PC-based recording anyone?

[Gruuve]

Ya know, I've always been a fan of the stand-alone digital recorders. Mainly, I've always thought that PC-based recording just wasn't stable enough. I want to turn it on, push a few buttons, and record music...not spend 50% of my time configuring/reconfiguring/troubleshooting. Probably 10 years ago, I went the stand-alone DR route while a friend went the PC-recording route. He gave up out of frustration probably 1.5 years later.

 

I think I'm kind of outgrowing my Zoom MRS-1608 stand-alone DR. It's been great (especially for the price), but I could really learn to love more tracks, more effects, more, more, more! I'm considering the new Korg D3200, a used Korg D32XD, perhaps a used Akai DPS-24, or Roland VS-2480. Something along those lines.

 

Then I happen to get a bundled copy of Steinberg Cubase LE, and have been poking around in it out of curiosity. Up to 48 audio tracks, plus midi tracks, up to 4 send effects, two final master effects, insert effects limited only by PC horsepower...hmmm. (And that's just the Limited Edition version!) Perhaps I should give PC-recording another look?

 

I've briefly looked at USB, firewire, and PCI-based audio interfaces. From what I have seen by a brief scan, looks like PCI would be the best way to go (10-input interface for $299...seems reasonable), firewire would be 2nd choice, USB would be last choice. I would defintely want the ability to record at least 8 tracks simultaneously.

 

What's required to get a good multi-output monitoring signal out? Headphone jack on the audio interface for monitoring while tracking...what's the best way to hook-up near-field monitors + sub-woofer for monitoring during mix/mastering?

 

A control surface for mixing is another thought. Mixing with a mouse just seems like it would be really tedious to me. I'd figure maybe a couple hundred or so for that.

 

This would require a new PC of course...would probably dedicate it only to recording...disable internet access but make it accessible from my home LAN.

 

I'm just curious if anyone else has looked at this option versus a stand-alone digital recorder lately? Using, say, the Korg D3200 as my basis ($1500 new), can I put together a PC-based solution that's the same price but with greater capabilities? I don't know the answer yet, but it sure seems like it's work considering.

 

Dave

[zeronyne]

You're going to need to spend a bit more.

 

Don't skimp on the audio interface. If you need 8 simultaneous inputs, you will be narrowing your choices quite a bit. M-Audio makes a nice set of interfaces in every price range, but if you want really high quality recordings with rock-solid performance for PC try Metric Halo...but they are really pricey.

 

Your best bet for monitoring is still a small mixer. If you're also using it to mixdown, Mackie 1202vlz or something similarly spec'ed (dead quiet, completely transparent) is essential. Even if you mix ITB (in the box), a mixer will come in very handy. There are alternatives to doing this, but you go from $150-300 and jump right into the $1000.00+ category.

 

Mixing with a mouse is very tedious if you mix like you would at a board. But if you can do a paradigm shift and draw in your volume envelopes, it's very liberating. I've owned over 12 different control surfaces ranging from $100 to over $2000, and I now use the mouse almost exclusively. If I want to ride a fader once in a while, any keyboard with a mod wheel or slider will do.

 

I've been carefully monitoring the standalone market for 10 years, but I've always used a computer for the bulk of my recording. But then again, I'm a keyboard player...half my instruments are in software to begin with. There are some compelling reasons to go standalone: convenience, compatibility, simplicity. But for sheer power and flexibility, you will never beat a computer DAW.

 

But for $1500 all-inclusive, the D3200 has a lot going for it.

[BenLoy]

ProTools LE is pretty much the industry standard for home PC or Mac-based studios these days.

 

I don't know if it's really the best system out there or not (so many different opinions regarding this...the ProTools argument can o'worms is not really one I want to open here), but if you're skilled you can yield incredible-sounding results with it: Check this stuff out by Evan Parness. Done on a Mac with ProTools LE

[Gruuve]

Yup, I've heard good and bad things about ProTools LE as well. Given that it's tied to specific hardware, I probably wouldn't go that route. In fact, I may not change at all just yet. In fact, there's really no reason that I couldn't track on the existing DR, then mix/master on a PC come to think of it. I wonder what I'd actually need to get a really good monitor output on a PC? Just a really good sound card? I probably should just post that specific question on the Project Studio Forum...

 

And yes, I've been eyeballing that Korg D3200 for quite a while now. That is indeed a lot of goodies for the price. The only thing that has stopped me is the size of the display...it's tiny, especially for a 32-track machine. No matter how good the editing capabilites actually are on the machine itself, the tiny display would make editing cumbersome. If only they would devise some means to connect a VGA monitor and mouse to it (like the Roland's) or a piece of software that let's you "sync-up" to it and control it from a PC (like the Akai's), I'd probably already have bought one. As I understand it though, their "display code" is not VGA language, so there's no plans to add that capability. It still seems that they should devise some means to just plug up a larger stand-alone LCD screen...even if it's something proprietary that you have to buy from Korg, I'm sure people would jump all over it based on what I've read on the Korg Studio forums.

 

Dave

[SteveC]

I don't know if I'll have any good ideas, but I am looking forward to the arrival of my new iMac G5 this week. I don't have any fancy gear, but I do have a little adapter to allow me to record one track at a time into GaragBand. It's a start anyway.

 

Maybe if I get good, or have an idea worth recording, I'lllook to th enice set-ups some of you guys have.

