Is it me ..or Reason 2 sounds from bad to very cheesy !!!

[vudoo]

Hi all, I heard so much about Reason 2 that i had to go out and bought a copy. I'm just fiddling around with it and playing some demo that came with the installer. I hope there's MUCH, MUCH more to it than what i heard so far because i find it sounding REALLY weak and the demos are sooo cheesy !!! I'm using it through my Digidesign ProTools HD hardware..i also tried it via ASIO ( using a Delta 1010 ). The first thing i notice is that the headroom is extremely low...it distorts very easily. Anyways, I'm very disappointed right now..

[thisDude]

I'm learning that Reason in the hands of a genius is probably more powerful than any other single piece of gear or software. I have the demo and it blows me away. Go to [url=http://www.reasonstation.net]REASON STATION[/url] . You can download reason files composed by users. There's even some "underground" artists lurking in there, like a certain skinny fatboy and a dude who plays in Left Field (but you didn't hear it from me). HINT: Check out some of the stuff by DIRTY HARRY. :D Now if it only had audio capabilities... :rolleyes:

[Beatheavy]

It's you! Reason is a very serious tool. With 2.0 and the addition of Malstrom and the new sampler it really kicks. I just literaly stunned my bandmates with a programmed drum part that I did on Redrum that sounds like me playing. I used sampled sounds from my own kit and it really rox. Can't say enough about it. Put it through it's paces, you won't be sorry.

[DJDM]

Yes the demo song is most cheezzzy! But ThisDude is right. It can completely blow hardware out of the water if you apply a little know-how to the process. If you experiment around a little you will not regret your purchase at all... Nice quick tip? If the Subtractor sounds a little thin, or you don't get enough "umph" from your Redrum kits remember that you can create as many instances of an instrument as your CPU can handle. Just do what traditional sound designers do: Layering. That with a little detuning goes a LONG way in Reason... ;) Best of luck, - DJDM

[Anderton]

<> Remember, what you're hearing from the outputs is UNMASTERED. Throw a little L1 on it and you'll be blown away. Headroom is an issue because your mixing so many signals together. So turn the amp volume up! Again, this is something where limiting and volume maximization really makes a difference.

[Brian T]

I would give Reason a big "A" on creative possibilities, and a basic "C" on absolute sonic quality. It just doesn't make me want to use words like "Big, Deep, Fat, Wide or 3D". Great creative tool. Nothing to write home about as far as the individual sounds. I'm not sure I've heard any sounds from Reason I don't think another hardware or software box could beat, on an individual basis. The magic of Reason is putting a bunch of pretty good sounding, very creative tools in one place and in an organized, well integrated fashion. But I would pretty much never fire Reason up as a pure synth module and expect it to exceed the best of the better, more specifically dedicated units, on a sound by sound basis. Regards, Brian T

[Anderton]

<> Have you played much with the Malstrom? IT definitely makes an original contribution to the synth scene. Quite something for totally off the wall pads. I ReWire Reason into Sonar and treat the synth outs like I would any others -- they might need a little EQ, delay, reverb, etc. But I get some pretty bitchin' sound.

[vudoo]

hihi...thanks everyone for your input..i knew with such a post, i will get hammered !!!

[aeon]

[quote][i]Brian T said:[/i] [b]I would give Reason a big "A" on creative possibilities, and a basic "C" on absolute sonic quality...Nothing to write home about as far as the individual sounds. I'm not sure I've heard any sounds from Reason I don't think another hardware or software box could beat, on an individual basis...I would pretty much never fire Reason up as a pure synth module and expect it to exceed the best of the better, more specifically dedicated units, on a sound by sound basis.[/b][/quote]If you are talking about v1.0, and specifically Subtractor, with its sparse multisamples and poor pitch interpolation routines, I absolutely agree. But to me, it sounds like you have not used v2.0. Maëlstrom is quite simply badass in terms of sound, and I consider myself a synthesis snob. ;) Maëlstrom -> ASIO -> Korg OASYS PCI -> ear = pure aural pleasure. :D

