some general questions about drums & technique

[I I mjrn]

For those who don't know, I'm along-time musician with skills on several instruments including, to a degree, drums.

 

In preparation for a new band I plan with two drummers I'v ebeen watching some instructional videos & noticed a few things that've aroused my curiousity. Maybe some of you can help.

 

[1] In demonstrating rudiments all the videos I've seen show the drummers actually striking the head in two different places with the R & L hands. While this is understandable in a physical sense there seems to be a "problem" that even the players don't recognize (or at least address).

Consistently they hit the head's center with one stick & nearer the edge with the other. This results in a distinct timbral difference; the center giving a clear deep tone & nearer the edge giving a higher tone.

This is especially noticable when double-stroke rolls are played (or any alternating multi-stroke-with-one-hand effect). Even at fast speeds it's almost as if two drums were played.

Can it be that experienced pro players like Dave Weckl don't notice this? I would think not but he never addressed the very obvious sound difference.

Is it an intentional effect?

 

[2] Why play cymbals with the shoulder of the stick as opposed to the tip bead?

 

[3] What differences/benefits do you find between using a single drum head or both on any drum?

 

[4] In the band I plan one drummer will play the basic rhythms with 4 piece kit & a hi-hat & the other will do "color" with multi-toms & lots of cymbals. What comments does anyone have about the general tonal character of different cymbal manufacturers (for ex., ar Paistes tighter/drier than Zildjians?) or have modern production techniques reduced/eliminated such generalizations?

[DrummerCafe]

1. There is a difference, and it varies from drum to drum. I don't know what videos or players you are talking about, but just because it's on a video doesn't mean it's right/wrong/good/bad.

 

Any stroke can be played off of center to make a timbre difference. Big backbeats are often played on or near center, while ghost-strokes or taps may be played in the area that suits the desired sound.

 

Trust me, Dave Weckl and others know what sounds are coming from their drums.

 

2. Try it and you'll hear the difference. Using the tip of the stick does not afford much weight to the stroke, and the impact point is very small when using the tip of the stick.

 

Using the shoulder of the stick allows for a greater surface area to make contact with the cymbal. This allows for a bigger, fuller sound ... very quickly. The cymbal reacts quicker because more mass is being used to set it in vibration. The tip of the stick usually produces a thinner sound out of the crash. When playing the Bell of the Ride cymbal, it's customary to use the shoulder of the stick rather than the tip, all for the very same reasons.

 

Compare the sound of tapping a penny on a table. Use the edge of the coin, then the flat side. Hear the difference?

 

3. Single-headed Toms, often referred to as Concert Toms, have a unique sound, as do double-headed Toms. It's about the sound. Decades ago, it was more about what the engineer needed in order to control the sound of the drum for micking and recording purposes. Nowadays it's about the sound you desire. This is what determines which you use.

 

4.As you suggested, modern production techniques have reduced and/or eliminated such generalizations between brands. Now, if you are talking about a type of cymbal, comparing a particular Crash type between brands, that would be different. It's about finding the sound you want and desire; the sky is the limit.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

[1] In demonstrating rudiments all the videos I've seen show the drummers actually striking the head in two different places with the R & L hands. While this is understandable in a physical sense there seems to be a "problem" that even the players don't recognize (or at least address).

Consistently they hit the head's center with one stick & nearer the edge with the other. This results in a distinct timbral difference; the center giving a clear deep tone & nearer the edge giving a higher tone.

This is especially noticable when double-stroke rolls are played (or any alternating multi-stroke-with-one-hand effect). Even at fast speeds it's almost as if two drums were played.

Can it be that experienced pro players like Dave Weckl don't notice this? I would think not but he never addressed the very obvious sound difference.

Is it an intentional effect?

Wow. Yes I'm sure these guys know they're doing it and if they weren't happy with it they'd change it. Part of the BEAUTY of a drum is its complex range of timbres, but ever since the onset of drum machines and samples some people seem to judge whether drummers are good or bad based on "consistency" - you must hit the drum with the same timbre and at the same volume every time, and be perfectly on the beat and never vary the tempo. And if you don't do all of these things when recording the engineer will probably replace your parts with samples. This has got to be the most boring thing imaginable. There's nothing at all wrong with having different timbres throughout a roll, including a different timbre for each hand. It's called expressiveness... or at least it used to be. Imagine if you were a guitar player and people started taking you to task for picking with both upstrokes and downstrokes because they sounded different.

[coyote]

Most of us who play two bassdrums deliberately tune them different from each other so they create slightly different timbres. Differences in sound create character. It's the lack of that kind of character which many despise about machine-played music.

 

The best drummers are typically the ones who can find a hundred different timbres in a single drum.

[I I mjrn]

Thanks to those comments but I want to pursue question regarding double-stroke rolls.

 

I fully understand the timbral variety/charachter/expression idea but I noticed that nobody mentioned the fact that they were playing R & L hands in different ares of the head nor did they mention the possibilities of variation.

This leads me to think they were working from habit or convenience.

After all, concern for timbral variety would start, I think, with both sticks striking at points equally displaced from the head's center, yielding a more balanced sound. Then would come deliberate variations of placement.

