Ultra Expensive Snares: worth it?

[Allan Speers]

You know the brands:

 

Noble and Cooley, Dunnett, Le Soprano. Stanbridge....

 

When you start spending $800 and up, are there really sonic or playability differences, or are you paying for looks, prestige, etc?

 

I mean, Standbridge has a maple snare with flanged hoops and a ply shell for around $850. I don't get it. At least N&C uses solid shells. I don't know if that really sounds better, but at least I realize that it's an expensive process. -But will either sound significantly "better" than my Tama Star Classic 6 X 14 or DW 8 X 14 Maple?

 

I love my $50 used-bargain Ludwig supraphonic, but those N&C Alloy classic's sure are calling my name. But what exactly would I get for the money?

--------------------

 

In general,

What exactly do you look for in a "dream" snare? Lots of overtones? Lack of overtones? Sensitivity? Balls?

 

Are really deep snares not sensitive enough?

 

Some say versatility is important, but I say that no one snare can fit all styles anyway. better to do just one thing exceptionally well...

 

Any particular models that keep you up at night?

[Dwarf]

I love snare drums. My favourite by far was a Brady Wandoo stave shell snare. Unfortunately it died If I had more money I'd have a bunch of snares, but for now I'm using my Tama Bell Brass.

 

What do I look for in a snare? Tight punchy sound. I don't want one that's all high overtones (I hate most birch snares). I want to be able to mucially grab the guy in the front row and knock him out, and then gently caress his girlfriend

 

It's kinda hard to describe the perfect snare sound since, for me, the sound has changed over the years. But I know it when I play it.

 

--

Rob

[Allan Speers]

How does a snare die?

[Dwarf]

How does a snare die?

 

Well...when I bought my Brady I hated the hardware on it so I changed it. All of it. I had to enlarge some of the existing holes and drill some new ones. Btw, if anyone ever asks you to drill Wandoo you'd better make sure you have a machine shop - this wood is ten times harder than rock maple and was a real bitch to do with a hand drill.

 

So anyway, the thing about a stave shell is that it's not plywood, you don't have crossed woodgrains giving you that extra strength. All the drilling must have created microfractures in the shell. After about ten years the snare strainer died and while I was drilling holes to put in a new one the snare cracked in half. Looking at the shell I noticed a bunch of little cracks that were waiting to grow up and realised that gluing the shell back together would only fix it temporarily. I'd rather it break on a workbench than on a gig, so I tossed it.

 

Broke my heart to throw that drum out, it was the best sounding snare I'd ever heard

 

--

Rob

[Blue Strat]

I think Peavey's snare drums are put together with solid wood, in a whiskey-barrel type fashion. Is that what you mean by stave construction? They've got wood rings with inserts around the outside that the tension rods screw into.

[Lee Flier]

Dunno about the others, but there is definitely a sonic difference between Noble & Cooley snares and any other I've heard. I would definitely say they're worth the money if you have it, I've just never heard any typical snare that sounds that good.

 

Aside from being solid maple, all of the hardware is made by hand and fitted by hand to the shell, so there are no unwanted overtones or resonances anywhere. I toured the factory and quite literally there were two people doing all the metalwork by hand, and it shows. N&C is still located in the same old building where they started before the Civil War, and not much of their technique has changed since then. No assembly lines there, that's for sure!

 

Now this doesn't mean the tone isn't complex - it is! It just means you don't have any ringing or rattling where you don't want it, and nothing is killing the true tone of the shell. It really is quite an amazing thing especially when recording, as I already knew from recording them at studios that had them and/or drummers who rented them. Mind you I'm nutso about my Gretsch Broadkaster snare and drummers drool over it... and there are lots of snares that sound great for various applications... but IMO nothing beats an N&C for total in your face snare sound.

[Dwarf]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

I think Peavey's snare drums are put together with solid wood, in a whiskey-barrel type fashion. Is that what you mean by stave construction? They've got wood rings with inserts around the outside that the tension rods screw into.

