8 track recorder

[thanny XIII]

Hi. I have $150. I'm spending 50 on a guitar. Is there an 8 track recording device for that? Is digital better or analog. Is and eight track neccisary or would a four track work. this is for recording my band and for recording song demos by myself.

[getz out]

So, basic math skills are back in effect.

 

So, you have $150.

 

You are spending $50 on a guitar.

 

That leaves you with $100.

 

A couple of questions:

 

Do you have a computer?

 

If so, what kind of computer is it? Give some specifications.

 

What other type of musical equipment do you have? Microphones? Mixers? DI boxes? Microphone stands? Mic cables?

[thanny XIII]

2 mics 2 cables crappy ibm. 1 mic stand. And it would be good if it were portable.

[getz out]

Save your $100. You could spend it just on microphone stands.

[A Head with Wings]

"And it would be good if it were portable."

 

For that kind of money you won't find anything that is not portable.

[thanny XIII]

Oh getz I lied I have two mic stands I forgot about my old one. I also have a 80 watt pa thing.And would a 4 track sound good enough for radio. Please spare me all sarcasm im very new to recording.

[getz out]

What 80-watt PA thing do you have?

 

What radio are you planning on playing?

 

$100 does not go so far for anything music related...

[thanny XIII]

The local rock station plays local bands and apparently all the demos we've given they couldn't play because they wern't clea enough. and it is a squier 4.

[The Bear Jew]

Thanny, my man...

You want to do some recording, right?

 

OK.

 

On the plus side... I can tell you that a lot of great recordings found on the radio were done on four-track, analog machines, but that's more of a testament to the engineers using them and the talented performers playing the music than the technology they used to capture the performances.

 

You can definitely demo songs on a four-track, and I'd say you could get a half-decent recording of your band with one, too.

 

On the minus side... Digital four-track recording devices generally cost more than $100... sorry, dude. Needless to say, eight-track devices cost even more.

 

You might be able to find a fairly inexpensive four-track, cassette recorder for sale on craigslist for around $100. Digital recorders might cost more...

 

Or you might like this one:

tascam porta-studio

 

It'll probably do what you need it to do... Or close enough. And for the right price.

[getz out]

What microphones?

[thanny XIII]

nady starpowers or something

[thanny XIII]

Cmdn that is prolly wht i will do. I have audacity on my computer. so if i need more trcks i can just bounce them in real time to the computer edit them up a bit maybe. im not uber hi fi I just want a good clean recording of my band for the local radio.

[getz out]

What IBM do you have? What type of sound card?

 

Your best bet might be to get an audio interface that you can record directly to computer.

 

Get the best stereo mix using your two microphones in a decent sounding room, and record the best instrumental version of the song you can. After that, overdub the vocals. You might be able to find a used USB interface with mic preamps for $100 on craigslist or eBay. Or, you could use the microphone preamps in your Squier PA to drive a cheaper USB interface:

 

http://media.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/fit,325by400/quality,85/Transit4-6298816541cb2aaddad84cdc3f67a016.jpg

 

$80. Comes with Ableton Live Lite, so you can get going quickly.

 

Does your PA have a stereo line out? Either 1/4" jacks or RCA jacks or a stereo 1/8" jack?

[thanny XIII]

Yeah it does. but the sound card is pretty weak and the computer is located in a room where my parents hate letting me set up drum kits. Would the sound quality be that much better?

[getz out]

Is the computer completely immobile? Like locked down or anything? Is there a reason you cannot move it to record drums?

[thanny XIII]

it is connected to a printer and a scanner and it's not really mine.....perhaps if I borrowed the laptop. I'll ask if I can use that and get back to you.

[Gruuve]

Thanny...if you only have $100 to spend, you *might* be able to snag a previous generation stand-alone digital multitrack all-one-one machine for that money, but I doubt it. (Ya never know until you try, so give it a look.) I'd say the best choice for you will be to snag a used cassette-based 8-track porta-studio type deal from Ebay...that you could probably get for $100, although you might have to look for awhile. Now, if you can save up $200-300, you can snag a decent used digital 8-track Fostex, Zoom, Tascam...something like that with effects built in, ability to record more than 2 simultaneous tracks, etc.