 

At any rate, I still find it odd that the matter wasn't mentioned.

Does anyone know of materials where it is specifically discussed in the reference to the subject here (that is, not general discusions of timbre but the plscement of strokes on the head for balanced timbre & for differentiation of the hands) ?

 

If not this might be a matter for some to exploit in their own instrutional material.

[joeq]

my guess is that these drummers in the videos are _trying to exaggerate the differences, because they are demonstrating the effect.

 

Or because they like the way it sounds - or both.

 

If someone had truly identical sticks and hit in the exact same spot each time, you would only have the visual element to distinguish between singles, doubles and paradiddles.

 

not very educational, and also probably not very musical.

 

when brought up to speed, each rudiment has a 'texture' that is different from, say, playing the same 16th or 32nd note pattern as a single stroke roll. If you could totally negate that texture you might as well put all your practice time into one rudiment.

 

and of course one of my favorite things to do is to take a rudiment and split it across two different drums.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

After all, concern for timbral variety would start, I think, with both sticks striking at points equally displaced from the head's center, yielding a more balanced sound.

Why would you think that? Like Joe said, a big part of the reason for having the different rudiments is because they sound different - they're SUPPOSED to sound different.

 

It's really not very difficult in any case to play a roll wherever on the head you feel like playing it, so if a pro drummer is getting a different timbre with each hand you can bet that it's deliberate.

[I I mjrn]

I think that because the basic idea of any instrument's techniques (as you already know, Lee) is to be able to perform consistently & to control the variations.

 

Some people do complain about guitarists using alternating strokes when they think only downstrokes are allowed (hard rockers, etc.) even though the difference on amplified guitars is negligible, certainly less than in the matter discussed here.

 

I'm still not sure I buy the "different rudiments should sound different" idea as the reason for this. Paradiddles, for instance, are primarily a way to change the leading hand but Weckl points out that the accent on the 1st stroke should also change between R & L hands.

 

Is it taken for granted among trained drummers that double stroke rolls should have 2 distinct tones?

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

I'm still not sure I buy the "different rudiments should sound different" idea as the reason for this. Paradiddles, for instance, are primarily a way to change the leading hand but Weckl points out that the accent on the 1st stroke should also change between R & L hands.

The paradiddle is primarily a way to change the leading hand? Kinda makes me wonder why people would play them back to back then. I would say that paradiddles serve a purpose - they sound different than "lrlr", especially if you play them between two different sound sources. Even when played on a single surface, a snare drum for example, the feel is different and therefore the groove will be slightly different. Different enough that the keyboardist will run across the stage shouting "Eureeka!"? Probably not, but if it pleases the drummer then it's good.

 

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

Is it taken for granted among trained drummers that double stroke rolls should have 2 distinct tones?

No, not at all. It all depends on the circumstances. If you're playing an orchestral gig then you're going to try and get the roll sounding as smooth and homogenous as possible. Playing a funk gig? The you're going to do whatever you want to hear. Listen to Stanton Moore - he plays all over the head so that each stroke sounds different and serves a different purpose.

 

There is no ultimate right or wrong - whatever works on the gig, or satisfies your needs, is right. As Lee stated, trying to make everything sound the same is boring as hell and usually results in ... well ... everything sounding the same.

 

--

Rob

[I I mjrn]

Well, I did say "primarily" not solely.

Of course they're also a way of semi-automatically inserting accents into repeated strokes.

That's something I noticed about the recorded examples of double-stroke rolls & what made me wonder about this in the first place. The strokes themselves seemed level but the timbre gave them away as different & functioned (or could function) as a sort of accent.

 

It occurs to me there may be some misunderstanding of my question; I'm not confused that players would use different timbres deliberately but wondering that the matter wasn't addressed in these cases when seemingly every other aspect of alternate hand technique was, including timbral considerations in other regards.

[Lee Flier]

I dunno, they might simply have left out that part of the equation. I agree with joeq that they probably varied the timbre on purpose in the videos so you could hear the differences between the two hands and switching up L-R on paradiddles, etc.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

Well, I did say "primarily" not solely.

Of course they're also a way of semi-automatically inserting accents into repeated strokes.

That's something I noticed about the recorded examples of double-stroke rolls & what made me wonder about this in the first place. The strokes themselves seemed level but the timbre gave them away as different & functioned (or could function) as a sort of accent.

 

It occurs to me there may be some misunderstanding of my question; I'm not confused that players would use different timbres deliberately but wondering that the matter wasn't addressed in these cases when seemingly every other aspect of alternate hand technique was, including timbral considerations in other regards.

It is addressed. I think that you are being presumptuous that it's not addressed ... solely based on a few recordings you've heard. Again, I don't know who you are listening to or who is doing this, but most professional drummers will play at the center of the Snare or slightly off center ... and are very diligent with the sound and timbre they are producing.

 

We're taught from a young age about keeping the tips of the sticks close together and playing in the same area of the drum. Also, one drum will respond differently than another drum. I have a Gretsch snare that, if you don't play dead center, the timbre differences are VERY noticeable.

