Should I learn piano or guitar?

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by jeremy c:

Let me know when you learn music theory by mucking around with sequencing and AI music programs.

I thought I already did.

 

 

Try playing a Bach Chorale on the guitar. Good luck.

 

You can "see" a chord on the piano in a way that only the most advanced guitarists can do.

This can easily be played using a sequencer, and with most of them you can show a realtime piano keyboard or a guitar fretboard with the chords being indicated as played, sometimes both simultaneously.

 

First of all, play triads. Now play the same chords in the first inversion (with the third on the bottom). Then play the chords in the second inversion (fifth on the bottom). You are going to have to be very good at the guitar to even attempt this and it's still not going to be easy.

 

Play a dominant seventh chord. What does it sound like if you add a ninth or a flatted ninth or a sharp ninth? On guitar you have to learn all new fingerings. On keyboard, you just have to put another finger down.

 

This is a matter of simply pointing and clicking with sequencer or standard notation software, and you can immediately hear the result AND hear it well-executed.

 

Let's work on voice leading. Play something simple like a I IV V7 I progression. Make the voices lead to each other. Make sure that the 3rd of the V7 chord resolves upward and the 7th resolves downward into the I chord.

 

You can do this on piano.

 

Can you do it on guitar?

You can do it easily with a sequencer.

Can you write an harmony arrangement for vocals and try it out on your guitar? What about a horn section arrangement? You can do these things on the piano slowly and clumsily, but you can figure out how to do them.

Again, you can do these things easily with a sequencer.

 

My point here is not that a sequencer or standard notation software is "better" than piano or guitar. It is a tool which you can use to help educate yourself about music theory WITHOUT having to learn the physical dexterity necessary to play piano or guitar. IMO, this is a benefit...you can truly focus on the music theory itself, easily try different chord progressions, voicings, whatever (including ones that you might not be physically able to execute), and better learn reading/writing standard notation at the same time.

 

I don't see how any of these benefits could be detrimental to anyone wanting to learn more about music theory.

 

Dave

[jeremy c]

Fine, don't learn piano.

[wade_g]

The one thing that gets me about learning theory on guitar is that it is tuned differently than any other instrument (except maybe the 12 string guitar) in western music.

 

I do play guitar, and its tuning is designed well to have maximum chords in minimal finger stretches. But for learning theory, I do not believe it is the most efficient way to go.

 

A easy example is working out the chords used in the C scale

(C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C) - hint: all white keys.

[...]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

It is a tool which you can use to help educate yourself about music theory WITHOUT having to learn the physical dexterity necessary to play piano or guitar.

You're not being asked to learn how to play piano when you're going through the music program at any school/college/whatever. You're just asked to figure out where the notes are and know how to plunk down C E G when someone asks you to play a C major chord. You don't have to learn anything besides the notes - and that isn't hard AT ALL on paino since it's the same pattern over and over and over. I am the world's worst piano/keyboard player. Actually I'm not a player, I'm an 'owner'. I suck. Hugely. But I can play any chord you stick in front of me that's on a piece of paper. That is the point Jeremy is making here and I completely agree with him; so do all music programs everywhere that teach western music. The visual relationships that you can draw from seeing how a chord is played on a piano is huge. It was an, "oohh, it really IS that easy!" experience for me when I took my first theory class in high school.

 

Or don't learn to play piano. Whatever. No loss on my part.

[Gruuve]

It seems my point is being missed. I'm not disagreeing that piano is one of the ideal instruments to use when studying music theory. I also agree that it's possible but not as visually straightforward and not quite as effective to use a guitar to study music theory. My only point is that a sequencer or standard notation software package is just as valid a tool as either of the above, and even better if used in conjuction with either or both of the above.

 

Just because something has historically been done a certain way does not mean that there are no other valid and effective ways to do it. If it did, the electric bass would never have been invented in the first place. Regardless, that's my opinion, I'm sticking with it, and anyone is more than welcome to agree or disagree.

 

Dave

[jeremy c]

We agree about a lot of things, Dave.

 

I have written horn arrangements into a computer program, listened to them, and printed them out. Yes, it can be incredibly useful.

 

With my music school background, it actually is easier to write arrangement by just sitting in a quiet room with a pencil and paper.

 

Kramer, I wasn't implying that playing like Mr. Vai is easy. It isn't. However, guitar is probably the easiest instrument on which you can learn something and play it in public in a short time. I know plenty of people who only seem to know six chords. Unfortunately they are often bandleaders.

[ZZ Thorn]

Well now I have no idea. I'll have to think about it. I'd really rather start on guitar first, but maybe I'll go with piano. I guess it comes down to:

 

do I want to learn theory as comprehensively as possible?

or

do I want to lead a band so I can tell Jeremy what to do, even though I only know 6 chords?

 

Thanks a lot for all the great info.

[saxofunk]

Originally posted by ZZ Thorn:

do I want to lead a band so I can tell Jeremy what to do, even though I only know 6 chords?

Leading a band and knowing 6 chords doesn't entitle you to telling Jeremy how it is. Lead three bands, acquire six blue basses, and earn at least double his income while you're at it... then you may politely correct him on occasion.

 

PS - you may want to teach a few lessons to people who grown up to be successful musicians while your at it.

[ZZ Thorn]

It was a joke. I assume that when Jeremy works with a band, like at weddings, etc., he does what the bandleader says...if he wants to get paid.

[saxofunk]

ZZ, I was joking, too. Maybe the IT guys will get the sarcasm graemlin loaded one day.

 

Jeremy makes a lot of great posts, and is therefore well respected on the forum. If, if, you catch him saying something utterly stupid please start a thread about it.

