Just a band-leader venting about tempo issues

[Arlee]

I'm a band leader (16 years pro), not the drummer (I do play drums, but not for the band...I sing and play bass for the live gigs).

 

Give me some hope, here, people!

 

Lately I've been using several session drummers in my live covers gigs (having lost one "broken-in" drummer to a relocation and another long-time drummer to a late-in-life coke binge...he's still alive...just worthless at this point until he gets help) I'm frustrated!

 

These would be seen as fairly good players...but why, oh why, oh WHY aren't more drummers concerned with tempo. I'm very anal about tempo. I've played in lots of studio/click track situations over the years and I have developed the ability to keep tempos consistent...because I CARE about tempos.

 

I've tried everything from starting the songs (on the bass) and letting the band fall in after 1 or 2 cycles...to me counting it off out loud...to having the drummer get the tempos from a click and counting off the band ...but each time the tempo changes slightly at the first bar of the drums coming in (yes, it's THAT quick). Frustrating.

 

Another frustration: Speeding through fills.

 

I mean, WHAT is the deal with THAT?! Just calm down, relax and think of the fill as another way of playing the beat. Why, if you play the same fill on the hats as a part of the groove, the tempo stays fairly consistent...but it speeds up when the fill is done on toms?!

 

I HAVE had success with having them PLAY to a click but it seems a lot of drummers feel they've been emasculated when you ask them to do this...and then what you gain in tempo consistency is lost in their "this isn't fun anymore" attitude.

 

I know it sounds like I'm a rude, demanding band-leader...I'm actually very diplomatic, having won awards both locally and nationally for my pleasant nature and diplomacy (kidding about the awards). We all get along great.

 

I just need to vent here.

 

Let me know I'm not alone.

[DrummerCafe]

It's everyone's responsibility to be aware of the tempo, and to have good time.

 

With that said, the drummer's job is to make the music feel good. I understand your frustration about the speeding up of tempos during fills, as well as general time keeping issues.

 

I would encourage you to record your performances and/or rehearsals, and make the tapes available to your drummer(s). Let them hear what you hear. Telling them will only go so far, but if they can HEAR it for themselves, then you'll be on the road to recovery. Now, if they don't hear the problem, assuming that you are in fact hearing a problem and that problem isn't YOU ... then you're beating a dead horse. The reason I bring up YOU is only because you said these drummers were studio players. A studio drummer should not have the problems you are describing. If they did, how in the world would they make a living as a studio player?

 

So talk to them and ask they what they hear when the listen to the tape. Once you get a response, you can take the next step.

 

This topic as been discussed on this forum in the past. Try doing a search to find some other good suggestions. I replied in the past as well ... with a lot more detail in how I would and have gone about dealing with this type of problem.

 

As I mentioned, make sure that your time is good as well. Often times a leader will THINK their is a tempo problem with the drummer ... but the reality is that the leader's tempo is the one that is changing, and they don't know it or realize it. I'm not suggesting that this is the case with you, but I do think it's prudent to rule yourself out before pointing the finger at the drummer. No one likes to get egg on their face, so take the necessary precautions before you confront the matter with others.

[Jazzman]

I concur with Bart. Session players generally are on tempo. However, some folks claim to be session players when they are not, just to get a gig. It sounds like these drummers can't maintain the tempo after a simple drum roll to get back into the groove. A lot of practice is the key to understanding the song for everyone. How does everyone else feel about the drummer?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Jazzman

[Dennyf]

OK, you're not alone.

 

This was an issue in our band a while back. New (to our band) drummer was a clock as far as staying on tempo, but his tempos were all about 5-10 bpm too fast.

 

I was constantly asking him to slow down, he was saying it was just "energy," and my arguement was that it screwed up the groove, especially on the shuffly and swingy stuff. We were executing OK, but the music didn't "breathe."

 

Things actually got tense over it for a while. The bass player felt we were just having "artistic/creative" differences. So I made a little demo that had off-the-soundboard recordings of tunes that he counted off spliced into the original song, and did the same with songs I started. That pretty much made my point for me.

 

But if a person is not super-sensitive to tempo, just gripin' about it isn't gonna suddenly awaken a latent sensitivity within. So I changed my point of view. I adapt my own playing to fit the tempo we end up counting off, and try to see it as a challenge to my ability/adaptability as a musician.

 

It's a satisfactory modus operandi for me.

[coyote]

Tempo IS important. Very much so.

