amps... cheap and loud?

[jmcd]

im looking for a new amp... i have a peavey tko 115 that my cousin gave me... but im looking for something louder but cheap as well...

 

i heard no less than 400W minimum to play with a drummer...? im looking for something loud enough to play with guitarists and drummers, but clear too. something that i can turn it down when i play by myself, and still ahve good sound and also turn it up, and have good sound but i dont want to have to turn it up all the way to the point that i damage the thing. my peavey suffered on that side of things...

 

I'm also looking for something cheap... but not like the bottom end cheap stuff. something that will work for practice and maybe some local gigs or something. nothing to fancy just something to get me by.

[wraub]

IIRC, the standard rule is 3-4 times the guitarist's wattage, the drummer's usually a smaller part of the equation.

 

Additionally, I've played 400 watts into a 1x12 cabinet w/ a 3 piece with a loud guitarist and a loud drummer. Not enough. The same load into a 4x12 would have been peachy in that situation.

 

 

Are you looking for a combo, a head and cabinet, or what?

What kind of music?

What's your budget?

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[jmcd]

my music is pretty much any genre, mostly rock or something like that. i listen to a lot of music and pretty much everything from jam bands to metal bands and everything in between, im not so much into pop, pop rock or the cant-understand-what-he's-saying-metal ... but classic rock is what im playing right now... (zeppelin, hendrix, allman bros, and stuff b4 and after.)

 

im just starting... actually 2 of my closest friends just started as well...(drum and guitar) kinda of a "we all love music lets start a band" type of thing...

 

but im probably looking for a head and cab... maybe a good head and a cheap cab... im figuring once i graduate this spring ill use my b-day christmas and graduation money to buy some stuff ... $1000-2000 closer to 2000 im thinking tho.

 

Im thinking about getting a decent-to-good head that would last me for a long time and a cheaper cabinet...

 

p.s. if anyone knows any good tablature sites for bass that would be great... i'm using a few as well as guitar pro and power tab...

[Gruuve]

Hmmm...as combo's get really capable and really loud, they get really expensive, so that's probably not the direction for you to go if you want to keep it cheap. I'd suggest a good 4x10 cab and something like a 300-500 watt head.

 

You might want to try to find and play through a Hartke head. They usually go cheap (I think I've seen the older 350watt head go for $150 on Ebay...no respect!) but used price considered, they sound pretty good IMHO...YMMV. I can't think of another brand of head right off that usually sells dirt cheap but is still decent. I haven't looked but perhaps some of the Ashdown heads? I doubt you'd find a Ampeg or SWR head dirt cheap, but definitely look (and play through them to see if you like how it sounds).

 

As far as cabinets go, the Carvin RedEye RL-410T's come to mind right off. These usually go for something like $200 used, and they are pretty good, used price considered. They don't produce huge sub-lows (they rolloff at 60Hz), but they've still got plenty of lower-mid thump (what you are probably used to hearing, given your current amp) and plenty of grunt. I'm not a fan of the Hartke cabs, but I'd imagine they go cheap used, so that might be worth a look...definitely try it before you buy it though...I truly dislike how they sound (particularly the ones with aluminum drivers), but that's just my own opinion...you might have a different one after trying them. I'd say most decent 410's that have a horn are going to *sound louder* to you than a similar cab without a high-frequency driver...there's a lot of cut in those highs, IMO.

 

I would avoid Behringer bass gear...it'll be appealing because it's cheap new, which means it'll be below dirt cheap used...if it lasts long enough for someone to even be able to sell it, that is.

 

You're probably going to end up with large and heavy gear, btw...loud and cheap = big and heavy.

 

One more note...the more sensitive (ie. efficient) the cabs are, the less wattage you need to get the same volume. For instance, say the loudest you'd ever need to be is 122db (pretty darned loud). A cab rated at 90 db/1watt/1meter would take 1024 watts to make it produce 122 db of SPL (assuming it would handle that wattage without dying). However, a cab rated at 93 db/1watt/1meter would only require 512 watts to produce the same SPL...half as much power. A cab rated at 96 db/1watt/1meter would only require 256 watts to produce the same 122 db of SPL....that's 25% as much power. Fascinating, huh?

 

Unfortunately, the mfg's sensitivity ratings are usually hogwash, so use your ears...you can easily hear a 6db difference...you can hear a 3db difference, but you have to listen. You pretty much have to go play through gear to see what you like (regardless of whether it's the actual amp or cab that are you intending to buy). Just make sure you listen with your ears and not your eyes!

 

HTH,

Dave

[saxofunk]

SEE THIS

 

Get a nice XLR cable and plug one end into the hole that's labelled "Line Out" and give the other end to the person running the sound system. Use what you have as a tolerable stage monitor and make the PA do the real work. Meanwhile, save your cash for the big rig.