[vudoo]

oops !! sorry for that half baked post. Anyways, I got to play with Reason some more..here's what i think so far ( of course this is ONLY my opinion ). I totally agree with Brian T...i find it to be a cool little creative tool but the sound is weak and NO headroom !!!...Sorry Craig, but if i absolutely need to L1 something just so that it has some punches..then i know i'm in trouble, besides, i'm not a big fan of the L1 anyways..L2 is a much better limiter ( to my taste )..it's much more transparent. Some of the synth module is kind of cool but, again, it's not in the same league as the Virus, Nord Lead, JP-8080 sound wise....but having all the modules, very well laid out, all in one place is great for creating. Anyways, i'm sure i'll get more into it as i spend more time with it. There's one little piece of software that i bought at the same time as Reason that i REALLY dug is Abysynth...that thing sounds NASTY.

[vudoo]

oh i have a question. I have a Mac running ProTools HD and that's where my Reason is installed but integration between PT and Reason sucks so i though of installing it on my PC ( my PC is dedicated to GigaStudio )and somehow sync it to PT on my Mac...any suggestion so that they run in perfect syn, sample accurate ?? Thanks

[Brian T]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon: [b] [quote][i]Pimpbot2000 said:[/i] [/b][/quote]If you are talking about v1.0, and specifically Subtractor, with its sparse multisamples and poor pitch interpolation routines, I absolutely agree. But to me, it sounds like you have not used v2.0. Maëlstrom is quite simply badass in terms of sound, and I consider myself a synthesis snob. ;) Maëlstrom -> ASIO -> Korg OASYS PCI -> ear = pure aural pleasure. :D [/b][/quote]Well, you pretty much nailed it. I've got a copy (legit, may I add) of Reason 2.0 laying around here somewhere, but I've not played with Maelstrom yet. I have heard good things about that module from more than one person, so I bow to your opinions there. Still, the rest of the package from Reason 1.x just doesn't sound big to me. Maelstrom will be a welcomed addition. Doh, maybe I should load up 2.0? BT

[aeon]

[quote][i]vudoo said:[/i] [b]I have a Mac running ProTools HD and that's where my Reason is installed but integration between PT and Reason sucks...[/b][/quote]If you would like to stream Reason audio into Protools, you need to check out a piece of software that was developed to bridge the gap caused by a lack of ReWire support: It is called Refuse. http://www.refusesoftware.com/ The cost is only $29 USD. cheers, aeon :)

[aeon]

[quote][i]Brian T said:[/i] [b]Still, the rest of the package from Reason 1.x just doesn't sound big to me.[/b][/quote]Brian, I agree...in particular, I still can’t understand why Subtractor was ever released sounding the way it does! :rolleyes: That said, I found the real strength of Reason 1.x to be the idea-germination and -prototyping stage...for that, nothing else comes close. Still, ReCycle 2 + Reason’s Dr. Rex is a good time! :D I found I could maximize sonic quality by bypassing the internal mixer and sending the audio out via ASIO/ReWire, and doing processing elsewhere...and as I said before, my Korg OASYS is lovely for that. Maëlstrom really is a whole new bag...it’s like a softsynth mutant hybrid of a Waldorf Microwave II and an Access Virus...good times! :thu:

[DJDM]

Good points Aeon, Brian T, et al. But to me, the biggest benefit of Reason is it's ridiculously minimal CPU usage. I found that simply layering the Subtractor has a great effect on the sound. It seems to suffer from the same problem everyone complained about with the DX7 when it first arrived. Yes, on it's own it is a little thin. Add more of them. Detune slightly. Done. There are times when I don't need all of that depth in an arrangement anyway so having it a "little thin" is a good thing. And since it utilizes 32 bit floating architecture I just do my exporting through Cubase and boost the levels a bit. Sounds fine. The Malstrom really is amazing. I have had more fun tweaking and messing with that thing! You can run other instruments through it's filters for additional stages of insanity that are really hard to beat with just a couple of repluggs in the back. I would love to have the depth of an Absynth or other VST synths at times but the CPU usage is extreme with them as of yet and the way I work it is hard to do full arrangements with that much power consumption going on. To me Reason is the single most elegant/powerful package on the market right now. In various combinations there are single units that outshine it. As a unified product it is almost impossible to touch. My $.02 - DJDM

