nice opening act from you Homo. One post and you set the bar lower than a snail trail. No originality, offensive and off topic. Please observe our catch and release policy when you leave the pond.

[Tedster]

Well, like to say welcome to our new troll. Let's see, hmmm...you have to take your place among the great trolls of musicplayer.com. Lusitano Vagabundo for one. Who's into posting the "Troll Hall of Fame"? Hey Duke...I've heard this kinda thing before. People overplaying mainly to show off. It's good that they have chops, and bad that they haven't acquired the finesse to show them off at the proper time. Is it a young guy? Usually it's the young guys.

[LiveMusic]

Tedster, he's about 30. Is that young? He's been gigging for many years, so I'm sure he won't change unless someone were to tell him. Because he doesn't recognize there being a problem. I think there's a problem. And the other guy I mentioned, he's about 40, so same for him. He plays Les Paul and man, he can smoke, too. But good gawd almighty, you have to let songs breathe. Every damn song, it's just too much lead guitar.

[SoundWrangler]

Too right, LiveMusic. Overplaying is a personality defect, & generally incurable. (Even though it can be amusing to overplay ONCE IN A WHILE! ;)

[Sylver]

I played with someone who just smoked the whole band. He was older and more experienced than we all were, and took a solo in just about every song(it was an original band). It was a shame because he had great rhythm chops to, but he liked to shred.

[Tedster]

Kinda like Keith Moon. Listen to, say, "Bargain". It's like a constant drum solo with the song going. Keith was the only one who could make that work. I've played with drummers that thought they should play like Keith Moon on EVERY song. No groove. It's like that with any soloist. It's gotta groove....

[Nawledge]

whats up Live, I think guitarist get away with it more because people really like to see that, were the rockabilly tunes originals or covers, anyway I hate more when a bass player plays to many notes

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]whats up Live, I think guitarist get away with it more because people really like to see that, were the rockabilly tunes originals or covers, anyway I hate more when a bass player plays to many notes[/b][/quote]It's like that Mozart movie where the King tells Mozart there's "too many notes" and Mozart says... "which ones should I remove?" Oh wait, that doesn't really make the point does it? Or is the point, if the guy playing thinks it's right, then it must be? Hmmmmmm... And what about those bass players. I say give 'em three notes and if they play any more than that... they're out of the band!!! :eek: :D :wave: guitplayer

[MattC]

I could go on and on about overplaying (actually, I usually go on and on when I am overplaying, but...) My old drummer was a phenom rock drummer. Big kit, fast double bass, metal sticks, the works. He knew he was good, and so did everyone else. After a few months and a couple dozen shows, he ended up being the band's personality. He used this to his advantage in band negotiations. No one would argue with him because he was so good. We are all great players (or so various people have told us) but not so much as to overshadow the drummer. It's frustrating... When I go to see a band, I want to see the band. I just went to a show a few weeks ago- Dream Theater and Joe Satriani. I watched Satch's set to see Satch (as a solo player with a backing band). I didn't watch DT to see a solo act, but rather a whole band. You gotta love solo players, but give the band time and space to play, to.

[Philip OKeefe]

I don't care how great the guy's tone is, and I don't care how fast he can play, or how well he can technically execute difficult runs... if he overplays, and if he doesn't have great feel (and part of "great feel" IMO is not just the phrasing but also knowing what to play - and when to play it - and when NOT to play) then IMO, he's NOT a "great guitarist". Period.

[henryrobinett]