[jeremy c]

I've said my share of stupid things.

 

They're just not usually about the bass.

[Trucks]

Anyway its all relative! (hahaha use that one in a biz meeting and you'll be suprised at the positive response you get from saying nothing)

 

IMO... meaningless as it is..

 

Piano/Keyboard=A great way to get theroy AND playing down... Also if you can play keys, guitar or bass will come easier, because it gives your hands independancy of each other.. which contrary to popular beleif you dont need with guitar or bass.

 

Composing through software=It will teach you theory (i know people who only use trackers who could teach theory to bach himself) But you will not gain any ability to play an instrument.

 

Guitar=To get "really" good (i.e. not your 6 chord anybody) it takes alot of bloody time and effort (as does any stringed instrument).. More than you would have to put into either of the above.

 

If you wanna learn hardocre theory then keys are the way to go... If you dont like piano, get a synth and play around with plugins to get some funky sounds you do like.

[Eric VB]

Dave has some valid points. (Didn't I already mention this?) If the goal is to learn theory, why bother wasting time learning basic proficiency in another instrument? In something like Finale, just enter in whatever you want to hear using standard notation and let the computer play it for you with perfect technique. Using whichever patch you want: piano, guitar, harp, string quartet (maybe a little more work), a gaggle of clarinets, ... (but sadly not a hurdy gurdy).

 

It can be helpful to incorporate the logical layout of a keyboard in your understanding of music. We talked about this a while back. It gives your mind a tangible framework to wrestle with. So certainly there is a bonus here that goes beyond merely studying another instrument.

 

The only crazy analogy I can come up with off hand is operation codes (opcodes) used to instruct a computer's CPU which operation to perform. If you see them listed in decimal you might see a pattern, but if you see them in binary it makes a lot more sense (usually), because you're seeing the opcodes in a more logical way.

 

Obviously guitar and bass guitar share a lot of similarities, as much as we here on the LD and those on GP like to accentuate the differences. When it comes to playing chords on guitar (especially if you've never played any on bass), it takes a while to develop enough dexterity to be able to play any chord, let alone any chord under the sun. And that teeny, tiny string spacing. (Fortunately they make guitars with wider spacing for those of us that are used to it.)

 

Now, just looking around quickly, you can pick up a starter acoustic guitar pack for $100-$200. Off hand I'd guess they'd be in the same quality ballpark as similarly priced bass starter packs.

 

For keys, I'd say you need to look at $200 and up. The stuff below that, pricewise, just seems too toy-like to me: non-standard key size, only a couple octaves, really awful feel, etc. (If you really want to "impress" the KC crowd, get a model with lighted keys and use the transpose function to play everything in the key of C. )

 

They are two different animals. Go to your local music store and try several of each. Or get software instead.

[Trucks]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Now, just looking around quickly, you can pick up a starter acoustic guitar pack for $100-$200. Off hand I'd guess they'd be in the same quality ballpark as similarly priced bass starter packs.

You would honestly be better off putting wet string on a cereal box

[butcherNburn]

I say both.

The guitar will give you things you can immediately relate to bass, but the piano can contribute more to your "total wealth of knowledge" as far as music is concerned.

 

I think you know your own answer. If not, what moves you? What desire burns in your gut? Follow that, it is there that you will succeed.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by Trucks.Of.Love:

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Now, just looking around quickly, you can pick up a starter acoustic guitar pack for $100-$200. Off hand I'd guess they'd be in the same quality ballpark as similarly priced bass starter packs.

You would honestly be better off putting wet string on a cereal box

Yeah, well, wait 'till Ellwood finds this thread. He'll probably recommend starting on something that runs $2,000 to $5,000.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by butcherNburn:

what moves you? What desire burns in your gut? Follow that, it is there that you will succeed.

In true B'n'B fashion, I must answer: onions. They move me, and my bowels.

 

You have discovered my one weakness. My kryptonite. Good day.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by jeremy c:

Kramer, I wasn't implying that playing like Mr. Vai is easy. It isn't. However, guitar is probably the easiest instrument on which you can learn something and play it in public in a short time. I know plenty of people who only seem to know six chords. Unfortunately they are often bandleaders.

Whew! I spent today hoping that you wouldn't misconstrue my post as some sort of flame, 'cause it really wasn't.

 

But I'm not sure about the time-to-market of guitar vs. keys. Conceivably, you could join a band and sit behind a keyboard doing "washes" and drones all night and nobody would hold it against you.

 

I sort of agree with you about sequencing being second best. I must admit that whenever I've mucked around with sequencing (cakewalk and the like), I've found it a pretty soulless experience, really. Nothing like finding a chord on a piano at all. I guess that that lack of instant gratification could work against someone sticking at learning. But that's just my opinion.

 

 

Oh, and Bach wrote for the lute as well, and a lot of that music has since been transcribed for the guitar. Mind you, playing Bach on any sort of instrument is NOT a real choice for beginners, is it?

 

So yeah, you're probably right about the piano being, objectively, a better choice. But I also think it ultimately comes down to personal preferences and that there's truckloads to be said in favour of guitar.

[Paul K]

Sort of relevant to the theory thread:

A thought I've had is that if I were to learn guitar all over again I would tune in fourths across the board like Stanely Jordan does. (Nope...not gonna do it now....)

 

Not relevant to this theory thread but relevant to becoming a better bass player: If I had more time and were studying bass with the intensity I did optometry, I'd learn the drums much better than I have. Most all of the bass players who hit my "WOW" button were drummers before becoming bass players.