Do drummers wank on the bass drum?

[dohhhhh6]

Hey, I'm a bassist peeking over

 

I've been noticing lately that most drummers seem to play the kick, in my opinion, more than they need or should.

 

Im my opinion, unless you're playing metal or fast punk, I don't see a reason for a double bass pedal unless you're keeping time on the bass drum at a fast tempo.

 

I know you guys have been screwed over even worse than bassists. ACDC's had their enslaved drummer playing the same rock beat since God knows when! However, I don't see a need to overcompensate with a million kick hits.

 

I've personally been having problems with a drummer who adds random kicks into his beats that serve absolutely no purpose. Not a big deal, but it's annoying.

 

What's your guys take on the kick?

[sidereal]

Do you play any extra notes?

 

I don't mean that to be argumentative, but you're asking an entirely subjective question. What is too many notes? What are random notes? Are they unintended or purposeful?

 

If you don't like the notes he plays on the kick, you probably just don't like his style. Double kick can be very creative, but of course he may be abusing it, which is a common thing with double kicks.

 

He may also be communicating with you. Maybe he wants you to hit those notes with him. If you want to be tactful, just ask: Hey man, do you want me to join you on those sycopated notes? or whatever.

 

Having said all that, one of my all time favorite drum performances is "Unsung" by Helmet. The magical moment of that performance is when he plays the kick on the 1, the downbeat, where the guitar riffing leaves this enormous space. The drummer could have filled that in with some cool kick thing, but he just hit the 1. And that's the brilliance of the groove.

[DC]

I like kick grace notes just fine, but if a drummer is using two kick pedals, I'll probably run away. I'm sure there's a cool application but just not from anyone I've personally met. Playing 'wipe out' with your feet just doesn't suit what I want out of a drummer.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

Im my opinion, unless you're playing metal or fast punk, I don't see a reason for a double bass pedal unless you're keeping time on the bass drum at a fast tempo.

I'm also a bassist who peeks in here from time to time.

 

You haven't heard drummers like Chad Wackerman. When he does his jazz stuff, especially with Allan Holdsworth... oh man, he can punctuate some of Allan's crazy, sax-like phrasing with some triplet hits from the double bass! Of course, Chad also knows what to do with some of that stuff while soloing.

 

If you want to hear Chad doing some of his best playing with Allan, score (or at least borrow) a copy of "All Night Wrong." The trio (guitar, bass, and drums) setup really allows Chad to put his two cents in nicely.

[offramp]

As a drummer, I've never understood the need for a double kick pedal, outside of doing a really cool thundering shuffle like "Hot For Teacher".

 

Any kick accents I need, I can get out of one foot.

 

Could you, also, define for us what you mean by "most drummers"? Are you speaking of those you play or audition with, or those you're hearing a lot on records and radio? Could it be a genre thing, or is it an inordinate number of country drummers whipping out an extra pedal?

[ihategarybettman]

Lady, I've never had a double pedal and Phil Rudd is one of my favorite drummers, but if I see one of those drum wankers, I'll pass on your concerns.

[dohhhhh6]

It's definitely refreshing getting some drummer's views on the subject.

 

When I say most drummers, I mean most drummers. I hear a ton of what I consider (though to a lesser degree now) to be bass drum wanking in metal (specifically) and all of the hardcore acts that currently have a ton of music scene popularity in my city of St Louis.

 

Maybe I'll have to listen a bit harder at the bass drum hits at practice, I might find it's simply accenting something I didn't see before.

[Angelo Clematide]

it's way more difficult to rest and pause, then to fill every pulse with a hit!

 

And of course there are hi-tech drummers who

play on records i never play when i meet a lady, except i wanna that she leaves fast.

[Lee Flier]

Hmm I wasn't aware that musicians were generally supposed to be "tasteful and restrained" when playing metal.

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

...have to listen a bit harder at the bass drum hits at practice, I might find it's simply accenting something I didn't see before.

mount a tally counter at the bass drum and pay the drummer by the kicks he does not play

[offramp]

HAH! Great idea!

 

Truly a case of "less is more"!

[Soundcrafter]

Insane kick usage: Virgil Donati!

