If it was low B 4...(Acme review vs. Berg HT-322)

[Gruuve]

...it's going to be even lower now. You know what it is, and it's slightly used and at a pretty good price vs. new. I'll post a review as soon as I get my hot little hands on it.

 

If it's suits my needs and tastes as good as I'm expecting based on everything I've read and all the discussions we've had about them here, then I'll probably have a very slightly used Bergantino HT-322 for sale within a week or two.

 

Dave

[rumpelstiltskin.]

sweet. i love bergantino. the stuff he puts his name on makes so much more sense to me sonically than the stuff he does for other companies.

 

robb.

[wraub]

Groovy.

Definitely post a review, and then let us know which one's up for grabs.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[tnb]

[_Sweet Willie_]

You know what would totally kick a$$?

 

No?!

 

I'll tell ya' -- three HT-322s side by side. There would be a whole lotta rawk there. Yup, too much rawk to measure. Having a pair next to each other would be muy solid, but a third?! Yeah, boy, that would be tas-tee!

 

Low B4? A whole lotta bottom there. But I think building up an arsenal of HT322s is where it's at.

 

Peace.

--SW

[Gruuve]

Three HT-322's? I don't think so. One of those Berg's is plenty of Rawk.

[Tom Capasso]

For you, maybe.

 

But I think 3 of those babies is what you should getz.

 

Tom

[Gruuve]

Heh...sounds like there's an ample market assuming I do decide to sell my HT-322, eh?

 

Dave

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Tom Capasso:

But I think 3 of those babies is what you should getz.

[Gruuve]

My slightly used Acme LowB4 came today, but all is not as lovely as I had anticipated. I think the shipper must have dropped it from a 10-story building. Three of the black plastic corner pieces were broken and in the box, the black metal rail on the top back was bent, etc. Other than the obvious shipper damage, the condition looked as good as new. The seller was obviously very conscientious...luckily it was very well packed, or it would probably have been more than minor damage.

 

Got it upstairs and hooked up it...yuck. No mids nor highs...with the highs on my head cranked, I can get some mid and high distortion but that's it. (The lows certainly are supple though!) I can't see a driver and tweeter being damaged by rough handling of the cab...I'm thinking the 12V light bulb that acts as a fuse has been broken by the shipping gorillas.

 

QUESTION: Where is that blasted bulb located? The manual doesn't say, and I don't see it right off.

 

Thx,

Dave

[BenHack]

Dave

 

I've got an Acme LowB2 and to get to the bulb you have to take off the grill and remove the top driver. The bulb is anchored just behind it. Not the most convienient location I've gotta say but these cabs do sound great. Hope this helps, CYA

 

Ben

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Three of the black plastic corner pieces were broken and in the box, the black metal rail on the top back was bent, etc.

Ouch! That was a big hit!

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

QUESTION: Where is that blasted bulb located? The manual doesn't say, and I don't see it right off.

The bulb is mounted on the crossover, which is attached to the jack plate. You definitely have to take the grill off and a woofer out, probably one of the top ones. The bulb is a standard car turn signal bulb.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Ah...cool. If the bulb is attached to the crossover which is attached to the jack plate, wouldn't it be easier to just take the jack plate off the back, or is there some reason this won't work?

 

Thx guys!

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Ah...cool. If the bulb is attached to the crossover which is attached to the jack plate, wouldn't it be easier to just take the jack plate off the back, or is there some reason this won't work?

It would if you could but you can't!

 

It may seem mad but remember that Andy has created an incredibly stiff non-resonant structure that is still really rather light, and part of that is through minimising the holes that are cut in the panels.

 

You shouldn't find the bulb ever blowing again, unless you push your amp into clipping or run really really vicious trebly distortion through it. Armed with an electric screwdriver it's a 5 minute job, anyway.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Got it! (I see what you mean Alex...you can't take the jack plate off from the back.) It was indeed the bulb. In fact, the bulb was actually shattered, and a real bear to get out of the socket. NOW this cab sounds like what I expected!

 

I'll do some A/B'ing between this and the Berg HT-322 probably tommorrow. Right off, I'd have to say the difference certainly is NOT night-and-day by any means (neither in terms of sound nor outright volume). The Berg sounds more raw (not a bad "raw"...it's actually a good "raw"), maybe a little louder in the mids, while the Acme sounds more refined and...well...uh...flat!

 

I can tell that my SWR SM-900 doesn't have enough juice for my tastes. (That was true with the Berg as well though.) Time to go the preamp + power amp route...

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

OK, I think I can post a decent A/B review now. The Berg HT-322 is definitely a bit louder than the Acme LowB4 at exactly the same settings. However, that difference in volume is mainly in the mids region. The Acme sounds more accurate (based on what I hear out of a good studio monitoring system and out of a good full-range PA) than the Berg, and I'm noticing that it also seems to be a bit more articulate. I'd imagine that the articulate-ness has to do with Andy's crossover design and that it's a 3-way cab rather than a 2-way cab. I don't think the Acme's would cut through as well as the Berg without EQ'ing in some mids (which isn't a big deal especially since mids don't consume much power, but this just needs to be noted). I've been running both off of an older SWR SM-900 (800 watts into 4 ohms bridged mono), and although it's plenty loud with either, there isn't a whole lot of amp headroom available, so I'd say either cab would benefit substantially from a more powerful amp.

