two questions about recording drums

[karambos]

I have to record drums next week. I've never done it before. I've got one Neumann TLM103, one Shure SM57, two Shure SM58's and one Sennheiser 421 at my disposal (note: no bass drum mic)

 

I don't mind buying a bassdrum mic but which? The AKG D112? The Sennheiser E602? Something by Peavey? That's my first question.

 

Then my next question is: how? I've got a 16 track mixer and a soundcard with two ins and two outs. I figure one mic for the bass (centred) the SM57 for the snare (panned slightly right) one SM58 for the toms and the Neumann for an overhead. All the mics connected to the mixer and then sent to a subgroup going to the soundcard.

 

Does that sound good? Bad? Any further suggestions?

 

Cheers

[Lee Flier]

I think you've got the right idea, except that you're wrong if you think you don't have a kick mic - the 421 is a great kick mic. It's also a classic mic for toms. If you are willing to buy another mic for the kick, what I'd do is use the 421 on the floor tom (assuming this is a 4 piece kit?) and then you only have to use the 58 for the rack tom (or both of them if you have 2 rack toms). For a kick mic, either of those you mention (D112 or E602) are great, everyone seems to like the D112 but I personally prefer the 602 out of the two. I own the EV ND-868 for kick, which I really like a lot. Any of these will do a great job and are the same price.

 

A few other important tips: pay really close attention to the mic placement. Multiple mics can have phase problems if they're placed wrong, and the tone of the drums can change drastically just by moving one mic an inch or two. Don't point any mic so that the capsule is directly aimed at the drum - each one should be angled slightly so it's looking "across" the drum a bit. This is especially important with the kick drum - you don't want to point the mic directly at the beater. If you put it up fairly close to the beater, make sure you point it slightly toward the shell.

 

Also, don't assume your "overhead" mic has to be overhead, particularly if your room doesn't have high ceilings. The TLM103 can sound very harsh on cymbals, and if you put it right over the top of the kit, you could end up with all cymbals and not very good sounding ones at that. Move the mic around to different heights and placements and see where it sounds best. If you've only got one overhead, a lot of times it sounds great BEHIND the drummer and right at the top of his head. That way you're getting the kit from his perspective. Don't be afraid to move the mic to some crazy places because you never know what will sound good. Different placements often sound good for different songs, too.

 

The ideal way to place drum mics is to sit in the control room (or wear isolating headphones if you don't have a separate control room) and listen while the drummer plays and an assistant moves the mics around. Then when they hit a "sweet spot" you'll be able to hear it. Hopefully the room you're tracking in is halfway decent sounding.

 

Also, particularly since you won't be able to "fix" anything in the mix later, make sure the drums are tuned well and have fresh heads, and hardware that doesn't rattle or squeak. Old heads, bad tuning and badly maintained hardware can be real session killers. Of course, a bad drummer is even worse. Hopefully you have a drummer who's experienced in the studio, has a great kit that he knows how to tune well and can make you look great for your first drum session!

 

Good luck.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

I'm no expert but I recorded drums this summer in a similar way to what you're doing.

 

First, Lee is exactly right about tuning the drums. If you don't know how to do that search online and get those things sounding nice acoustically. That can't be overemphasized.

 

Next, spend some an extra 15 minutes or half hour recording your drums and listening back to your levels. Have the drummer slowly make his way around the drumset. Kick, bass and cymbals levels are most important but everything is important.

 

Last, I used the Shure Beta 52 bass drum mic and I'm pretty happy with the thud I caught. There are others that'll work I expect. My brother said that he read someplace that hitting the cymbals really hard is a bad idea. That the high end will cut through fine without destroying the cymbals. But then, the violence on the kit might be what you're looking for.

 

One more thing. Consider picking up a pair Oktava condensers for your overheads. They aren't too expensive. I tried these 2 weeks ago and I noticed an improvement in my overall drum sound.

 

Good luck!

[Siberian]

Lance, Which Oktava's are you using for overheads? I have a pair of MK-012 small diaphragm condensors and they work very well for drum overheads. For a budget home studio, they really work well. You can get them for $99 bucks each at Guitar Center.