That sounds similar. Although the rings around the drums are pretty much Peavey only (unless someone has copied the look).

 

This isn't a Brady it's a pretty clear picture of stave shell construction

http://www.oregondrum.com/stave_virtual.jpg

 

--

Rob

[Jazzman]

Being a Jazz and Funk drummer, I like different tones to work together in a studio environment. If I had the money I would buy a few more snares of different types just for that reason.

 

There was a song that I was listening to a while back where the drummer played a real sweet drum pattern on a snare (that had to be miked on both sides of it). The drummer was really working the snare very lightly for a Smooth Jazz tune and you could hear every bit of his playing. The hair stood up on my arms just listening to this. I wish I could remember the tune to share it with you folks.

 

Give me a crummy drum set and a very good snare and a very good hi-hat would make me happy indeed. If you know how to do intricate work with the sticks, playing light, soft and loud, then a very good snare is the way to go, because you are worth that, and the good drums will be able to handle all aspects of the style being played.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Jazzman

[coyote]

While different shell configurations will indeed produce different tones, you should be able to get GREAT tone from any quality snare drum provided it hasn't been somehow damaged.

 

An $800 snare drum would probably be very cool! But it ain't gonna make you any better a player (unless owning it inspires you to practice three hours daily). So, is it "worth it"? I've been playing decades, and I wouldn't consider purchasing one unless I had quite a bit of 'discretionary' income. Ultimately, it's a question each player needs answer for him/herself.

[gmd]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Lee Flier about the Noble and Cooley. (Unfortunately, because of the $600+ price tag.) I don't own one, but have been tracking drums at a friend's studio here in Dallas where Erica Badu, D.O.C., and a lot of other R&B and rappers record. He has one, and it really does record well. It's a subtle thing, and at first I wasn't impressed, but after laying down a drum track and then going into the control to listen to the play-back, the snare really sat nicely in the mix. Dunno how it stacks up to some of the other "boutique" snares, but if I came across one at a good price I'd buy it...

[Allan Speers]

Yep, Lee was right.

 

I just picked up an N&C black alloy classic (cast aluminum.) Man, what a great and versatile drum.

 

It does the brass thing ANd the maple (well, maybe walnut) thing equally well. Overtones are PERFECT. tuning range is obscenely wide. I can't make it sound bad, and so far it's been sitting in tracks like a dream.

 

Now I'm lusting after a Dunnet, or maybe a Spaun segmented... Wait, I'm not even really a drummer!

 

Must...... stop................. must...... not....... buy........ more .........stuff....... arrrrggghhhhhh

[ss]

Are they worth it? Well, yes and no.

I guess its a question of your definition of "worth". I mean, what percent of $800 do you think it cost the manufacturer to produce an $800+ snare. My point is that I'm sure the mark up is out of this world because people will pay it.

Lets look at the other side of the topic and ask yourself, where are you gonna get a new, great sounding N&C snare (if thats what you want) for $300? People may say that this or that is a better deal or that they have tuned their lesser snare to sound just as good, but the fact is that if I said to these people that I'll sell them a new N&C snare for $300 they would most likley be all over it. I know that I would!

The sad truth is that is all about supply and demand. If drummers hated N&C snares than you could buy one for dirt cheap.

[Zircon Skye]

Great thread!

 

Thanks for all the input. Seems like the absolute hardest thing to get right is snare sound and I'm sure it depends on player, drum, room, mic, pre and processing in that approximate order.

 

I have a couple specific questions for those N & C advocates. From Lee's comments I would figure she's preferring the maple N&C. Allan seems more than satisfied with the cast aluminum -- Given an choice for one great studio drum which would you prefer. Allan did you get the 4 3/4" or 6" version? Any thoughts from some who may have compared these particular drums N&C solid maple compared to the aluminum?

 

If you could have one and JUST ONE which would you choose for recording or like to see if you're a drummer in studio for Rock and Pop? The N & C Maple SS model or the Alloy Classic? Would you rather have a deeper shell?