 

Drummers play on various parts of the surface to create timbre differences, just like a guitarist gets various timbre differences when playing (picking, strumming) on various areas of the strings. Both drummers and guitarists bring out various partials or harmonics from the instrument, all depending where you play.

 

So ... maybe you should post some of these audio examples you are listening to that are causing you to have this deduction about drummers and the way the instrument is played. Post an MP3 of a drummer playing a Double Stroke Roll or something. The goal should be one can play the rudiment so that the sticking is not revealed ... but that doesn't mean how it must be played in performance.

 

Also note ... it's not just the drum, and where it's played, that dictates the timbre. If the drumsticks are not perfectly matched, you WILL hear timbre differences ... even if you play in the exact same spot of the drum with each alternating stroke.

 

One final note ... as much as a player may try, the timbre between alternating strokes will NEVER be EXACTLY the same. There are always going to be some slight nuances to the sound. There are a number of factors that play into the timbre of a drum ... not just where it's struck (as I already mentioned). Evidence of this can be seen when you purchase professional drum samples. When the various velocities of strokes are sampled, often times they also sample right AND left hand strokes. Why? Because it's a given that there are slight nuance differences between the right and left hand strokes. We are using a wood stick ... wood is made by God ... so the density, etc., has some slight variances to it.

 

Many drumstick makers check to see that the weight, density and pitch of each stick is matched with it's counterpart; that's how sticks are paired together.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I for one use intentionally mismatched sticks- after all, my hands aren't matched. A slightly heavier stick in the left hand gives power and weight where it's needed, and oftentimes I want a different stick for ride cymbal than for snare. Plus, having two different sticks, for instance one ebony and one rosewood, gives a complex timbre to drum rolls and that- more tones, more color, more better. This is unusual I know, but it's great! Surprised it's not more common.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

This is unusual I know, but it's great! Surprised it's not more common.

... and I'm surprised that you are surprised.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Drum practice is different than drum playing, as Bartman hinted. The weak hand is always weaker than the dominant hand (usually R), so it's good practice to spend a lot of time leading with the weak hand. Your dominant hand probably doesn't need much practice compared to the weak hand.

 

LRLR sounds different from LLRR sounds different from LRRL sounds different from RRRR sounds different from LLLL. I can pick it out every time, but I might have to slow the tape down to hear that fast!

 

The late great Elvin Jones made an art out of playing (for instance) LLLL on the snare, and RRRR on the floor tom- try it, it sounds and feels completely and totally different from RLRL on the snare followed by RLRL on the tom. It's very hard not to get frozen up and stiff playing this way at moderate to fast tempos- Elvin could do it, I'm really struggling! But it's SO different, and so cool, I'm gonna do what I can to get it...

 

Another one: Classical percussionists will often play an entire part with their right hand, if at all possible. Why? So every note can sound as good as possible. That's performance, not practice. In practice, you need to sound however you sound in order to get the weak parts strong- in performance, do whatever works best!

 

4. Cymbals- all cymbals sound different, each and every one of them. You might be able to generalize by make and model, but the individual cymbal itself is what makes the most difference. When you find the right one, grab it! There's not another one quite like it anywhere.

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by Bartman:

It is addressed. I think that you are being presumptuous that it's not addressed ... solely based on a few recordings you've heard. Again, I don't know who you are listening to or who is doing this, but most professional drummers will play at the center of the Snare or slightly off center ... and are very diligent with the sound and timbre they are producing.

 

Well, as stated, my question is prompted because it's not addressed in the lessons I've seen; two examples: Levon Helm (though his is a very folksy & rambling lesson) & Dave Weckl , who surprised me by being very precise about everything except this.

Frankly, doing a series of data conversions, etc., & posting them here is more work than I plan just to prove this tiny point.

If you're intent on checking my veracity, check into any lessons & maybe hip me to those who address this issue.

 

The goal should be one can play the rudiment so that the sticking is not revealed ... but that doesn't mean how it must be played in performance.

 

That's exactly what I would think concerning practice; in performance the differences are probably less apparent....although the pitch was higher for the stick striking nearer the head's edge.

 

Thanks for the mention of sample discs that deal with related points & for the alternate ideas about stick selection from you & Ted N.

[Tedly Nightshade]

FWIW I play most backbeats towards the very edge of the snare head- I love the pingy harmonic-rich sound there. The timbale effect, to some extent. Can be very difficult to get the snares to behave well though. The closer to the center of the drum you strike, the quicker the snares shut up. It can be messy towards the edge of the head, one reason why people often do the ghosty stuff there and the whacks towards the middle.

 

Mel Brown told a friend of mine that he didn't need a tone control- he just played closer to the center the deader he wanted it.

[I I mjrn]

Is that Mel Brown the guitarist or a drummer?

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

Is that Mel Brown the guitarist or a drummer?

He's a jazz drummer in Portland OR. Can recommend the Mel Brown B3 Quartet album. He's played with the Supremes and a lot of big names, very old school- he actually played some drum tracks on All Things Must Pass, but he's not credited.