[Tim Mayock]

I try to compare recorded music of the same type to what a drummer is doing. All musicians tend to wank more live than what ends up being a recorded part.

I love drummers that can focus more energy on tone and groove than on ghost notes. My personal opinion is that the wanking foot usually does more harm than good in regard to the groove.

 

P.S. I am a bassist and i think we all just want the groove to be solid and maybe have room for our occasional wanking!

[ihategarybettman]

Some drummers wank on the bass drum and some don't, just like some guitarists wank on the guitar and some don't, some bassists wank on the bass and some don't, some keyboardists wank on the keys and some don't, and ALL vocalists wank on the mike (just kidding, sort of).

 

Also, it's often a matter of perspective; what one person sees as wanking, another might find an interesting display of self-expression. I'm a less is more kind of drummer and I've never heard a Dave Matthews tune on which I didn't feel that Carter Beauford overplayed, but I have lots of friends who are DM Band fans who would disagree with my assessment.

[Dave Scoven]

I think the original question had to do with drummers who don't have a sense of "locking in" with a bass player. If the bass lines are busy and the music calls for that, great. But I know what she means.

 

Drummers, let's not get defensive!! :-) We all know this - what's called for, in ANY music, is for the drummer to lock with the bass player. The two must work together. If the bass player plays simple lines, quarter note patterns, then the drummer should play a bass drum part that comps that. Tasteful, appropriate playing is what makes a great drummer in any genre. Do some drummers wank off? Yes, and that makes them bad MUSICIANS. Do other players (guitar, etc. wank off? You bet. And that makes THEM bad musicians.

[sidereal]

All rhythm-based musical performances involve proper management of time. There's a concept in visual aesthetics known as positive/negative volume. Negative volume is space that is eventually filled with positive volumes. Positive volumes are the objects that are then placed within that negative volume.

 

Now just relate it to time (the bpm and the note value). A measure is negative volume. The notes you play (kick, snare, hat, whatever) within that are positive volumes.

 

Now, it's up to a BAND to determine what to place in that negative volume. Sometimes filling it up with positive volumes help create an interesting structure. Sometimes leaving more negative volume helps the structure. Sometimes one type of positive volume is called for more often (more bass notes, fewer drum notes). Sometimes it's better for both to leave more negative volume.

 

In other words: context. Some of the most spacious types of music is jungle music where you've got 155 bpm beats going on filled with all kinds of percussion and rhythmic sound effects, but the bass is playing half notes. Strangely enough, it sounds compelling, energetic, and relaxing all at the same time. They're just managing notes within time really well.

 

I don't see how there can even be discussion about whether wanking on a kick drum is a good thing or a bad thing. sucking is always bad. wanking is relative.

[Dave Scoven]

IS wanking relative? I'm not so sure. I think the original poster essentially defined 'wanking' as the failure to groove or hit the deep pocket with a bass player caused by overplaying the kick (or overplaying in general). IF we can all accept that definition, then I think we can objectively indentify wanking and agree that no one but the drummer doing the wanking wants to hear it!! :-)

 

This thread really touches the musician in me. Can you guys tell?

[I I mjrn]

"Do drummers ....?"

Is that whay there's so often a towel stuffed in there?

[sidereal]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

I've been noticing lately that most drummers seem to play the kick, in my opinion, more than they need or should.

 

Im my opinion, unless you're playing metal or fast punk, I don't see a reason for a double bass pedal unless you're keeping time on the bass drum at a fast tempo.

...

 

I've personally been having problems with a drummer who adds random kicks into his beats that serve absolutely no purpose. Not a big deal, but it's annoying.

 

What's your guys take on the kick?

This is the original post. Seems clear to me that the discussion is about quantity of notes in a drum performance, which, as I've suggested, is relative and contextual. Depends on the music, depends on the style, the personality, etc. etc. Jazz drummers, for example, are constantly wanking on every piece of the kit. Don't even get me started on guitar players.

 

The problem with any efforts to objectively define what and how many notes should be played is that it works against the spirit of creativity, and offends *my* sensibilities as a musician and a drummer. Personally, I don't want anyone telling me if I walk into a session that you may only play 3 kick drum notes maximum per measure. Maybe the song determines that it's better to have 5 notes. Or 8. Or 11.