 

Make sure you're clear on how many tracks you need to record simultaneously. Most stuff will do 2 tracks simultaneously...the price goes up and choices get smaller for 4 and 8 simultaneous.

 

HTH,

Dave

[Eric VB]

Why not one of these babies?

http://media.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/fit,325by400/quality,85/PS-04_Front-5904243aeed7781873e1ed8e8175dd5d.jpg

only $200 brand new (a couple on eBay for less). Very portable. Use the built-in bass and drum machines and you only have to record your guitarist and lead singer.

[getz out]

Why not one of these babies?

Sampling frequency = 31.25 kHz

[bruiser_dup2]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Why not one of these babies?

http://media.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/fit,325by400/quality,85/PS-04_Front-5904243aeed7781873e1ed8e8175dd5d.jpg

only $200 brand new (a couple on eBay for less). Very portable. Use the built-in bass and drum machines and you only have to record your guitarist and lead singer.

But that's $50 more than he has, and he still needs another 50 to buy the guitar. . .

 

thanny XIII, here's my advice. Spend the entire $150 on the guitar, and spend a few months practicing together and saving your money for recording gear, before you try to get on the radio. I'm thinking $150 isn't going to do it all for you right now.

 

Ed

[Gruuve]

There's a quite a few to choose from on Ebay. Some of these might go for <$100...put 'em on your watch list...

 

http://search.ebay.com/8-track_Musical-Instruments_W0QQcatrefZC6QQfromZR4QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQsacatZ619QQsbrsrtZd

 

A digital unit that immediately comes to mind is the Yamaha MD-8. It uses MD-Data disks (so it does some compression on the audio), no built in effects (although it has two effect send/returns IIRC...you can hook up external effects), but it does record in digital, sounds really good, has a very full-function built-in analog mixer section, and will record up to 8-tracks simultaneously. I sold one of these a few years ago for about $400, but I'll bet the used price has dropped considerating the proliferation of digital recording gear nowadays...you could probably get one $200-300.

 

Thanny, I know where you're coming from on this...you have to start somewhere. As a beginner at recording, it will be difficult to tell the difference in sound between a $200 recording setup and a $2000 recording setup. I got started with a used Fostex R8 reel-to-reel 8-track and a Fostex 16-channel recording console. They were old and cheap, but they got the job done. In fact, the demo of my old band Disparity of Cult which I posted a few days ago was completely recorded on that gear.

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Why not one of these babies?

http://media.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/fit,325by400/quality,85/PS-04_Front-5904243aeed7781873e1ed8e8175dd5d.jpg

only $200 brand new (a couple on eBay for less). Very portable. Use the built-in bass and drum machines and you only have to record your guitarist and lead singer.

These do have a sub-standard sampling rate as Getz noted (and you can indeed hear the difference between 33K and 44.1K if you listen closely)...BUT...if you just need a digital sketchpad for song ideas that you're doing yourself, this would be great. Target a used price of $100-125.

 

Very similar to this guy is the now discontinued Tascam PocketStudio 5. It does have a 44.1K sampling rate, but it does MP3-style compression on the audio as it's stored. I've never heard one, but I'd imagine it sounds just a bit better than the Zoom pocket studio. (The effects aren't particularly good though.) Also, the Tascam has a synth built-in with a plethora of voices rather than just drums and bass. You "program" the synth by uploading a midi file via it's USB port...I don't think there's any way to do it on the gadget itself. If I needed a song sketchpad, this would definitely be a top contender.

 

Dave

[getz out]

You do not need to listen closely to hear the difference between 32 kHz and 44.1 kHz. It is rather obvious.