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Zircon Skye

www.zirconskye.com

[Allan Speers]

I got the 6" Aluminum. I wanted more of a cannon. Honestly, I'm not sure I made the right decision, it was REALLY tough. The shallower shell seemed to have more focus, which might have recorded better. However, in general I like a big beefy backbeat, so I went that way.

 

I actually prefer the N&C maple, but I already have a Tama Star Classic G-MAPLE 6 X 14 and a vintage DW 8 X 14 Maple. Both of those are FABULOUS snares, so I have the maple thing covered.

 

I suppose I still really "need" a bell-brass snare, though the N&C aluminum clearly overlaps into that territory.

[Lee Flier]

Allan... I don't mean to totally set off another GAS attack or anything but (oh gawd should I even say this?)....

 

When I was at the N&C factory they showed me a limited edition snare they are making as a joint venture with Zildjian. They make it out of cymbal brass.

 

I wasn't aware of the aluminum snare until I went to N&C, but I was really impressed with it. I still don't think anything beats the maple, personally, but if I had the change I'd gladly have one of each. I think a studio should ideally have several different snares of different materials/depths, as there is really no such thing as one snare fits all. Though I wouldn't complain if all I could use for the rest of my life was a maple N&C.

[Allan Speers]

Must..... not........ mention the....... N&C / Zildjian bronze .....snare ......... must ...... not ...................

[Lee Flier]

I know... I am EVIL... EEEEvil I tell you...

[bleen]

Howdy (Hi Lee!! ),

 

I'm the gent that gave Lee the tour at N&C while I was still working there. Allan, don't check out the Zildjian/N&C - you'll just have to buy one if you do!

 

There's some new N&C stuff coming out next month at NAMM that may have you drooling for more...two 13" drums that are phenomenally versatile (Lee saw a prototype in my office) - one wood, one aluminum. I'd post photos, but you'll have to wait for the show....

[Zircon Skye]

So Bleen,

 

May I pose my same question again to you--If you could have only one N&C Snare for recording -- Specfically which would you pick -- the Allow Classic or the Maple SS -- which size would be your choice? Let's say you go in studio to record pop or rock and are producing -- which would be your preference for availability???

 

Thanks to Lee and Allan and all who are posting on this topic.

 

Zircon Skye

www.zirconskye.com

[bleen]

Zircon,

 

Wow, that's a tough choice!! I think that I'd probably go with the Alloy Classic because it has the versatility to be warm like a wood shell and crack like a metal. I would also go for the shallower depth (4.75") as it can be tuned down for a fatter sound, but tunes higher more easily for more sensitive snare work.

 

Of course, in a perfect world, given the choice, I'd take both!

[Dave Bechtel]

I've got one of the N&C 10th anivers. special edition snares...best snare i've ever heard. I'd highly reccomend anything by N&C.

[gmd]

FYI-The Noble & Cooley I mention in my above reply is the black, metal shell(aluminum?)snare...

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I'm with bleen (hi bleen! ) - I'll take one of each please.

[existence]

Noble & Cooley do make fantastic sounding instruments -- that's why I own the Zildjian Alloy snare and a full set of CD Maples. And while sonically and technically their drums are hard to beat (no pun intended), I do have (suprisingly) some concerns about quality. For instance, the alloy snare had a beautiful gun metal chrome finish on the diecast hoops and tubular tuning lugs. I say had because despite my best efforts to carefully store and preserve this drum this finish has almost totally disintegrated down to bare metal - severely comprimising the value of this otherwise highly-collectable piece (not that I'd sell it anyway.) Also, right after receiving my set of CD Maples, the piano black finish started cracking from edge to edge down the lenghth of the drums. I had to send three toms and my bass drum hoops back for refinishing. In the case of my 12" tom, they had to replace the entire drum with a new shell, and looking at the interior wood grain it looked suspiciously 'B stock' to me -- lots of open grain and blemishes and it never sounded as good as the original. Also, when refinishing they dented/scratched some of the hardware on the drums (from putting it in a clamp or vise, it looked like.) They were unwilling to replace the damaged hardware despite my talking to the president of the company - I had to pay for new lugs, and live with the hoops as is.