 

However, it is not something to be anal about. Many GREAT live performances, in all idioms, have examples of bands 'pushing' time just a little. It is indeed a natural phenomenon. I'm hyper-aware of it and can always detect it, yet I only comment on it when it's either excessive or wrecks a groove.

 

BTW, good musicians are able to take a criticism and use it to better their playing. Just last week I told my drummer that he was pushing time, and he said "Yeah I know" and the rest of the practice went well. It's the insecure guys who'll take a simple statement like that and try to turn it around on you and accuse YOU of wrecking the feel or something.

 

So I suggest this. Have the band practice at low volume to a click-track. Record the band while this is happening. Play it back to them. Do it for a couple rehearsals in a row on a given song, and then play without the click and see what happens. This exercise usually produces such good results that it convinces all but the most blockheaded....

[freelance]

As a drummer of almost 40 years who freelances with many bands I have a few thoughts.

 

First I agree that obviously everyone in the band is responsible for tempo - and on any given night different people feel tempo in different ways (if you're tired, if your pumped, if you're drinking, if you're snorting, etc. etc).

 

I also agree that the drummer needs to make the groove feel good and sometimes that may meean finding a spot betewwn a bass player who's dragging and a guitar player who is rushing (or pick whatever combination you choose). Often someone in the band doesn't like the tempo (based on how they feel that night) - and assumes it is the drummers fault (it may not be the drummer's fault).

 

Naturally, if the song starts at one tempo and ends several bpm's faster, then certainly the drummer let something get away from him/her.

 

It is an unfortunate fact that many drummers do tend to rush going into and coming out of fills - given enough fills in a song and it is possible that the song ends up way faster than it started.

 

As a leader, you can certainly mention that the groove is speeding up and the drummer should then be trying to focus on keeping the tempo steady. If the drummer can't keep focused, than you as the leader need to find someone else.

 

There have been many times I kept songs at a tempo that I did not think was right for the song (or even tempos that clearly other people on stage had a problem with) - but if I know the leader wants a tempo at x, that is what I'm paid to do.

 

I've even had people comment during a break x some was too slow/fast, etc - I simply explain I was following the tempo set by the leader.

 

The suggestion to record some shows to identify the drumming speeding up is a good one (the old picture is worth a thousand words concept). Naturally, if you often use different drummers it has less value.

 

However, as a leader who clearly has a strict sense of tempo, please keep in mind that on any given night the tempo has to reflect the personalities of the players (rather than have the players be chained to a strict tempo that they simply don't feel. (naturally, this does not justify a drummer speeding up every song from start to finish).

[offramp]

Originally posted by Arlee:

I'm very anal about tempo.

That's half the problem, right there.

 

I've played in lots of studio/click track situations over the years and I have developed the ability to keep tempos consistent...because I CARE about tempos.

Believe me, a drummer worth his/her salt cares about tempo, too. BUT...you gotta relax. Establish the tempo, but let it breathe. You sure as hell wouldn't be interested in someone telling you exactly how to play; doing that to a drummer by harping on him about fluxing by 2 or 4 bpm is insulting and divisive.

 

Keep it reigned in, but let it flow, let it breathe within that reign.

[vibes]

tempo with a live band and complaints from members other than in the rhythm section are an age old problem.

I suspect if you are truly using "session" players that perhaps the time of the band is not willing to "give in " to the new guy and visa versa..I've been in situations as a player where a horn section wanted to rush or drag and I would not allow it to happen due to my time instincts and training.

Usually situations with a rushing drummer if heor she is competent is related to leaders being uptight about things having to be just like the regular guy. Tough situation for all but my advise is to make the new guy or gal feel welcome and not make the situation an uptight one due to directing them with hand signals to go faster and or slower from where they might currently be. Once you start moving your hands and yelling across the stage at a good player is when you lose any chance of having it "your way"..If a member of the rhythm section is a regular it might be a good idea to let your new drummer have a talk through with the bass player in terms of not only the vibe on the stage but also the bass players idea of where things should be in terms of volume and time.

egos play in big here especially with the bass player/drummer hook up. First step is to get them talking to one another..then a meeting of the minds musically..just some thoughts from someone who only has it figured out after having at least 50 blood baths on tour and in the trenches with bands and studio orchestras. Last bit od advise to the leader complaining of bad time with drummers is to only hire drummers with "good time".

Just some thoughts..regards

vibes

[jjbraunius]

I believe that first and foremost the music should be about a natural as possible performance, so if the drummer changes it up a bit and it grooves - then you're on the right track.