[aeon]

[quote][i]DJDM said:[/i] [b]to me, the biggest benefit of Reason is it's ridiculously minimal CPU usage.[/b][/quote]Interesting...I found that even with my relatively modest computer (Mac G3/500) and a busy arrangement, Reason would not move above 33% at any time...so I didn’t see the low CPU usage as a benefit, but a limitation! I wanted it to use 85% of my CPU, but do it by using better algorithms for filtering, effects and oscillation... This raises a larger issue regarding CPU use with plugs and the like...I don’t see low CPU as a benefit if the sound suffers...in fact, I wish more companies would do things like TCWorks Mercury-1...an outright CPU hog, but [i]damn[/i] does it sound great! [quote][i]DJDM said:[/i] [b]I found that simply layering the Subtractor has a great effect on the sound. It seems to suffer from the same problem everyone complained about with the DX7 when it first arrived. Yes, on it's own it is a little thin. Add more of them. Detune slightly. Done.[/b][/quote]If that works for you, cool, but for me it still does not address the piss-poor transposition quality and lack of samples in the wavetable...I mean, as you move up from the root of each sample you can hear the overtones getting fluxored...look at the output in a spectral analyzer, and you can easily see where the root samples are...plus, all of that damn aliasing! :eek: I dunno...it just isn’t worth it to me...I have far better synths available, and if I do want something to sound like digital abuse, I want it to sound like pleasing abuse. Subtractor is a total case of “you can’t polish a turd” to me. [quote][i]DJDM said:[/i] [b]I would love to have the depth of an Absynth or other VST synths at times but the CPU usage is extreme with them as of yet and the way I work it is hard to do full arrangements with that much power consumption going on.[/b][/quote]I guess that power consumption is part of the reason I am still using plenty of DSP-based hardware for sound generation, sound quality aside. Damn would Reason kick serious ass if it had a VST-Host module...insert the plug or VSTi of your choice, and the back of the module would automatically show the I/O possible. :D Also, do you run Absynth on a PC? I have run it on the Mac only, and the CPU usage is pitifully low...I wonder if that is because it is originally a Mac app. [quote][i]DJDM said:[/i] [b]To me Reason is the single most elegant/powerful package on the market right now. In various combinations there are single units that outshine it. As a unified product it is almost impossible to touch.[/b][/quote]Agreed 110%.

[DJDM]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon: [b][QUOTE] Also, do you run Absynth on a PC? I have run it on the Mac only, and the CPU usage is pitifully low...I wonder if that is because it is originally a Mac app. [/b][/quote]I "borrowed" it about six months ago and ran it on a PC. I did not run it on a Mac so I don't have anyway of comparing. I decided that while it sounded fanfreakintastic that I could not really use it and would eventually buy it when NI comes up with their "Reason killer", (we'll see...). ;)

[Anderton]

Okay, don't tell anyone, but here's my fatness secret: Layer a low sine wave that tracks the main Subtractor sound. That way even when you close the filter down, there's still a low end in there. I certainly agree that a dedicated hardware box like a Waldorf, Nord Lead, etc. has a certain purity that's currently hard to find in soft synths. BUT to me, almost every sound has value. It all depends on the context in which it is used. For some things, Subtractor sounds IDEAL because of its roughness. For others, it doesn't. But the other thing about Reason that people don't mention is how tweakable it is. To me, what makes a synth line *move* people is the nuances you add with controllers. There's nothing like a Peavey PC-1600 controller crucial parameters. You can make that thing really emote, to the point where you simply don't give a damn any more how many multisamples there are, because you're creating a line that's truly expressive. Everything's a compromise, but I think Reason makes the right ones. BTW I was using "L1" in the more generic sense, yes the L2 is better. But what I'm saying is that volume makes a huge difference in terms of perceived quality of a sound (it's like the old trick of hi-fi stores where they want to sell you a particular speaker, so when they "A-B," the speaker they're pushing plays back 1 dB louder). So if you bump up the Reason out with a little compression or limiting, or just monitor at a slightly higher level, you'll hit the right part of the Fletcher-Munson curve and pick up a bit more bass.