 

Both are great cabs...there's no doubt about it. The Berg in particular definitely brings "Da Rawk". But, I think the Acme is going to fit my needs better nowadays. I keep finding myself needing something that's accurate and sounds just like a studio monitor/sub system and a full-range PA (meaning high/mid/sub with sufficient amps running them), and I believe the Acme will deliver that exceptionally well.

 

Another happy Acme customer!

 

Dave

[JBFLA]

Hey Dave:

 

Nothing against the Berg (and I haven't even had the opportunity to try one) but my two LowB-2's really have satisfied my needs. I use one, sometimes both, with a GK 800RB or a Demeter/QSC rack, depending on the gig.

 

They've gotten me more gigs in the last 2 years than the previous 4 years.

 

Sound is in the fingers? Yeah, to a point.

If your gear can't 'translate' that sound, you're still sucking air.

 

Confidence in your gear is prime. Doesn't matter if it's "Brand A" or "Brand Z". What matters, is if it inspires you.

 

Different strokes...

 

Jim

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Another happy Acme customer!

Excellent.

 

One useful tip - try to get your ears within about 30 degrees off-axis of the mid/tweeter. This may require tilting the cab back on small stages but it's worth it - the extra clarity is quite remarkable (and you'll be surprised at quite how much midrange most basses produce).

 

I think the users that don't get on with Acmes usually suffer because the midrange is firing straight past their legs, so all their ears hear is bottom, whilst with most other bass cabs there is a big midrange hump so even way off-axis there is still enough midrange to hear yourself.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Thanks Alex...I'll give that a try. I never thought I'd find myself cutting lows and/or boosting mids, but look at me now.

 

I just picked up a 2400 watt power amp at a great price (I won't say what brand because you guys will probably throw stones at me.) That ought to do the trick. I'm eyeballing an SWR Grand Prix as well...it's time to retire my SWR SM-900 I think. I've gotten about 15 years of reliable work-horse service out of it and only had one repair the entire time (a simple power supply rectifier diode)...this cab needs more juice than the SM-900 can push cleanly IMO. Plus, if I ever decided to add a LowB2, then this new power amp should still have plenty of juice to run both it and the current LowB4. I'll try running the new amp off the effect send output on the SM-900...that should be almost exactly the same sound to expect with the Grand Prix, right?

 

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I never thought I'd find myself cutting lows and/or boosting mids, but look at me now.

I'm now finding myself bypassing my onboard preamp, so using either reverse-P neck, J bridge, or both (3-way switch), EMG pickups on 18V, straight into the GP, DI pre EQ to PA or multi-track, and a bit of bass cut on the GP's EQ depending on the room/position.

 

It's weird because I used to keep the GP's EQ flat bar Aural Enhancer at 10 o'clock, and then used the Warwick's MEC bass boost in varying degrees, and then the subsequent OBP-3's bass boost in lesser degrees (because it's way more potent). And the strangest thing is that I swear I have a fatter sound now than ever before!

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I just picked up a 2400 watt power amp at a great price (I won't say what brand because you guys will probably throw stones at me.)

Oh Dave... I'm going to throw large pointy rocks at you, anyway! So many lovely amps out there and you had to do that...

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I'm eyeballing an SWR Grand Prix as well...it's time to retire my SWR SM-900 I think... ...I'll try running the new amp off the effect send output on the SM-900...that should be almost exactly the same sound to expect with the Grand Prix, right?

I think the SM-900 preamp and Grand Prix are very similar in sound so that should do the trick. Have a hunt for NOS 5751 tubes whilst you're at it - they sound really nice in the GP, cost very little, and being military spec tend to be very rugged.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Fatter sound with lows cut? I'm actually starting to believe that nowadays. Experiences I've gained with recording and trying to get a good mix are really counter-intuitive to beliefs I held even a couple years ago. Those recent worship tunes I posted...you wouldn't believe how much lows I cut out of the signal and how much mids I boosted (at the mix down stage). If you listen to the bass guitar solo'd, it sounds like tinny crap...listen to it in the mix and oh my gosh...it sounds big, fat, and full with plenty of thump. There's definitely some psycho-acoustic masking going on there...this is still just amazing to me when I think about it.

 

That said, I still use more lows in my signal live than I do for recording, but learning some of these lessons has been a really good thing. It seems to me that if I cut as much lows live as I do for recording, the bass just gets lost. Flat lows or a little bump around 150-200 Hz seems to work really nicely given my basses and the way I play. I do sometimes boost the mids (or very occasionally, highs) live for a particular song if it more mid-rangey tone just works for the song.