Well basically I agree with Phil except the last part of the last sentence is a little too overblown for me. I think he [b]CAN[/b] be a great guitarist. But anyway, I resemble that remark. I've almost always overplayed. It's a malady born from having chops. It's taken me years to temper them. When I was still in high school I went through a period of putting sets of strings starting with 16 to 1) build up my chops and 2) [i] mainly [/i] force me to slow down. I've never [i]heard[/i] anyone telling me I overplayed. I think I had taste too, so perhaps that had something to do with it. I sometimes played what was not appropriate because I was always exploring the outer boundaries. I also have always played in bands where both the musicians in the band and the audience expected this of me. Needless to say the only time I've [i]ever[/i] played in a top 40 band was in high school. I've been in either original bands or jazz groups, for the most part. But it takes a lot of experience to know when to play [i]fast[/i] and when not to. I no longer put [i]any[/i] value on speed. It's simply not interesting to me. I very often don't play fast at all any more. None of the 4 CDs I've put out show any particular displays of speed. I'd always have to do another take if it did because it simply never stood the test of repeated listening, for me. If it's purpose was merely to drop a jaw it was gone. Consequently most of the people who loved to hear me play live were [i]always[/i] disappointed with my CDs a little. Chops need to serve the song. If you have a solo spot and you can explore the outer boundaries, step on the edge and show it to the crowd and it fits the purpose of the song and doesn't distract but adds then all is good. Sometimes you have to be the visionary, because obviously no one else is going to be, in this regard. So go with it, but exercise taste. I could never be the "[i]play this solo exactly like the record[/i]" kind of guy. Never, never, never, never, never. It's too bad. I might have learn something else in terms of structuring. But ultimately I've always stuck to my guns. I've never been fired for overplaying either, though I probably should have been. It would have been good for me. No one had the audacity to do it. I hate to say it, but I was always too good to be fired. But maybe I'm also selling myself short and being hyper-critical. I think every band I've been in has truly [i] liked[/i] my playing and silently forgave my excesses. So this guitar player [i] may not know some people think he's overplaying [/i]. If he gets the "You're an amazing guitar player" thing all the time and he knows he's one of the selling factors of the band this other message may not sink in. OTOH just go, listen and appreciate some truly amazing guitar playing from someone who hears music differently than the maddening crowd. Fuck the cookie-cutter musical society.

[deanmass]

Back in the day, Working at the illustrious Big Dudes' Music City, we had a term..."Woodling"..Ever Saturday, without fail, the 'Woodlers' woudl show up...and all f***ing....day......long......woodl-ee...woodl-ee...woodl-ee....Most could play like crazy, but just did not get it...Most could not function in a band environment because they could not play a basic blues riff without tossing in a woodle...In developing this bad habit, they miss something really really important about music....That the SONG is what people usually want to hear...The saddest thing is that their peer groups and family friends usually poison them with 'you play so well, play more..." Too bad....I think playing, especially lead, is like spice in food. just enough makes it something special, too much wrecks the dish...

[henryrobinett]

How true. I was lucky in that my training came in original pop bands where this was a mantra: "Everything must serve the song!" I think I got it.

[lrossmusic]

[quote]quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Nawledge: whats up Live, I think guitarist get away with it more because people really like to see that, were the rockabilly tunes originals or covers, anyway I hate more when a bass player plays to many notes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's like that Mozart movie where the King tells Mozart there's "too many notes" and Mozart says... "which ones should I remove?" Oh wait, that doesn't really make the point does it? Or is the point, if the guy playing thinks it's right, then it must be? Hmmmmmm... And what about those bass players. I say give 'em three notes and if they play any more than that... they're out of the band!!! guitplayer [/quote]I heard that Berry Gordy used to get on James Jamerson a lot about playing too much. Rumor has it that Jamerson would accomodate Gordy while he was standing right there in front of him but soon as Berry went back in the control room Jamerson would just go back to doing his thing. They say Berry would eventually just throw his hands up and let him play what he wanted. Of course Jamerson was more than your average great player. Personally I think some cats are so bad that they just can't help it. In Jamerson's case it worked but in many cases it might not. Take Art Tatum for example, I believe he sounded best just playing by himself.

[RobT]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: Hmmmmmm... And what about those bass players. I say give 'em three notes and if they play any more than that... they're out of the band!!! :eek: :D :wave: guitplayer[/QB][/quote]Spoken ... er written like a true guitar player :rolleyes:

[LiveMusic]

You guys have some very good comments. And I agree, Henry, that speed is not a big deal. When I read what you said, it kinda hit me. If I think of all the great songs, speed demon guitar licks don't make the song unless it's heavy stuff, which I don't listen to. To me, in pop, rock, country, blues, tone makes a guitarist shine. For instance, I'm sure many here wouldn't put Stairway To Heaven's lead guitar work up there as one of the top solos but to me, it is. I have always loved that. And if he were playing a gazillion notes a minute, it wouldn't be nearly as memorable. It's a shame one of the things bands would do who play gigs is to automatically hire a critiquer or maybe they'd have to pass a test or something. And stuff like this would be pointed out. Because, with this band, as much as I am awed by this guy, I honestly think this his chops are hurting them.

