Help for beginner drummer friend 'o mine!

[shniggens]

My friend is a beginner drummer, and insists that playing along with popular CD's is the only practice he needs! I've tried to convince him that at least SOME time with a book would do him a kindness, as he would be able to visualize, then INTERNALIZE rhythms.

 

Now, I'm not a drummer, and I'm sure he probably considers me a theory snob. But I'm sure that I'm right when I tell him that practice with CD's should not be his only practice requirement.

 

To me, he is trying to take the easy way out. I mean, when I ask him to play 12/8 or 3/4 and he has no idea what I'm talking about, it's time to move on, right?

 

Help me compile a list that I can print up and give him the big "I TOLD YOU SO!".

 

Thanks.

 

 

Thanks.

[Rod Gervais]

Originally posted by shniggens:

To me, he is trying to take the easy way out. I mean, when I ask him to play 12/8 or 3/4 and he has no idea what I'm talking about, it's time to move on, right?

Shniggens,

 

Your friend is selling himself short.

 

Practicing with cd's is great - but it won't teach him what he needs as a drummer.

 

He won't be able to figure out from a cd how the drummer is doing that smooth press roll (for just one example of hundreds) - you can't get it from just hearing it.

 

Then again - you can't really get it from just a book either........

 

I always reccomend some lessons....... let someone see what you're doing - they can then point out something you're doing wrong before it becomes a hard habit.

 

But if a person won't take lessons - then at least buy books and video's, they also help a lot - but playing along with cd's all by ones-self to learn to drums isn't going to make a monster drummer out of him for sure.

 

Rod

[ihategarybettman]

schniggens, I took up the drums later in life than most (I was 21). I took some lessons and played along with records and other with other people. Due to my late start, I had a full-time job and was going to school, so I didn't have a lot of practice time. Because of this, my feel and time are pretty good, but my rudiments aren't. I regret to say that I can't play a paradiddle to save my life. I can play pretty good single-stroke rolls, flams, and ruffs, but my press roll could use some work. Also, I'm not much of a soloer, but my favorite drummers are less-is-more types like Al Jackson, Jr., Charlie Watts, Phil Rudd, and Stan Lynch, so that's not much of a loss for me.

 

What I'm getting at is, to be a well-rounded player who can adapt to a variety of styles, situations, and tempos, you can't place limits on yourself or your practice routine. You need to get at least some of the basics down, which usually requires some kind of lessons, but playing with other musicians, either in person or on recordings, is important too because it teaches you timing, dynamics, feel, and the necessity of listening to the people you're with (a valuable trait in all walks of life). Another important tool is really listening to as wide a range of music as possible (not just the "popular CDs") to both pick up new licks and to internalize a variety of different feels.

 

Basically, I would tell your friend that I enjoy playing my drums and I do certain things well, but I am very aware of my limitations, and I don't understand why someone would intentionally limit his or her musical horizons.

[crujones]

I'm basically a self-taught player. I got my first drum set at age 6 and I basically learned by playing to albums. I didn't have my first formal lesson until I got to high school. Being in the music program at school, I received 4 years of lessons and I don't regret any of it.

 

My opinion for any new drummer is yes, by all means, listening to CDs is an excellent way to learn. You learn timekeeping skills, song structure and hearing what works or doesn't for a specific song. If your goal is to play in a band, this is the best preparation for it. But I would also recommend taking lessons to learn some basic reading, theory and the rudiments.

[Super 8]

He should be able to get a lot of milage out of a copy of the book 'Stick Control', and a good video.

 

Stick Control is sort of a drummer's 'desert island' book. It's old. It's boring. But if you approach each sticking slowly and work on it for a while, it will defintely reward you. Plus you can do things like Substitute your foot for your right hand on something like RLRR LRLL....that kind of stuff. You'll get a lot bang out of that little book.

 

Which video? Hmmmmm... Well, I don't have a lot of videos, but remember feeling like I got a lot out of the Dave Weckl 'Back to Basics' video. Dave covers a lot of info, from drum tuning, to seat postion, and some basic rudiments. I enjoyed it a lot.

 

Private instruction? Well, it never hurt. Even if it were just a monthly check up to make sure he's playing things correctly in the book, or on the video.

I had some instruction from time to time. But they always wanted to push reading on me, and I was just more interested in playing. Nothing against reading, and I have learned to read a bit, but honestly it has never been something required of me as a drummer. But YMMV...