 

Personally, I tend to be pretty reserved and open in my playing because the music I play needs to breathe. I don't even own a double kick pedal cause it's not my thing. But I have a problem with the idea that anyone can objectively assume is that the drummer is playing too many notes.

 

Overplaying is always bad. But what I'm suggeting is that the band as a whole communicate and determine what's the best collective groove and performance for the song. Maybe the problem is in the bass playing. Perhaps Da LadY is underplaying and her drummer is over in the Bass forum complaining about her lack of ability to grasp the nuances in his style.

[Dave Scoven]

Hmmmm. I guess I'm just seeing this from a producer's perspective. I believe the drummer's job, first and foremost, is timekeeper. It's to the drummer to lay down the serious groove and make the tune feel right. In the studio, in professional situations, people tell you what to play all the time. I've been told as a musician. I've told other people, as a producer.

 

Sidereal, think about it from a recording standpoint for a moment -- Have you ever sat down to mix a song and wondered if the drummer and bass player had ever met before, much less rehearsed the songs? I have, and it's a nightmare.

 

You're right that the band should make decisions about how the sonic space is filled. I have been assuming that the original poster is playing bass lines appropriate to the songs, and the songwriter(s) like what she's doing. That's the charitable assumption to make, I believe. In that situation, the drummer's job is to play a groove that works with her part. Less is more with groove playing. It's been my experience with drummers and musicians generally that, instead of getting "inside" the music and really creating a deep feel with a simple groove, they want to play everything they know in every song. 99% of the musicians I've played with who were like that were useless, because they just muddy up the song with random notes. AND since they had never cared to play "inside," they weren't able to do it, which made them worthless in the studio.

 

I guess we can't know what the original poster is really talking about unless we hear her band!! :-)

[sidereal]

Originally posted by Dave Scoven:

Sidereal, think about it from a recording standpoint for a moment -- Have you ever sat down to mix a song and wondered if the drummer and bass player had ever met before, much less rehearsed the songs? I have, and it's a nightmare.

...

I guess we can't know what the original poster is really talking about unless we hear her band!! :-)

On that last bit: absolutely. That's essentially what I'm trying to say. We can't know, so it doesn't seem fair to presume that the drummer is at fault.

 

And yes, I've done quite a bit of recording and mixing. I'm taking it as a given that if the bassist and drummer are not on the same page, we've got a problem. But why assume that it's because the drummer is 'wanking'? In your experience, if the drummer and bassist are off, is it always the drummer?

 

I think it's a myth that less-is-more is always a good thing. If on the song "Indiscipline" Bill Bruford played a straight boom-chick-boom-boom-chick 5/4 pattern that followed the bass line note for note, that song doesn't work. If Tim Alexander doesn't use a double-kick on "Jerry Was a Race Car Driver" it doesn't work.

 

Another personal opinion: Drummers are not time keepers. Click tracks are time keepers. Drummers are rhythm makers and groove artists. We now live in an abundance of Pro Tools engineering wherein microanalysis has unfortunately placed a premium on meter over style. I find that really sad.

 

I guess this is a sensitive issue for me. Drummers are not machines, but too often (partially because of bad drummers and modern engineering approaches) recording engineers and other instrumentalists focus too tightly on the wrong thing.

 

Again, welcome to the forum. I guess we just disagree.

[Super 8]

There is something to be said about playing straight, and waiting at least 8 bars before you thow in any kind of fill or accent.

 

I can think right off of Fonzi Thornton's work on Bryan Ferry's albums. Playing very straight, but then once in a while, at the right time, thowing in a few doubles on the kick and a cymbal crash. It was VERY effective.

 

I have tried to incorporate some of that into my own playing. It's hard, because it requires a lot or restraint. I tend to play too damn many ghost notes. The more you play them, the less they matter.

 

I have also noticed -in the venue I often play-, you simply have to play fewer kick notes, because the sound bounces all around the room. You get some syncopated thing going on, and you think you have the coolest, funkiest thing going on, and then you hear what it sounded like, and it sounds like an avalanche.....NOT what I'd intended. So, in that situation, you cannot overplay. You godda keep it simple, but make it effective.