[jcadmus]

I had a Peavey T-Max 500-watt head w/2x10 and 1x15 Peavey cabs, and that was plenty loud.

 

Pretty cheap used too.

[wraub]

You don't say where you are, but if you are in the NY metro area, I could probably get you a Peavey MK VI head w/ a Peavey 2x15 cab in good condition for around $275.

That's old skool boomin' on a budget.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Paul K]

Used Peavey Combo 300. Loud and cheap, but heavy. Not as heavy as a B3 or a Fender Rhodes, but heavy. Power to push an external speaker. Plenty of ins-and-outs to make it flexible.

[Big Daddy from Motown]

Used Peavey = cheap and loud

[jmcd]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

One more note...the more sensitive (ie. efficient) the cabs are, the less wattage you need to get the same volume. For instance, say the loudest you'd ever need to be is 122db (pretty darned loud). A cab rated at 90 db/1watt/1meter would take 1024 watts to make it produce 122 db of SPL (assuming it would handle that wattage without dying). However, a cab rated at 93 db/1watt/1meter would only require 512 watts to produce the same SPL...half as much power. A cab rated at 96 db/1watt/1meter would only require 256 watts to produce the same 122 db of SPL....that's 25% as much power. Fascinating, huh?

 

Unfortunately, the mfg's sensitivity ratings are usually hogwash, so use your ears...you can easily hear a 6db difference...you can hear a 3db difference, but you have to listen. You pretty much have to go play through gear to see what you like (regardless of whether it's the actual amp or cab that are you intending to buy). Just make sure you listen with your ears and not your eyes!

 

HTH,

Dave

is there a link you could give me that i could learn more about amps and there specifications and schematics and the ins and outs of amps and such.

 

oh btw I'm from southern minnesota, so its probably not that close to NY, although it could be farther I suppose

[jmcd]

Originally posted by Matt W:

SEE THIS

 

Get a nice XLR cable and plug one end into the hole that's labelled "Line Out" and give the other end to the person running the sound system. Use what you have as a tolerable stage monitor and make the PA do the real work. Meanwhile, save your cash for the big rig.

my peavy is an older version so it has no line out ... but it does have the other controlls but no line out... and plus the speaker is going out... once in a while it will just quit... then ill have to wiggle stuff to make the speaker work again.. its probabaly a loose wire somewhere

[Big Red 67]

Rule of three. Cheap, Loud, Good. You can only chose two.

[jmcd]

hmm how about a loud good head and a cheap loud cab.... any suggestions??

[Gruuve]

Hey Jmcd...just use the search button top left and you'll find more info than you can possibly digest on heads, cabs, preamps, power amps...you name it.

 

But in reality, you don't need to (for instance) have a schematic of each amp you plan to audition...you should be using your ears to find what sounds "good" to you, and you don't need a schematic, owner's manual, or even a brochure for that. In fact, sometimes it's better to go test something without any preconceived notions at all.

 

The only other thing to consider is that what sounds good by itself (say, a particular amp and cab) might not sound so good in the context of the band and it's mix. For instance, when playing by yourself, it often sounds good to boost the lows. When you play with a band or group, boosting the lows may have little effect (depending on where the EQ is voiced)...you might get much more mileage by boosting the mids instead once you're in the mix with drums, guitars, etc. I know it's a bit mind-boggling to think about, but try to imagine how what you're playing through will sound in the band context.

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by jmcd:

hmm how about a loud good head and a cheap loud cab.... any suggestions??

Cheap loud cab? Loud where? In the lows? Lower-mids? Upper-mids? Highs? Some combination of those?

 

Re-read what I said above...a head's loudness will be a function of how sensitive the cab it's plugged into is. So, the definition of a "loud head" will change based on what cab you hook it to. Unfortunately, most of the cheaper cabs don't have particularly good sensitivity...after all, there's some reason they are cheap, right?

 

Come to think of it, I think Wraub has an Avatar cab, which is pretty inexpensive (even new), and I think he is basically pretty happy with it. Maybe he'll chime in with some details.

 

Where cabs are concerned, there's three variables: size, frequency response, and sensitivity. You only get to choose two, the third one is dependent on the other two. For instance, you can have:

 

1) Frequency response down to the low 30's and good sensitivity, but it will be large. (Usually the approach taken by PA cab makers.)