[Jode]

Simple. Tell him he can either spend the first five or so years of his drumming career beating his head against a wall and trying to figure things out on his own, or he can take lessons - even if only a few - from someone who's been doing it longer, who can tell him, "To play this, it's easier to do it this way than that way." Just tell him to ask himself how long he wants to take to become a good drummer. If he wants to be prideful and play like crap for years and years until the lightbulb finally comes on over his head, more power to him - he's got the rest of his life to figure it out. If he wants to start kicking ass immediately, there's a better way.

 

Oh, and also: if he wants to play with good musicians, most of them "talk theory." If he wants to forever play with pigheaded anti-musicians like himself, guaranteeing a lifetime of crappy bands, he should keep it up. A drummer who doesn't know what 12/8 means? I wouldn't hire him to clean out my gutters.

[Bill G.]

Hmm. I know 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/8, 9/8, and 11/8 time. But, I guess I never played in 12/8. Unless you're just talking about doubling the measure of a 6/4 beat. Any particular song that you could give as an example?

 

- Bill

[Jode]

12/8 is counted in four, but with a triplet subdivision: ONE-and-a TWO-and-a THREE-and-a FOUR-and-a. Most any blues shuffle is in 12/8.

[Bill G.]

Okay, I think I see. In other words, dotted eighth notes in a standard blues shuffle?

 

- Bill

[Jode]

Yes, 12/8 is often notated with a dotted eighth/sixteenth - lazy, buit very common.

[shniggens]

Thanks so far, guys!

 

On a happy note, I believe the somewhat harsh lecture I gave him (I hate doing that, I feel like such an asshole) has had some impact on him. He has been trying much harder, and started practicing more.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Bill G.:

Okay, I think I see. In other words, dotted eighth notes in a standard blues shuffle?

Yes. In other words, a STANDARD BLUES SHUFFLE. And that is exactly what the band leader will call it too.

I can count the times on one finger that anyone has ever said; "this is in 12/8", to me. They say, it's a blues shuffle, they play a bar or two, then we jam out the song. Done.

 

If Jode wouldn't hire a drummer who doesn't know what 12/8 is, that's fine, but he'll be missing out on a lot of really good drummers.

Drummers, perhaps more than any other musician learn by listening, rather than by reading or learning theory.

 

I'm not against reading or theory. I think they are valuable assets to have. But I don't believe that anything beyond a basic overview of rhythm is generally necessary for a drummer.

 

Most of what I've learned, I've probably forgotten, simply because nobody ever requires it of me.....and I can clean out gutters with the best of em.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by Super 8:

But I don't believe that anything beyond a basic overview of rhythm is generally necessary for a drummer.

 

D

It doesn't get any more basic than a 12/8 rhythm. And not all 12/8 is a blues shuffle. What about doo wop?

 

I think a drummer should have a grasp on ALL time signatures.

 

What if someone wants to play a piece in odd time? 5/8, 7/8, etc. Wouldn't it be good for the drummer to know what the hell this means?

[Bill G.]

Yes. But 5/8 and 7/8 are a little more unique times. Not uncommon, but unique. 12/8 is really a multiple 6/4 time. And in my experience, more commonly expressed that way. As an example, 7/8 could also be expressed as a measure of 4/4,with an alternating measure of 3/4. And I've seen it written that way on some sheet music. But, it's just much simpler (and I think more common) to just call it 7/8.

 

- Bill

[drumrob]

I think most of you guys are just proving the point about knowing time signatures! Jode has it right that 12/8 is typically counted in 4, but with a triplet feel. But I disagree that most blues "shuffles" are in 12/8. What I think of as shuffles are in 4/4. The "doo wop" reference is more accurate. Think of "The Great Pretender" by the Platters, or "I Can't Help Falling in Love" by Elvis . Those are in 12/8. Slower blues numbers like "Stormy Monday" are also in 12/8.

 

I agree that a drummer doesn't absolutely HAVE TO know everything about music theory. There are a lot of great drummers that probably don't know much theory at all. But I think it makes him/her a helluva lot better MUSICIAN if he/she does. A drummer can be a little more versatile and able to communicate with others in a common language.

 

This is not meant to put anybody down who doesn't know theory or who can't read music. What matters most is if you can hear, listen (that's different from just hearing) and play!

 

Rob

[Bill G.]

Hmm. I think it's all just a matter of symantics. Because to me, Elvis's "I can't help Falling in Love" is 6/4. Hi Hats: 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6... With the lyrics "I", "can't" and then "help", being on sequential "1's". I'm not saying this can't be counted as 12/8. I'm just saying it seems that if you counted this beat as 12/8, then you're sure putting a lot of extra, repeating beats into a single measure. At least as far as this song is concerned.