I am not talking huge tempo changes but small variations help create a feel and they're not metronome/drum machine dull.

Then, sometimes you have drummers that really drift out of the beat by doing a fill, or they cut the timing by doing that - in that case there's no excuse.

[Edendude]

A drummer who can't hold and/or remember correct tempos, or keep time properly, is just as bad as a singer who can't sing on key.

 

I'm just glad that has not been an issue with the drummer in my band.

 

Tip of the week...

 

Next time you audition a drummer, have he or she play along to a click track at the audition. If a drummer balks at that suggestion, it's a very good indication that they cannot keep time.

[coyote]

Boy do I ever disagree with this. IMO one hallmark of a good player is the ability to take direction. A drummer who's rushing AND is either unaware of it or is too obstinate to accept the bandleader's signals to slow down ain't worth playing with, regardless of his 'chops'.

Originally posted by vibes:

Once you start moving your hands and yelling across the stage at a good player is when you lose any chance of having it "your way"..vibes

I play with good players and I'm ALWAYS ready to consider what they have to say about my playing, and to consider any suggestions. I expect, and receive, similar consideration in return.

[Bill G.]

Speading up, or rushing tempo during fills, isn't an uncommon problem for drummers. Many times, especially if the fill is complicated or tricky, a drummer will anticipate the fill, which results in an adrenaline rush, thus speeding through the fill. Even the great Steve Gadd has talked about this problem. Suggestions are, that you be "aware" of the problem, and work on staying relaxed, and concentrate on counting, or tapping a free foot. Also, spend personal time practicing with a metronome, switching between the basic beat, and the problem fill.

 

- Bill

[g.]

Players of all instruments may have a tendency to mess with the pulse, rushing or dragging. But drummers will get blamed for it, because their influence is much stronger in this regard because of the heightened percussive attack. And they are generally thought of a The Timekeeper.

 

So there's no sense in denying, whining, or getting obstinately angry. Just do all you can to address it, no matter where it is coming from. First step - be aware. That comes from a relaxed center.

[sidereal]

A few thoughts...

 

First, rushing fills is unacceptable. If the fill is too tricky in that it causes rushing, it means you can't properly execute the fill, so don't bother.

 

Second, I've played with a lot of band leaders and I've noticed that the better ones are very, very sensitive to tempo and meter. Often times they're more aware of it than drummers are. We shouldn't be so sensitive in our egos that we fail to listen to their criticisms. Afterall, if they're a bandleader, it's their gig. Having said that, there are times when the leader is simply wrong. If it's in doubt, tape it and then get together and listen/talk about tempo issues.

 

Two things are unacceptable to me: 1. The whole hands waving thing. That's disrespectful. Ask a bandleader to come up with some other indication if that's the case. 2. A bandleader counting off and then complaining about tempo.

 

I played with a blues singer who was sooo sensitive to tempo, she'd know if I was 2 bpm off. And it really mattered to her. If this is happening, you can try using a metronome, not all the time, but just as a way of reminding yourself every other gig of the correct tempo. Familiarity and reminders go a long way. Another option is to have the leader count the songs off. That way you're absolved of responsibility.

 

But then, meter is huge. Stop rushin' them damned fills.

[freelance]

I agree that bandleaders who start the count and then want to change tempo mid song can be difficult to work for. I also agree that someone waving thier arms to get the drummer to change the tempo (in a manner that is obvious to everyone in the house) is foolish and unprofessional.

 

I worked with one band leader that had about a dozen very subtle movements to dictate - faster, slower, change to cut time, louder, softer, etc. The first time I showed up at a gig he called me aside after I was set up and walked me through all these signals (an NFL playbook would be easier to understand) - but after playing a couple of gigs I found it to be an excellent system, that nobody would notice (I don't even know if the other people on stage noticed)- the people in the band were impressed that I "aced" all the dynamics - I was just watching the leader.

 

I worked with another guy that simply said "watch my foot' the man tapped his foot all night long (I actually had to adjust my kit to give me a clear vision of his "patent leather metronome"

[coyote]

It's entiely likely that the drummer who's rushing the tempo is doing so because he ain't paying attention. Most bandleaders will try subtle ways of indicating such things before they resort to obvious gestures - but someone who ain't paying attention to the music enough to keep a decent meter probably ain't paying enough attention to the bandleader either, and consequently will miss the subtle cues.