 

2) Smaller size and weight and good sensitivity, but frequency response limits (mainly on how low it will go...this is usually the approach taken by bass guitar cab makers. I'd say most bass cabs have a hump somewhere around 80-120Hz, then they roll-off quite a bit below that. When you think of an E-string as producing 40Hz and a B-string producing 30Hz, this sounds quite ridiculous...however, the fact is that most of what you "hear" are overtones anyway, so really rolling off lows below 100Hz isn't nearly as bad as it sounds on paper...in fact, it can sit in the mix with other instruments quite well, all things considered.)

 

3) Smaller size and extended frequency response, but low sensitivity. (The Acme bass cabs are a perfect example of this...will produce lows similar to 18" PA cabs, but it takes a huge power amp to get any sound out of it.)

 

So, you'll find "cheap" in the #2 category, mainly because there's such a plethora of cabs to choose from.

 

HTH,

Dave

[wraub]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

 

Come to think of it, I think Wraub has an Avatar cab, which is pretty inexpensive (even new), and I think he is basically pretty happy with it. Maybe he'll chime in with some details.

There are many fine points in the posts of Mr. Sisk above. Read with that in mind.

 

I do have an Avatar cab, the SB112. I am more than basically happy, I'd go so far as to say I'm quite, quite pleased.

It's relatively light, well built, and sounds good. It was inexpensive shipped, around $250 or so new (although their prices have risen somewhat since). It's breaking in quite well.

 

Dave (and everyone) at Avatar has been very helpful in my dealings with him, up to and including long phone calls and free upgrades (new crossover).

I would definitely consider Avatar cabs in any budget gear search, but, as always, try before you commit to anything. Not all of ther models are equally voiced or spec'd.

 

A lot of companies, including Avatar, offer trial periods for buyers of their gear. I'd take advantage of that.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[alexclaber]

Can you wield a circular saw? This is the cheapest, loudest, good sounding cab you can get, the Bill Fitzmaurice Omni 10:

 

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20060803/f/b/8/fb8ccec90a6abea354ec67a1f79687230_large.jpg

 

http://image2.frappr.com/pix2/i/20060620/e/3/a/e3a63fc371294d253ab28a8e7c0ce6901_large.jpg

 

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20060716/5/e/a/5eacf66ca447354f7f535f72abe3a1520_large.jpg

 

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20060716/b/d/f/bdf4cd3295ec51d95c6c00d7e21f24560_large.jpg

 

http://image2.frappr.com/pix2/i/20060620/3/c/e/3ce29976b610969797339dca73bf76ad1_large.jpg

 

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20060318/8/e/6/8e6ed1ac4bbaaf5e8c644df2401b89420_large.jpg

 

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20060317/0/e/d/0ed3a9d5c4e5de003d7421c331e1e8870_large.jpg

 

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/Omni10.html

 

"The smallest of the Omni family is the 16"x20"x26" Omni 10. It's a perfect match for the latest generation of Eminence Neodymium magnet drivers. Load it with a pair of Basslite S2010 woofers and you'll have a 300 watt powerhouse that weighs in at only 40 pounds. Need more power? A pair of Deltalite II 2510 woofers takes you up to a whopping 500 watts, while the cabinet still comes in at less than 50 pounds. But despite its small size and weight the O10 is no slouch in the response department. This cab has bass power that you usually need two twelves to achieve. Take a look at this 1m/1W SPL chart:

 

http://71.18.23.29/images/SPL/O10.gif

 

If you've already got a pair of tens and can't afford to trade up to a bigger rig just pop those tens into an Omni 10. With the average 5dB advantage it has over commercial cabs it will be like having triple the watts.

 

Like the O12 and O15, the O10 is an easy build, even if you don't own a shop full of power tools. All you need is a circular saw. An electric drill would be nice, but if you haven't got one don't worry, this puppy will go together with a hammer and nails.

 

Like the DRs, multiple O10s can be vertically arrayed, but for even wider dispersion they also can be cross-fired. Unlike the DRs, you can build a half-sized O10, loaded with a single ten. That brings the size down to 13x16x20 inches, and the weight to 20 pounds. And the build cost? You can do a full sized O10 loaded with a pair of MCM 55-1740 woofers for about $150, complete."

 

Alex

[ATM]

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

Used Peavey = cheap and loud

Peavey 215 Cab with 200+ head.

 

ATM

 

PS, it's heavy as all &$#@ too.

[soretro80s]

for a cab..Honsetly. I would go for this http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--HTKVX215

 

I used one of these for a LONG time. Its cheap, its powerful, its LOUD as all hell!..and you wont find anything better or cheaper (other than Omni's which IMO look like crap, no offense)but seriously..if you are looking for a good cheap workhorse..thats the cab for you. yet, i wouldnt buy a hartke head. ive had very bad experiences with them.

 

as for a head. i would get http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--ASDMAG300H

 

you will be knocking walls down with that. if you dont like ashdown..check out a beringer.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by soretro80s:

if you dont like ashdown..check out a beringer.