[henrysb3]

A huge number of musicians overlook dynamics as the emotional glue that makes great music. In a strict forte to pianissimo definintion, many would do well to stand back and think about the volume of one passage in relation to another. Consider the idea that just as wall-of-sound blasting eventually begets ear-ringing numbness, speed wizardry on any instrument loses its effect when that is all you hear. My first trumpet teacher, an old big band jazz man. emphasized tone above technique. What do you remember about Fur Elise - the difficult fast passages, or the sweet opening melody? Why does Eric Clapton remain preeminent while Ten Years After is thirty years gone? Clapton has chops, but he knows tone and dynamics to go along with it. Think of the effect of the wall of sound on the White Album that drops into: "And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." The back slapping positive reinforcement for blazing performance just might inspire a player to stay in the comfort zone of what appears to work. It just might smother other inspiration that's all around you.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by henrysb3: [b]A huge number of musicians overlook dynamics as the emotional glue that makes great music...[/b][/quote]I've said this repeatedly. Henry, this statement is the musical equivalent to the golden rule. It implies that every instrument or vocal part, every musician's role, is to support the song. Brilliant. Steve Vai has written, recorded and performed some phenomenol music. Unfortunately, he, Satch, even the modern lineup of Lynyrd Skynyrd, and others insist on extended solos that I like to refer to as musical masterbation. Very few of the audience "get off" on this. It's mostly for the player who does it. Ego and selfishness in action. There are some incredible extended solos, but they are a tiny percentage of longwinded performances we, as audience, have been subjected to. (p.s., this certainly happens in jazz, country, bluegrass and classical music, as well. It's not limited to rock.)

[Tusker]

Lotta wisdom on playing here. Thanks. Isn't it somewhat a matter of idiom? What I mean is that Keith Emerson's honky-tonk/blues antics are ok for a non-blues crowd if you know what I mean. There's a lot of rockers I have played with who admire jazz, but they don't know how to play fast without appearing to play fast. They don't know how to ease into phrases indirectly. Those tricks are there in the idiom. If you take a guy who practiced and practiced for years to be in a hair band, it's hard for the bloke to change. The idiom's got him. It would take lots of work to un-learn all that. It's hard to change how you approach something you love. Cheers, Jerry

[lrossmusic]

[quote] [b]There are some incredible extended solos, but they are a tiny percentage of longwinded performances we, as audience, have been subjected to. (p.s., this certainly happens in jazz, country, bluegrass and classical music, as well. It's not limited to rock.)[/b] [/quote]When Coltrane was with Miles he is said to have taken some extremely long solo's. When asked why, Trane said something like he was so into the music that he just couldn't seem to stop that easily. Miles suggested; "why not try taking the mouthpiece out of your mouth ?" (or something like that). :D Been hearing that story for years and I believe it too.

[Mark V]

Quoted by Phil. [quote] I don't care how great the guy's tone is, and I don't care how fast he can play, or how well he can technically execute difficult runs... if he overplays, and if he doesn't have great feel (and part of "great feel" IMO is not just the phrasing but also knowing what to play - and when to play it - and when NOT to play) then IMO, he's NOT a "great guitarist". Period. [/quote]Phil is right on the money.

[Skip_dup1]

I heard a story about Sting saying to some of the jazz cats he worked with, that the main difference between what they were used to and what he was asking is that, they wouldn`t have time to build up a solo-they had to take off at 90 degrees and land the same way. I agree with what people are saying, but keep in mind that most of us are thinking of a song as what the radio has been telling us a song should be-three minutes. I find, in virtually all live bands, a lask of `working` a song or a composition. Everybody gets up, blasts for three minutes and it`s over. The punk influence has been no help at all here. If a composition is really good, like a really good solo, it should build up, take you somewhere, peak and then glide down, not barge in like a party crasher, hit on the audience, eat all the snacks and then leave without a goodbye. But so many people are saying, `get in, say what you have to say then get out.` SOMETIMES that`s right, but not always. As far as overplaying, there used to be a term for that-`busy`. If someone`s that focused on their playing they should form a group around themselves-the (name here) band.