 

I don't think anybody ever got busted for playing too few notes.

 

 

Interesting topic.

I think we should make a similar thread in the Guitar forum.

[Dave Scoven]

I hear you, Sidereal.

 

I think you're right -- in a lot of music today there is a tendency to quantize the whole rhythm track. But there are genres of music, and not just jazz and fusion, where click tracks just aren't used at all. To be honest, I think a lot of producers quantize drum tracks knowing full well what that does to the feel of the tune. But so many drummers have horrible meter that there's very little choice. From a producer's standpoint, it's sometimes just a necessary thing.

 

In my experience, there are SO few musicians who can play busy lines AND hold down the basics (tempo and groove) that you tend to emphasize the basics first and foremost.

 

Peter Erskine is one of my favorite drummers -- he plays a LOT of fusion, which is about as technically busy a music as you're going to find. His educational DVD series is titled -- you're gonna love this -- "Timekeeping is Everything" (parts 1 & 2). Dave Weckl's series has a heavy, heavy emphasis on the timekeeping role of the drummer.

 

But let's look at it from a purely practical perspective. Lots of lone kick hits in a song just doesn't sound good. Let's assume the bass player *is* underplaying a bit. For the sake of the song, I'd keep my kick part just as simple. Then, if the producer or the songwriters said "Hey, can you guys beef up the bottom a little?" -- great. If I really thought the bass player was literally underplaying, I'd just encourage a more fleshed-out part. If that didn't work, and all the songs were like that, I'd be looking for a new band. But honestly -- I've started a band or two in my time, and I've never passed up getting someone who played too simply (in fact, I don't think I've ever met a professional musician I could say played TOO simply). However, I've fired a lot of musicians for being unable to play only what the music called for and leave the rest out.

 

Super 8 makes a great point -- about restraint. Guys who play country (not radio country crap, but the real thing) -- talk about ultra-talented people who are disciplined musicians. Two of the best drummers I ever heard live were playing with k.d. lang and Lyle Lovett. Both played simple, solid, in the pocket. Now the cool thing about those kinds of concerts is that they still do the tune toward the end of the night were everyone gets to solo. k.d. lang's drummer's solo kicked serious ass in a way that made your jaw drop. Lyle Lovett's drummer (Russ Kunkel) has played with everyone and has been around for years. He's definitely a short list "A" drummer. He's played on most of Lyle's records. A lot of Lyle's tunes, like "Church," for example, have really cool drum parts. A lot of songs off the "I Love Everybody" cd have cool, very different, yet tasteful drum parts. Russ is my idea of a guy who's really made it, both from the musical and career perspective. He's one of those guys who could work every day of his life for top money.

 

The thing I love about these kind of drummers is just what Super 8 was pointing out. They might throw one simple lick in a song, but that lick will be so perfectly placed and subtley executed it will amaze you, and make you want to learn how to do that. It is indeed an art.

 

This is just another perspective, and not everyone has to agree. I'm fine with that :-)

 

Dave Scoven

dscoven@verizon.net

[ihategarybettman]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Super 8:

I don't think anybody ever got busted for playing too few notes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the first post, Da Lady commented on Phil Rudd (one of my favorite drummers), so it does happen, but not very often.

 

This morning, I was listening to Springsteen's "The Wild, the Innocent, and the E-Street Shuffle" and, once again, I was struck by how that album is frequently a textbook example of how NOT to play drums in a rock band. The time is all over the place, there are inappropriate and sloppy fills throughout the album, and talk about your bass drum wanking! Vini Lopez does OK on the faster songs, and you have to like the desperate energy he brings to the record, but his bass drum playing is an overly-busy disaster on the slower numbers/parts. No wonder Bruce placed an ad in the Village Voice looking for a drummer that said that he didn't want "any junior Ginger Bakers."

[Lee Flier]

Part of the problem is that both musicians (not only drummers but anybody) and audiences seem to have lost a lot of capacity for understanding subtlety. Everything has either got to be "showing off all your chops" or being mind numbingly simple. And of course there are some songs where one of those extremes tends to fit, but in general what I like is musicians who like subtle complexity - who can take what sounds like a "simple" part and vary it ever so slightly - in timbre, dynamics, tempo, etc... so that it sounds like a simple groove but there are all these little things going on that make the groove jump with life.