[Master Zap]

Which handle does the overweight slim man go under? /Z

[DJDM]

[quote]Originally posted by Master Zap: [b]Which handle does the overweight slim man go under? /Z[/b][/quote]"Fatboy Slim"... ;) Actually if he is haning out there he is keeping it a total secret. - DJDM

[gmstudio99]

[quote]Originally posted by Brian T: [b]I would pretty much never fire Reason up as a pure synth module and expect it to exceed the best of the better, more specifically dedicated units, on a sound by sound basis.[/b][/quote]...and how many of these "best of the better" units cost US$275 or so? Paul

[Monkey Mouse]

[quote]Originally posted by gmstudio99: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Brian T: [b]I would pretty much never fire Reason up as a pure synth module and expect it to exceed the best of the better, more specifically dedicated units, on a sound by sound basis.[/b][/quote]...and how many of these "best of the better" units cost US$275 or so? Paul[/b][/quote]The best you can do for that is $200 for the Yamaha AN200/DX200, worth every penny. But nowhere are they as versatile as Reason.

[vudoo]

comparing soft synth and hardware is not really fair...since if you think of it...a hardware box is basically a CPU with dedicated software written for it AND multiple input and output and midi...so when comparing with soft synth ( costwise ) you must include partly the cost of the computer AND a decent hardware...once taken all that into account...softsynth ain't THAT cheap.

[progfusion74]

I would disagree .. cause if you have one soft synth or 10, the computer remains constant. I have a ROMpler, a sampler, a VA, and a drawbar organ. Just the thought of all of these as hardware is scary. My whole studio, including computer + 1 hardware syngh is about $2500. The equivalent in hardware would be much more expensive (and I get free/cheap upgrades) prog

[vudoo]

Even though, theoretically, you can run many soft synth on the same computer...I NEVER run more than two soft synth on the same computer. When scoring for film, i use 3 different PC, each running Gigastudio and a 4th PC is for FM7 and Abysynth ( also for fooling around with Reason ). My Mac is running ProTools HD and everyt computers are resolve to the same word clock...i can't really say that it's that much cheaper than when i had my many samplers but this is the only way i can have the performance, sound and reliability that i need.

[Anderton]

About that L1 comment...remember, you're running a lot of instruments inside Reason, some with fairly decent transients and resonant filters that can hit pretty big peaks. Combining all these signals together means you will be butting up against dynamic range limits. Doing the plug-ins equivalent of some mastering is well worth trying. My thinking is that a collection of Reason instruments is like a tune, not individual tracks, and therefore lends itself to mastering-type techniques.

[progfusion74]

[quote]Originally posted by vudoo: [b]Even though, theoretically, you can run many soft synth on the same computer...I NEVER run more than two soft synth on the same computer. When scoring for film, i use 3 different PC, each running Gigastudio and a 4th PC is for FM7 and Abysynth ( also for fooling around with Reason ). My Mac is running ProTools HD and everyt computers are resolve to the same word clock...i can't really say that it's that much cheaper than when i had my many samplers but this is the only way i can have the performance, sound and reliability that i need.[/b][/quote]That setup is certainly not cheap. I know Gigastudio is a hog (never used it myself), but I was able to run several softsynths successfully on a Pentium II, so I suspect you could do better there. In your setup the only price advantage software gives you is upgrades. In my case, I can't dream of a hardware setup the won't be at least a few 1000 dollars more than my essentially software setup. prog