 

I remember seeing Buddy Rich and his big band at the BlueNote some time ago. The pianist was all over the map, and finaly Buddy had had enough and started shouting "PLAY THE F%#KING TIME!!!"

 

Anyone who demands the professional courtesy of subtle signals has to earn it by paying proper attention to the music and the bandleader.

[freelance]

coyote,

 

I agree with you 100%. Over the years I've seen way too many people who fail to pay attention to what's happening around them on stage.

 

While a good player needs big ears they should also keep their eyes open.

 

Your are right about "earning respect". I find most leaders don't make a public show of tempo corrections unless they are driven to it by a player who is not paying attention.

[Bill G.]

"I remember seeing Buddy Rich and his big band at the BlueNote some time ago. The pianist was all over the map, and finaly Buddy had had enough and started shouting "PLAY THE F%#KING TIME!!!""

 

I think many of us can relate to this. I was in a band that had a singer, who couldn't keep time to save his life. His answer always was "Don't listen to me." But many songs were que'd in the breaks, by his singing. And, when he would jump time, it always screwed everthing up.

 

- Bill

[techristian]

 

Another frustration: Speeding through fills.

 

That was my old problem before practicing with a metronome.

 

These don't sound anything like "studio" drummers ,to me. A studio drummer MUST play consistent timing for most music types, because there is always a possibility that the producer or engineer will want to cut out a piece.

 

There is no faster way to hear a speed change than to cut out a whole verse or whole chorus. The speed will change dramatically after the splice.

 

Dan

 

http://teachmedrums.com/octopus2.wmv

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Edendude:

Tip of the week...

 

Next time you audition a drummer, have he or she play along to a click track at the audition. If a drummer balks at that suggestion, it's a very good indication that they cannot keep time.

That's not my experience at all. It's simply an indication that they don't like to play to a click. And I would never expect a drummer I work with to do that, even if they CAN (and most I have worked with can if they have to, they just don't want to).

 

I agree with some of the others here that over the last 20+ years since we've had drum machines and now have the ability to line up drum hits precisely on a grid in the studio, a lot of people expect the tempo to be perfect throughout a song. That's seen as the hallmark of a good drummer, and a lot of drummers dutifully go along with that, priding themselves on being able to play great with a click and/or maintain perfect tempo throughout a song. That's a skill that is useful in some circumstances, but I do NOT agree that maintaining the exact same tempo throughout a song is necessarily a good thing. I have no problem at all with variations of a few BPM over the course of a song; like offramp says it makes the song pulse and "breathe" and is exciting and adds to the groove. Put up James Brown's records on a grid and you'll find they vary by as much as 5 bpm. Yet those guys have a tighter, funkier groove than anybody.

 

So I don't blame drummers for feeling straitjacketed by a click, I do, even though I can play to one. The question is whether they can groove and whether the rest of the band can lock in with them; that's what's relevant to me. I find it a little bizarre how much people insist on utterly consistent tempo these days.

[Bill G.]

An old saying in music is, "Art without discipline, is exhibitionism."

 

Tempo is every bit as important as playing the correct note, or singing in key. Is it acceptable for tempo to change throughout a song? I suppose so, if the tempo change is intended. But, if not, then you shouldn't use that as an excuse, and everyone should strive for good tempo.

 

- Bill

[coyote]

This is true.

Originally posted by Bill G.:

Is it acceptable for tempo to change throughout a song? I suppose so, if the tempo change is intended. But, if not, then you shouldn't use that as an excuse, and everyone should strive for good tempo.

- Bill

AND.... just as notes that are not originally intended often get played, tempo may change without specific premeditation.

 

It truly depends on the intent of the band. No band should have to deal with unintended drastic tempo change. But slight variation is not always a problem. Look at ELP back in the day. Palmer definitely had a tendency to rush his fills. However, there were few players around who could play what the music required as he did so they lived with this rushing tendency. He was proficient and musical, and he was exciting in live performance. A more metronomically solid player likely would not have served their music quite as well.

[dayvel]

Interesting that Buddy Rich and drummers who speed up on fills came up on the same thread.

When I was in high school, our jazz band played a lot of Buddy Rich charts and I learned them by playing along with the records. I always wondered why I consistently came out a little behind the beat after every fill. I finally figured out that Buddy sped up slightly every time the band cut out and settled back into tempo when they came back in. My point isn't that Buddy was wrong in doing this, but that this is actually a quite musical and exciting effect. Perfectly strict time isn't always the best approach.

[Bill G.]