 

Dave

[Big Daddy from Motown]

Of course we would believe that you cut the lows and boosted the mids, we have ears. My ears at least thought your tone was wretched. However I thought the parts were well played at just this side of being too busy.

[wraub]

Originally posted by C. Alexander Claber:

I think the SM-900 preamp and Grand Prix are very similar in sound so that should do the trick. Have a hunt for NOS 5751 tubes whilst you're at it - they sound really nice in the GP, cost very little, and being military spec tend to be very rugged.

 

Alex

+1

 

I did just this, at Alex's suggestion, and it really adds a lot. Lowers the gain, but adds warmer, rounder, fuller loveliness.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

Of course we would believe that you cut the lows and boosted the mids, we have ears. My ears at least thought your tone was wretched. However I thought the parts were well played at just this side of being too busy.

Wow, Big Daddy...you can hear me playing all the way to Detroit? Maybe I don't need that bigger power amp then. (I'm thinking this post must have landed on the wrong thread! )

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

The 2400watt power amp came today. So THAT'S what headroom is all about. And, THAT'S what 31Hz really sounds/feels like. NOW I truly understand why you guys talk about cutting the lows even when playing live. I guess I've never heard loud but truly accurate lows come out of my rig without being limited/compressed/otherwise made less-than-completely accurate. Wow!

 

It doesn't seem to matter whether I run this through the Acme LowB4 or through the Berg HT-322, it still literally shakes the walls. I heard stuff falling off the walls as I was playing (I'm not kidding). It sounds so clean and clear...mind boggling. Now every mistake I make will be incredibly clear! I'm actually wondering if 2400watts into a LowB4 is overkill. (Let's see...Alex you run 1000watts or so into a Low B2, right?) I suppose it's reasonable to just keep the power amp turned down and call the extra "headroom" right?

 

I'm still reeling from hearing this the first time. I'm running the power amp off the effect send on my SM-900 head...I'm going to step up the search for an SWR Grand Prix!

 

Dave

[Rocky McDougall]

Dave, be carefull, remember what happened to the walls of Jerico.

Rocky

[bikertrash]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I'm actually wondering if 2400watts into a LowB4 is overkill.

I've been running a PLX 2404 into a B4 for a couple years now. It's just about right.

[Gruuve]

OK, doing some experimenting here. I was getting quite frustrated with this EP-2500 power amp...it seemed to clip really REALLY easily. On a observational guess, I made an assumption the manual had the built-in high-pass filter off/on markings backward, and voila. Apparently, my hands produce quite a bit of sub-30Hz signal, particularly with slap and muting. Needless to say, those sub-30Hz signals eat up amplifier power in gobs. (Remember that...sub-30Hz filter = very VERY good thing.) Now it doesn't artificially clip, and I can get the input level quite high.

 

I've also done some comparisons between bridged mode (2400 watts into 4 ohms, both the Acme and the Berg) and stereo/parallel mode (750 watts into 4 ohms, also tried running both cabs this way). There isn't a tremendous difference in output between 750 watts versus 2400 watts, as you can probably guess. I haven't tried setting the power amp's high pass filter to 50Hz rather than 30Hz...that might be interesting to hear the difference and see how much further I can push the level without clipping with everything below 50Hz rolled off. I doubt I'd actually use it that way, but might be an interesting experiment.

 

One of my original thoughts was to possibly add a LowB2 at some point. Now, I'm thinking through whether I'd get better use out of running the B4 off 2400 watts with tons of headroom, or running a B4 + B2 off 750 watts or per side. I'm considering whether, in practice, an additional 2 woofers + 1 mid + 1 tweeter at a lower power would give me a similar result as running the one B4 off a higher power. A B4 and B2 would certainly make for a flexible rig...hmmm.

 

One thing's for sure...running both the B4 and the HT-322 off the power amp at 750 watts each certainly rocks (I do have to turn the level down on the Berg's side to "hear" both cabs though...it's sensitivity in the mids is considerably greater than the Acme).

 

Maybe I'm kinda old school with this, but there's just something awefully nice about having lots of juice and lots of speakers pushing air with a bass guitar.

 

The Behringer EP-2500 power amp does have one very annoying feature that I should mention for future reference of anyone else considering one. When you clip the input even momentarily, the signal shuts off for a few 10th's of a second, even with the clip limiter disabled. I'd imagine that this is technically a good feature, but it sure is annoying sound-wise. (By comparison, if you momentarily clip the power amp in the SWR SM-900 head, the clip LED just blinks once and it keeps on truckin'.)

 

Dave

[Rocky McDougall]

Your speakers will not have enough power untill they start moving backwards on the floor.

Rocky

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by Rocky3840:

Your speakers will not have enough power untill they start moving backwards on the floor.

Rocky

ROTF. "Look honey, I rearranged the furniture using only telekinetic subsonic frequencies."

 

Dave