[Rocky McDougall]

Here is a Tascam 4 track on ebay with a lot of accessories for $90.00

Rocky

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/TASCAM-Porta02-MkII-Ministudio-4-track-recorder-extras_W0QQitemZ7413810651QQcategoryZ41480QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[thanny XIII]

Rocky you are my hero. I'm buying the guitar for 50 from a freind and my band has been playing for 1 year and been on the radio once (at 1 o clock in the morning) but this is exactly what I'm looking for. I want something that I can take to band practice and tlo the park as I'm often inspired there. Can't take the laptop to band practice so this appears to be the best option. thank you all for your help and suggestions.

[...]

Originally posted by getz76:

You do not need to listen closely to hear the difference between 32 kHz and 44.1 kHz. It is rather obvious.

Like a baseball bat to the face obvious. If you have to listen closely to hear the difference between 32kHz and 44.1kHz you should probably get your ears checked.

 

Thanny, you need to just save your money, spend some time practicing with your band (and in the woodshed), and look into getting better recordings at a later date. To be brutally honest, no recording equipment is going to make you guys sound like amazing musicians. A lot of practice is what makes you sound good.

[getz out]

Those Tascam cassette-based PortaStudios are great for laying down scratch ideas on a budget, but I would not release anything recording on one. Realistically, it is a song-writing and analysis tool, not a true production tool.

 

I have this:

 

http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/product_pics/big/microtrack_big.jpg

 

Great for stereo recordings at 24 bit/96 kHz on CF cards. The user interface is a bit clumsy, but it does have some nice features, including mic preamps with phantom power so you can use real microphones instead of the included stereo mic. It also isn't materially bigger than an older iPod.

 

Most places sell it for $399, though.

[Fred TBP]

A better way to do this would be to work backwards from your real goals, instead of being "cash driven" which is how most people in America today continue to make stupid decisions. (e.g., SUVs with low gas mileage that have lower-than-stated resale values and are not as maneuvarable in rush-hour situations - but they're bigger, hold the kids and the groceries, and they can get your softball team to the park in one trip)

 

-goal: recording your song demos

-objective: is 4 track enough?

-questions: how many instruments can I play at once? how much signal bouncing do I need to do? will I be sending them off as demos or plan to market them for sale? do I really care if there's a little hiss on them?

 

-goal: recording your band

-objective: is 4 track enough?

-insight: virtually every recording made up to the mid-1950s (except for some lab experiments) was done on a monaural (1-channel machine). IIRC, Jimi Hendrix was among the first to benefit with 8-track recording in the making of the "Sgt. Pepper" album in the mid-60s. I don't precisely recall when 8-tracks were available for regular commercial work (in truth Les Paul built two demo models for Ampex electronics in the 50s which were leased to recording studios at a hefty price tag)

-questions: how many instruments? what's the recording room like? can I isolate instruments so I don't get bleed-through? can I record the rhythm tracks as a live session? how tight is the music? do I have to worry about copyrights and arrangement credits? can someone else do the recording or do I have to record and play at the same time? who's going to listen to the final product?

 

Work backwards from your goals and questions to what you'll need (not what you want) and that'll tell you a ballpark figure on what you need to spend. Frankly, I think $100 will probably get you a used cassette-based 4-8 track or an entry-level mp3 digital recorder.

 

A question that CAN be answered directly is "is digital better than analog?" Short answer is yes, it makes the process of creating CDs (which will require digital signals anyway) simpler. Long answer is that for certain frequencies, analog "sounds" better. In cost-analysis, expect to spend 150-200% to make analog recordings in a pro studio over digital recordings, based on some rough numbers I obtained a few months ago from some Northern NJ studios. This is the easiest way I can phrase this without getting into pages and pages of debate (some of them worth searching for and reading on this Forum) on the pros and cons of analog vs. digital.

 

If this whole thing confuses you and you just want to know how to spend your extra $100, I concur with getz72: put it away. Something else will come up that'll make you glad you didn't spend this on a recorder.