 

Now I'm not here to cast too dark a shadow on this company, as they have a remarkable history and I play their drums almost every day -- and would still recommend them. However, with all the accolades they get, I wanted to point out that there are potential problems -- for instance I would NOT take my CD Maples out on the road, the finish is just too fragile. I did A LOT of research before deciding on their drums over those of other companies, and was very suprised to run into Q/A and service issues -- the very thing I was trying to avoid by going with a highly-touted 'boutique' company.

 

This was a few years ago, and I'm sure they have sorted some of this out now, but 2 out of 2 for me means that I will most likely look elsewhere for my next 'high end' snare or drumset.

 

Regards,

 

David

[Allan Speers]

Interesting post, David. I must admit, when looking for N&C deals on ebay, most of the older N&C's look pretty bad. lots of worn-off chrome, chipped anodizing, etc. My 6" Alloy classic is only a few months old, and already bits of black are chipping off the hoop from rimshots. Maybe that's normal, I dunno.

 

Update: I picked up a used 4.75" alloy classic, to compliment my 6" Got a decent deal on Ebay so I couldn't refuse. I'm amazed at how much bottom the thing has. although the 6" has more overall bottom and punch, the 4.75 comes amazingli close, and has the advantage of a higher resonant frequency. This helps it cut through the mix better. -So I agree with Bleen that the 4.75 is the better bet overall, but for a different reason.

 

Another note: The Aluminum snares are darker than most maple snares, but are punchier in the mids. Listened to acoustically, one almost thinks they are too dark. however, the crack dials in easily with a little eq. By comparison, it's almost impossible to dial-in punch on a thin sounding maple snare. (not that I have anything against maple.)

 

And oh man, I just played an 8" Dunnet titanium. I never heard anything like it. knocked me backwards, ripped my eyelids off.... It might actually be TOO loud and-or bright for recording, but it's the most jaw-dropping, "in a class by itself" sound I've ever heard.

[Allan Speers]

I just bumped into something interesting:

 

http://blackswamp.com/

 

Thses guys make primarily symphonic instruments, but their snares look pretty much like any other incredibly well-made snare, with the addition of seriously adjustable strainers.

 

They offer solid maple shells, and even a model with quick-change strainers. Same price range as N&C.

 

Has anyone ever tried these for use with a regular drumkit? Are those fancy strainers useful?

[Dwarf]

Btw Allan, have you seen this thread at another drum forum?

 

Drumsmith.com

 

--

Rob

[alcohol_]

So can I get a good snare for $300, $400, or $500?

 

I listened to three bands last night. This one guy got a great sound out of his snare. It was a Maple Ludwig. I know being able to tune the drum is important, but isn't the quality important too.

 

No matter whether he hit the snare hard or soft that snare cut through. Wasn't miked.

 

Not a drummer but I own an old set of Pearl's with good cymbals and hardware. I have a chrome snare that i bought used for $50 and I'm tired of its sound.

[Sean Shannon]

I use and endorse DW drums, but (shhhhhh!!) I have an assortment of low and high-priced drums from big and small drum makers. I have gotten killer sounds from cheeeepie snares. I mean cutting, full, and snappy. Not to say that higher priced snares don't have a better build quality, but each drum can sound like many different drums if the tuning and head combinations are changed. But DW does make killlller drums, see mine: www.theredroomrocks.com

Cheers,

Sean

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by alcohol_:

So can I get a good snare for $300, $400, or $500?

Sure! My $400 Gretsch Broadkaster snare garners lots of "ooohs" and "aaahhs" from drummers, and it records wonderfully. There are lots of snares in this price range that do a great job, provided you've got the right heads for them and tune them well. A lot of people also improve on cheaper snares by experimenting with different snare wires and/or working on the drum to make the hardware fit better.