 

Of course nowadays so many of these things are lost, if in fact the musician ever had them to begin with, because engineers replace drums with samples, quantize stuff, compress the crap out of it, re-amp guitars, etc. It's just gross. And as a result audiences have become desensitized to the more subtle things in life.

 

Luckily I am my band's engineer and I don't edit one note of our drummer's wonderful drumming, which is simple exactly when it needs to be and busy exactly when it needs to be, depending on the song. But even his simple grooves are never quite what they appear to be, there is always that magic push and pull, the little variations on the hat or snare that play off my rhythm guitar accents, all that stuff that is way more important than lots of big fills, although nobody might consciously notice.

[The Bear Jew]

Hmm I wasn't aware that musicians were generally supposed to be "tasteful and restrained" when playing metal.

Watch it, missy.

 

As a guy who plays guitar in a metal/hardcore band, I can tell you that a lot of drummers in the genre do seem to think that:

More kick drum notes=more gooder.

 

Seems like a lotta guys wanna be a cross between Danny Cary and Vinnie Paul... except they don't have Vinnie's groove or Cary's technical skills.... so they wind up simply being super busy with no real benefit to the music. But that's the case in a lot of bands in many genres.

 

We happen to be very lucky... our drummer can play very fast, fluttery, blast -beat-like doubles on his kick drum... without a double-pedal. It's impressive... but he rarely does it because it really doesn't fit into our sound. His kick surely has enough ghost notes to haunt our rehearsal space forever, but he mainly does that kind of stuff for flavor rather than to show off.

[Lee Flier]

Erik, my comment wasn't meant to be disparaging at all. I was totally serious that metal isn't exactly known for being the bastion of taste and restraint - which I think is a GOOD thing. Taste and restraint isn't called for in every style of music or in every song within a particular style, even. If you don't see guys going a bit hog wild in a metal band then what's the point of metal?

 

You're right though, that regardless of style if you're just sloppy-busy with no groove or not enough skill to actually execute what you try to do, then it still doesn't help anything.

[ihategarybettman]

Erik, you nailed the essence of this thread when you said your drummer can play very fast, fluttery, blast-beat-like doubles on his kick drum... but he rarely does it because it really doesn't fit into your sound.

[The Bear Jew]

Erik, my comment wasn't meant to be disparaging at all. I was totally serious that metal isn't exactly known for being the bastion of taste and restraint - which I think is a GOOD thing. Taste and restraint isn't called for in every style of music or in every song within a particular style, even. If you don't see guys going a bit hog wild in a metal band then what's the point of metal?

You're right though, that regardless of style if you're just sloppy-busy with no groove or not enough skill to actually execute what you try to do, then it still doesn't help anything.

Oh I know, Lee... I was messing with you. I forgot my "sarcasm" smiley... Hmmm... we need one of those... along with an "irony" smiley..

 

Eh, I'd probably never use them, anyway.

 

Point is, yeah... I agree.

 

What would Pantera have been without wild, ridiculously fast double-bass tunes like "Fucking Hostile?" That's some crazy double-bass wanking, but it works for the tune. That craziness is part of the band's appeal.

 

Erik, you nailed the essence of this thread when you said your drummer can play very fast, fluttery, blast-beat-like doubles on his kick drum... but he rarely does it because it really doesn't fit into your sound.

And that's the point, rightmaking it work for the tune? To use Pantera as an example again, "Fucking Hostile" wouldn't sound quite as relentless and crazy if Vinnie Paul wasn't zipping along with Darrell's rhythm guitar line. But he laid off the double bass on the chilled parts of "This Love" because it just doesn't work there...

 

So... maybe the bigger point is... sometimes less is more, and sometimes more is less.... but, ultimately, what really matters is how well the drumming fits into the music as a whole.

[ihategarybettman]

No kidding. A Van Halen thread on another section of this site mentioned "Hot for Teacher." Would it be the same without the double-bass workout at the beginning - no! Does Alex Van Halen do this type of drumming in every song - once again, no, but it works on THIS song.