[thanny XIII]

4 instruments. drums, bass, vox, guitar. The purpose is likely just as demos but if it sounds good enough, sale. I have a 4 channel mixer. I plan on recording like this. Micked amp and direct signal for bass (on one track this is possible with the mixer) Drums two overhead mics plus a kick mic. Guitar miced amp, vocals mic. I can do this all onto the 4 track. I would then in real time, record that onto audacity. I would clean up hiss there and then export as an mp3. This is now my plan I have done similar with the mixer and a minidsc and it is our best recording.I think it would be even better with a four track. I am likely going to get the one rocky found tonight.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by getz76:

I have this: [...] Most places sell it for $399, though.

Yeah, I knew M-Audio made a better palm recorder than Zoom, but the price was too far from Thanny's budget. I did make the mistake of not checking the PS04's specs. Thanks for catching that.

 

Not having actually used one, I don't know how it (PS04) compares to a PortaStudio, though, in terms of sound. Based on the posts in this thread I'm guessing neither is a good long-term solution to the problem at hand.

 

The only 4-track tape recorder I ever recorded on (at a studio -- don't know what it was) was disappointing in terms of sound quality. It may have been the engineer, but the cassette punched from the reel master was no where near a commercial cassette. (True, the band I was in would have benefitted greatly from 8 tracks -- darn drums! -- but as has already been said, a lot of famous recordings were done using similar equipment.)

 

Comparing the later 8-track digital recordings to our 4-track tape recordings is like comparing the 4-tracks to the earlier boombox recordings. Miles apart.

 

I think Thanny realizes that his budget is unrealistic, but I give him credit for setting a goal and going for it regardless. I mean, we haven't even touched on why purchasing a $50 guitar might be detrimental -- how does that help his band be able to make radio-quality recordings? -- and instead would marginally help him by putting that money towards better recording gear.

 

I've heard some young bands that I wasn't completely impressed with musically, but hats off to them for doing shows and getting recorded. It's almost like the age-old "why do jerks always get the women?" thing. Because they're the ones that aren't afraid to ask every single woman in the joint! Bad or good, bands that are out there hustling are going to go somewhere. Bands that sit in the basement until they are "ready" never see the light of day.

 

I think Thanny should push forward and just get something that will do the job -- produce a radio-quality recording -- and take it from there. I've seen working bands use some real crap equipment for live shows.

 

So, although it's going to be really hard to make it work with only one Ben Franklin, I think it's more important that his band go for it than try to play it safe. If they can sell plasma or mow a few lawns or even ask Uncle Ernie for a loan in the next couple of weeks, then maybe wait for that. Otherwise, seize the moment.

 

I have no idea what studio rates are in UT, but I'd think an even better short-term solution would be to drop the C-note at a studio and get one song done well. Just be up front with the studio that that's your budget and you can't go over at all, and see what they can do for you. Sure, you only get one song for your money, but you don't have to learn how to be a studio engineer either, so you save yourself a lot of time and trouble. When do you want that radio-ready recording? Next week or next year?

 

As has been pointed out, there's more to it than simply setting up any two mics you have lying around and getting that "stereo" signal into a computer. If you're lucky or skilled, you end up with something usable. Otherwise you spend a lot of time becoming skilled, only to realize that your crap equipment is holding you back.

 

Ok, I've just doubled-back on myself. I'll let someone in a better state of mind sort through my ramblings.

 

(1) Will a $90 PortaStudio produce radio-quality recordings with the equipment listed? Will some of that equipment need to be upgraded?

 

(2) Is it feasible to get one song done in a studio for $100? (We're not talking NYC/LA here.)

 

(3) Assuming both (1) and (2) are viable options, which is a better short-term goal? Is it a better strategy to shop one decent studio recording now (including radio play), hoping that the revenue from the gigs it leads to will finance decent home recording equipment, or to go without anything to shop around until someone in the band figures out how to make a suitable recording on marginal equipment?