See this thread for a Behringer 410 that I'll bet you could pick up real cheap (2nd post):

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/5/t/015520.html

 

 

I honestly can't speak about Behringer bass heads...I know there are a couple folks here who have one and seem to like it. I tried a couple of their combo's, and they were crap, IMNSHO. I had a Behringer EP-2500 power amp for a few days...it sounded pretty good, but was defective in bridged-mono mode out-of-the-box, so I sent it back. I have one piece of Behringer gear that I think is good, and that's the 16-channel 1RU line mixer...it's quiet, transparent, and does what it should with no issues. That little rack mixer however is the extent of my positive experience with Behringer gear. However, YMMV.

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

Hey Alex...how well do you think those BF horn cabs might work as PA cabs? There's a pretty large hump at around 250 Hz, which wouldn't be at all a bad hump to have for bass guitar...I'm thinking they might sound quite boxy for PA-type applications though...thoughts? The size, weight, sensitivity, and cost of those BF cabs certainly make them appealing.

 

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Hey Alex...how well do you think those BF horn cabs might work as PA cabs? There's a pretty large hump at around 250 Hz, which wouldn't be at all a bad hump to have for bass guitar...I'm thinking they might sound quite boxy for PA-type applications though...thoughts? The size, weight, sensitivity, and cost of those BF cabs certainly make them appealing.

That's not a large hump at all! From 100Hz-20kHz it's +/-3dB which is as flat as an Acme and better than any other bass cab or cheap PA. It would be really interesting to see how typical bass cabs chart - I suspect they would look somewhat Himalayan...

 

For small PA use a pair of Omni 10.5 cabs would be nice. For a middling PA, a pair of Omni 12 or 15 cabs. And for a big PA a combination of Omni 10 or DR250 tops and Tuba (for recorded sound) or Titan (for live sound) subwoofers. Bi-amp the top plus subs PA and use a Driverack or similar to auto-EQ them. Loud, deep, flat and cheap. What more could you want?

 

Alex

[saxofunk]

Originally posted by jmcd:

my peavy is an older version so it has no line out ... but it does have the other controlls but no line out... and plus the speaker is going out... once in a while it will just quit... then ill have to wiggle stuff to make the speaker work again.. its probabaly a loose wire somewhere

Well. Shucks! There goes the easy fix. If you can get the amp back up to 100%, then maybe use a DI to go to the PA. If you're commited to getting new gear, get some. These guys have good ideas.

[mcbn]

Well, if you are in the Houston area, I'm selling some gear. Also, if you area anywhere in between Houston, TX and Chicago, IL I'm taking a road trip in the next few days and I'm willing to meet you somewhere.

 

I'm willing to ship the Peavey Firebass head. The Firebass and SansAmp Bass Driver DI makes a killer rock rig, whether it be classic, prog, pop or metal.

 

I can make the price right for you, PM me if you are interested.

[The Bear Jew]

Hey, if yer lookin for cheap and loud, I'm right here...

 

OH.. amps. Gotcha.

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by CMDN:

Hey, if yer lookin for cheap and loud, I'm right here...

 

OH.. amps. Gotcha.

[saxofunk]

Originally posted by jmcd:

oh btw I'm from southern minnesota, so its probably not that close to NY, although it could be farther I suppose

Northern occupied Iowa.

 

I've travelled that area some, and depending on exactly where you're at it probably isn't worth the gas money to get to the Cities or Des Moines where there are some large-ish stores.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by NUTT:

Well, if you are in the Houston area, I'm selling some gear. Also, if you area anywhere in between Houston, TX and Chicago, IL I'm taking a road trip in the next few days and I'm willing to meet you somewhere.

 

I'm willing to ship the Peavey Firebass head. The Firebass and SansAmp Bass Driver DI makes a killer rock rig, whether it be classic, prog, pop or metal.

 

I can make the price right for you, PM me if you are interested.

I can't speak for the firebass head because I've never used one, but the Peavey 410 and Sansamp rocks...you should consider this deal!

 

Dave

[alexclaber]

I should just point out that the TKO 115 is a remarkably loud amp and will cope just fine with most drummers. In my experience nothing short of a nuclear holocaust will stop a Peavey working - it sounds like you've simply got a loose connection. Fix that, keep using the Peavey and upgrade when you have both more funds available and more idea of what you want.

 

Alex

[DONUT]

Originally posted by Paul K:

Used Peavey Combo 300. Loud and cheap, but heavy. Not as heavy as a B3 or a Fender Rhodes, but heavy. Power to push an external speaker. Plenty of ins-and-outs to make it flexible.

+1. Great amp. The ones with the "Tambre" control.