 

PS- I also like the Beta 52 for kick drum. I've never had any problems getting a nice sound out of my kick with that mic. Not to say there aren't plenty of other great choices out there. Just, the 52 works for me.

[Allan Speers]

A couple of great post, above.

 

For kick mics, also check out the Audio Technica ATM25 -Often my favorite, depending on the drum. The 52 is a bit overly thuddy, IMO, but can work with judicious eq. It wouldn't be my first choice for a novice engineer.

 

Also, if you don't need a big left-right crash thing, a single overhead can sound a LOT better than two (esp if you take Lee's advice), as it poses less phase problems.

 

BTW: Maybe it's just me, but it makes me nuts when someone calls a kick drum a "bass drum." Bass drums are those things used in marching bands!

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Originally posted by Siberian:

Lance, Which Oktava's are you using for overheads? I have a pair of MK-012 small diaphragm condensors and they work very well for drum overheads. For a budget home studio, they really work well. You can get them for $99 bucks each at Guitar Center.

.

Hey Siberian, yeah it's the MK-012s. I'm very impressed with the sound of those. I recorded a demo and the drums are better without a doubt.

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

BTW: Maybe it's just me, but it makes me nuts when someone calls a kick drum a "bass drum." Bass drums are those things used in marching bands!

Well, when you consider that the origin of the kick drum is that it used to be the bass drum from a marching band it all kinda makes sense.

 

Plus the other drums range from soprano to alto to tenor to baritone (or some variation theoreof depedning on your kit), it makes sense for the (usually) lowest pitched drum to be the bass drum. And seeing as how the fundamental pitch of the drum is usually between 60Hz and 80Hz, I'd say that qualifies as bass

 

Btw Allan, you've had a private message from me sitting in your inbox for a month

 

--

Rob

[Allan Speers]

It's still a kick drum!

 

BTW, I STILL haven't figured out how to get notified about private messages. That "notify me by email..." check-box doesn't exist on my version of Netscape.

 

Perhaps when I switch to OSX and safari I'll be able to do it.

 

I'll locheck your pm now.

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

It's still a kick drum!

Of course it is. In the same way that burgandy and maroon are terms both used to describe the same colour

 

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

BTW, I STILL haven't figured out how you're supposed to know when you have a private message. i absolutely never see them 'cause I don't know they're there. -but I'll look for yours now.

If you would have read my message a month ago you'd know how by now

 

--

Rob

[Allan Speers]

Oh yeah, the "Lesbian cattle rancher" joke.

 

It doesn't HAVE a punchline.

 

Maybe it should be modified: "A lesbian cattle rancher, a drummer, and a dwarf walk into a bar...."

 

-Still no punchline, but I'm sure someone could dream something up. After all, it's pretty easy to make fun of drummers!

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

That "notify me by email..." check-box doesn't exist on my version of Netscape.

You are checking in your board profile, right? Not your browser setup? Dumb question but sometimes they gotta be asked

 

I get a screen in my profile that looks like this:

http://www.rob-burgess.com/Cool/ScreenCap.jpg

 

You don't get these options?

 

--

Rob

Yeah I know this discussion shouldn't really be in the drum forum, but Allan doesn't check his PMs

[Allan Speers]

Nope. None of that shows up at all.

 

-but thanks for the help, regardless.

[Tedly Nightshade]

How do you feel about bull fiddle? Isn't that thing upright bass?

 

I use concert bass drums for kit- 28" and 32". That's my kick.

 

You wouldn't use them in marching band though.

[karambos]

Hi all,

 

astoundingly good advice. Thankyou all.

 

I've ended up with a Beyerdynamic opus 99 for the bass drum.

 

I have another question now regarding the "direction" that one should point the mic in when recording the snare (and toms). I've heard conflicting advice. Namely:

 

1) you should point the snare mic directly at the drum and

2) you should point the snare mic "across" the drum.

 

which is correct?