[The Bear Jew]

Ok.. I'm just another idiotic musician piping up with his totally worthless two cents, but..... I see really fast/technical guitarists, bassists and drummers all the time. They play fast. Really fast. They play stuff that's hard to do. Really hard to do. Whoopty-friggin-doo. I don't care unless it works with the rest of the band. As many folks here already mentioned, it doesn't mean much if it doesn't serve the song. When someone wanks all over the place, it showcases THAT player. The rest of the band (and the song) has to take a backseat to the douchebag with all the chops. I'm not saying there's no place for that kind of music -- some people really like "soloist" music. I'm not really one of them, but I can appreciate artists with chops. Personally, I find it boring. I like to walk away from a listening experience humming a melody, appreciating a band dynamic or reflecting on a cool turn of lyrical phrase. I never really care if a guitarist, bassist or drummer is overly talented -- they're not usually on the stage by themselves. If what they do stands out from the rest of the band too much, to me, it looks (and sounds) like crap -- unbalanced. No disrespect, but I probably would have watched the subject guy of the original post for a minute and left after he wanked his second wank. I don't have time for that nonsense. There are groupies who need shagging, rock that needs to be rolled and asses that need to be kicked. Looks like I'm the only one around who's willing to take care of that.

[Wrave]

I'll take tasteful over flashy anytime. Maybe I shouldn't even say "tasteful" cuz I've seen bands where a mediocre player provided the glue that held the whole thing together. And most of the time the flash player will not be missed but losing a tasteful player can ruin the band's sound completely. One of the toughest things for a band to learn is that their "sound" is a combination of things to which they all contribute. The Beatles were a prime example. Not a one of them was a standout flash player or singer. But taken all together, they rocked the world!

[Sylver]

[quote]Originally posted by skip: [b]If a composition is really good, like a really good solo, it should build up, take you somewhere, peak and then glide down, not barge in like a party crasher, hit on the audience, eat all the snacks and then leave without a goodbye. [/b][/quote]What a great analogy. "Yo buddy, got any more dip?"

[seclusion]

Hee hee.. That reminds me of a gig I did for a local band. They were recording a couple of tunes for a compilation CD.. Young guys.. The guitar player had the sound, rythmn was awsome, but he couldn't play solo at all.. So my buddy called me up. When I went in to set up as they rolled tape, I listened while I was tuning.. The next roll of the tape I had threw a few licks in and a solo in 2 songs. Packed up and left while the band went for a coffee break. $300.00 for that and I was out in a little over 15 minutes.. When I play with the guys, I find it soothing (as lead gtr) to not even play till the first chorus etc. But didn't we all go through that... "Listen to me" syndrome for a while.. It does help when a producer/teacher/buddy/wife/drunk, tells ya to shut-up once in a while.. Cause in the end we're all a bunch of dumb dumbs any ways. Bri

[strat0124]

It always cracks me up to see a soloist of any kind upstage the band, in essence blowing his wad at the first given opportunity. This is a good illustration Duke, cause being a shit hot "LEAD GUITARIST" ain't what makes it in a band.

[Tom Capasso]

So how do these "overplayers" get that way? As Tedster indicated, sometimes their young and full of themselves. I was in a band when I was 17 with a great lead player but when we did Zep's "Heartbreaker", the rest of the band went upstairs for a snack while he hacked away. In this guys' case, it sounds like he lacks the "refinement" (taste?) required to hold himself back. But why? Is it that the rest of the band doesn't have the chops to spread the "fills" around? Or is it that the rest of the band can't control him (as per Erik)? Maybe he has all the connections, or PA, etc. Or maybe the band likes it this way (even if others don't). Sorry Nawledge, I'm one of [i]those[/i] bass players. I don't play fast, but when I feel a need, out comes a riff. When I feel the song is flat, out comes an active part. If the band doesn't like it, we'll work to what suits the band. That has happened a lot less than you might think. The thing is that I play based on what I hear in the music. I'm a bass player, so there's no glory or even recognition in it for me!! Tom