One thing I think that is important to note here, is that when talking about two world-class drummers such as Buddy Rich, and Carl Palmer, that were talking about guys who's playing, sets all of the timing of the small groups they played with. Even when I saw Rich with a conductor, HE conducted the conductor! I mean let's face it, these two guys stand out in a crowed of drummers.

 

However, what about large drum or percussion ensambles such as The Blue Man Group? These guys have impeccable timing, and tempo. And they have to, in order to play with that many drummers, and percusionist. I think playing with large groups of other drummers, teaches rock-solid tempo, and timing. In fact, Steve Gadd, mentioned that one the most benificial things he did when he was younger, was to play with a Drum Corps.

[Jazz+]

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[DC]

First off, if I had Spyder in my former bands I'd 100% agree with Lee. Thing is, in my area I've had to deal with some real, em, special drummers. One of my requirements back in the day was someone who could travel and that cuts out a bunch unless the pay is worth re-locating.

 

This one guy I worked with over and over (because I could say; "Can you got to Mississippi next week and to Louisanna the week after?" could do it) was a pretty good drummer chops wise. Thing is, he consistantly played everything too fast.

 

His biggest problem was on guitar solos. I'd take a solo and by the end of it, I'm singing the third verse at double time. Man, that got on my nerves and although I repeatedly debated, instruted, scolded, it didn't help a whole lot on certain nights. (But hey, I learned out how to do some difficult guitar parts double time )

 

Okay, so I figure out midi and now I can program a light show, effects changes for the vocals, guitar and snare drum per song and add some keyboard fills here and there. I get this guy in by himself to train him on click. It was so funny on the first day. He swore up and down that the click was changing; that it was off. I told him it was a machine and it couldn't be off. See you cats arguing about a couple of bpm are cracking me up.

 

I stayed aware of feel and lots of times made the chorus 1 bpm faster for instance. Lee, don't dog me out here, I was working with what I had.

 

Thing is, he learned to play with the click and on jams after the fact, he was way more consistant. Still too rushy fast on average though.

[Tedly Nightshade]

This is one of the best threads ever on this drum forum.

 

I have found that recording what you played and then playing it back for everybody saves a lot on conversation and bruised egos. I'm trying to find a really handy way to do this in rehearsal in the post-boom-box era.

 

Always pay close attention to what Lee says, BTW.

[coyote]

One word (or acronym): VHS. Pull a feed straight off the board and/or use a couple cheap but good room mics. You can put it on record and forget it til the session is complete; you can even capture a very long session that way if you use the 4- or 6-hour setting.

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

I have found that recording what you played and then playing it back for everybody saves a lot on conversation and bruised egos. I'm trying to find a really handy way to do this in rehearsal in the post-boom-box era.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Thanks coyote. I'll look into that.

 

I want to be able to play back each rehearsal "take" right away through monitors, so everyone can adjust as we go. So, I'm looking at a mic or two, a recorder, and some powered monitor or something- more complicated than I'd like. It's got to be just as easy to do it as not...

 

Originally posted by coyote:

One word (or acronym): VHS. Pull a feed straight off the board and/or use a couple cheap but good room mics. You can put it on record and forget it til the session is complete; you can even capture a very long session that way if you use the 4- or 6-hour setting.

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

I have found that recording what you played and then playing it back for everybody saves a lot on conversation and bruised egos. I'm trying to find a really handy way to do this in rehearsal in the post-boom-box era.

[D_dup3]

This appears to be well hashed out but I'd like to add some thoughts on click tracks.

 

I think they're something everyone should be adaptable to playing with, even if their necessity is a bit overemphasized.

As mentioned already, there're lots of cases where a bit of "breathing" in tempo is a good thing. It can add to the feel of a piece of music sometimes but it must always be under control, not something that just happens as a matter of course.

On the other hand, the more music is edited from different takes, sources, etc., the more it needs to be consistent.

 

One problem a lot of people have, who may even be good at time generally, is they become too conscious of trying to match the click when they first encounter this approach; they try too hear the metronome/click & then hit with it, which, obviously, doesn't work right. They need to listen to it for a while, relax & get themselves in sync so they're feeling it, not worrying about each beat.

One thing that can help is to devise a pattern that outlines the time but doesn't "micro-manage" it---give them halfnotes rather than 1/4s or 1/8ths for instance. Or set up a rhythmic guide to help maintain the feel rather than a mere tempo click.

 

When it comes to maintaining this live, well, that's where their practice will either "click in" or not.