[Lee Flier]

Well, either one can work in different situations, but in general, slightly across the drum works better, particularly the way you're doing it. If you point the mic directly at the drum you'll get more isolation, but you'll capture less of the full body of the drum and get mostly attack. This is OK if you intend to heavily process the individual drums at mixdown or (gasp) trigger samples. But if you're trying to actually capture a natural drum sound, you want to angle the mics a bit so they're looking both down and across the drum - that way they pick up a fuller range of sound.

 

Snare mic positioning can be tricky and you want to experiment with that a lot just like with the overhead. If you're using a 57, start by putting it at roughly a 45 degree angle or even shallower, pointing across the drum, on the hi hat side so that the hats are as directly off axis as possible (that way you get less hat bleed in the snare). You may or may not be happy with that. If you're not, try increasing or decreasing the angle, and also try moving it a few inches off the side of the shell so you're getting even more of the shell. You really never do know what's going to work best for snare!

 

Also, if the hat bleed into the snare mic really does sound awful when combined with the overhead (you do want to check them in combination), you might even want to forget trying to eliminate it and put it more on axis so the hat bleed sounds better. Make it work for you instead of against you. For me, I usually have to do this because 1) I typically use a condenser mic on the snare, and 2) the drummer in my band often tends to beat the hell out of the hi hats.

 

Toms are easier, just aiming them at an angle so they're pointed mostly at the head but a little across, seems to work very reliably, so long as the tom sounds good and the mic is decent.

[Corner Pocket]

They don't always have to be drums. I have it from a fairly reliable source, (Jack Richardson), that on one or two records by The Guess Who have a leather chair being hit by a canoe paddle for the snare sound.

 

The point is to experiment and think outside the box.

 

Paul

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by rockincyanblues:

The point is to experiment and think outside the box.

And then you have guys like Steve Gadd playing the box ... with brushes.

 

--

Rob

[Lee Flier]

Heh... yeah, I love hearing the occasional unconventional stuff used as drums. The drummer in one of my early bands had a Teac 4-track reel to reel, but he lived in an apartment so we couldn't record his full drum kit unless we went somewhere else. So we used to do these all-night recording jams where we'd find stuff that sounded sorta like drums and overdub a bunch of parts. We used a cardboard box with a pillow in it for a kick, snapped a paper bag for a snare, crinkled plastic wrap for a shaker or hats, etc. It was really fun and sounded cool! Way cooler than samples.

[karambos]

Just to let you know how it all went.

 

I bought an Opus 99 microphone from the company Beyerdynamic. The drummer brought his own set of drum mics which, he said, were fine apart from the kick and the tom mics. So I used my kick mic and his snare and overheads.

 

The kick mic I positioned inside the kick at an angle slightly away from the beater. The guy had double beaters! Could make a right racket! The snare mic mas about 5 cms from the top skin head pointing directly at it. The overheads were, well, overheads, really! I mean they pointed at the kit from above and the stands were at the front of the kit and not behind the drummer as there was no room.

 

Took seven hours to do the drums. We had one kick mic, one snare mic and two overheads. We added reverb to the snare and kick via the auxiliaries on the desk.

 

Later we compressed the two tracks and panned one slightly left and the other slightly right. Added a limiter and a fat EQ (Logic).

 

Et le Voíla!

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Cool, Glad it went well. Post an MP3 of the tune if you wanna.

[karambos]

will do. Do I have to put it on my server and then post the link or can I add it as an attachment?

 

In other owrds: I don't know how to post an mp3 here!

 

Grateful for tips

 

-k-

[where02190]

the 421 will make a decent kick/bass drum mic, what you need is the best overheads you can afford. Overheads are IMHO the heart of a good drum sound. Spend time placing the overhead mics so that the kit sounds full, balanced and rich using just overheads. Now add the missing components, usually a room mic(the neuman), a kick mic(421) and maybe a snare(57).

 

Presto, you got drum sounds.

 

Proper tuning, room sound, and mic placement are key elements. Don't try to fix a bad sound with eq, change the mic, tuning, head, etc to get the sound you want.