[Belazaras]

Steve, surely a Mac G5 have an stereo input (aux or line in). This it´s the stereo miniplug hole for your 2 track recordings.

I had a PIII 500Mhz with a cheapo onboard soundcard and made some nice 2 tracks recordings years ago.

Now there are tons of affordable digital soundcards recording 4 or 10 tracks at 24/96.

[Gruuve]

I've been reading the manual for the Roland VS-2400CD...that might actually be a good alternative...you can hook up a VGA monitor and a mouse and keyboard. I need to go experiment with one locally, but looks like it captures most of the good things about PC-based editing. Looks like it is VERY flexible. Only 24 tracks vs. the 32 of the Korg's, but I have to ask myself "isn't 24 tracks enough?" (especially given there's virtual tracks also).

 

On another thought, I've always been a Linux fan. Anyone using Linux for their DAW? I've found Linux to be very stable for server-based business applications (once it's setup correctly)...I'd imagine the same might very well be true of DAW use? Anyway, looks like Audacity is fully supported on Linux...the question would be is there a good choice of supported audio interfaces as well. Here's quite a few more open-source DAW softwares for Linux:

 

http://linux-sound.org/hdr.html

 

Dave

[Eric VB]

Just to comment on Steve's subthread ...

 

Belazaras, yes you can record directly through the Mac's sound in (stereo) port. However, GarageBand isn't smart enough to know how to split the stereo track (at least not the version I've been working with). Not quite the same as recording two mono tracks simultaneously.

 

Another "problem" is you are stuck with the Mac's audio interface (when using the sound in port). According to Apple , that's up to 96kHz/24bit. (I don't know what the latest GarageBand supports.) That's probably more than enough for most people, but I know you PC guys would rather shop through 100s of options before picking just the right sound card (one that does 128kHz, say, just so you can say it's better than a Mac).

 

I've done some recording with my PowerBook G4 through the sound in port. One thing I will caution on is the 3.5mm format of the plug. It's really not designed to take the weight/strain of an instrument cable. The adapter I use is just a phono-to-3.5mm stereo adapter and it puts too much stress on the port. I'll be looking for an adapter that avoids this problem without adding noise.

 

But, there's lots of nice little audio interfaces these days, as Dave mentions. I was tempted to pick up an original mBox when they were being phased out and put on sale. I heard there were issues with latency, but I figured it would be worthwhile just to get ProTools. Now M-Audio has a gazillion gadgets to choose from; probably money better spent than looking for just a better cable adapter.

 

Steve, I found GB to be a decent program to get started with home recording. Apple bundles the darn thing, so you might as well use it, right? Some of the more frustrating parts of the program have been improved. (I just bought the latest iLife, but haven't had time to install it yet, so I can't say for sure other than what I've read online.) If you're only trying to record one person (yourself), one track at a time is sufficient.

 

I've been using Digital Performer for my class, and have come to see some of the features it has that are missing in GB. I think the beginner really isn't going to miss these, though. The whole point of GB is to make things as simple as possible.

 

If you decide to stick with GB, and maybe buy some of the JamPacks (the MIDI sound libraries in GB are basic and limiting), at least you can still use them when you upgrade to Logic or Logic Pro. There are other options, of course, but Apple made this migration favorable.

[Eric VB]

Back to Dave ...

 

In a way, a stand-alone is the best of both worlds. You can use it as a portable studio by itself, or you can use it together with your DAW for more options. If you use it with your DAW 100% of the time, though, you'd be better off saving money on an audio interface instead.

 

Obviously, the draw of smaller devices like a Zoom PS-04 is that you can track to a device that you can carry in your pocket. (Yes, I realize there are better devices than this one on the market.) While it includes capabilities for mixing, I think it would be better used as purely a tracking tool and let your DAW do the rest.

 

Zeronine gives a lot of great info. I especially liked his insight to mixing with a mouse. I must say that I started mixing with envelopes, and it just seems a lot easier to eliminate that errant spike when you can visually line things up instead of remembering where in the playback you have to drop the fader, and then do it in real time. But that's just one example.

 

Benloy has good advice, too. ProTools, like it or not, is an industry standard. It's like the graphic arts industry and Adobe software; you can get by without it, but sooner or later you'll be confronted with it. So, it makes sense to at least familiarize yourself with it if you can.

 

But as Dave said, being restricted to Digitech interfaces can be a drawback. Not the least of which is the cost of entry; it's going to cost at least $500. Compare that to an M-Audio/Cubase bundle.

 

Unfortunately, Dave has the unenviable task of recording drums. That means a lot of simultaneous tracks. (We used to do it with 8, but if you want 10, Dave, go for it! ) Obviously, it's much preferred to capture all your tracks instead of using a mixer to create a stereo submix. Makes me really appreciate the fact that I just have to plug in one signal direct and record!

 

It looks like you've done a lot of research on this already, Dave. I'll go back to the top of this post, though, and ask you if you ever think you'd need portable recording. To me, that's the biggest benefit of a stand-alone.

[Eric VB]

Oh, as far as monitors, I just use the headphones jack to my home stereo via a 3.5mm-to-RCA stereo adapter cable. I'd be better off with real monitors, but aren't you doing something similar with your stand-alone? That is, just taking a sound output to your monitors? (Of course, if you equipment handles digital/optical connectors, that'd probably be better.)

 

The one thing I've learned is that it doesn't matter how good the rest of your equipment is if you can't hear it. Good monitors (in hopefully a treated room) are essential.

[Mighty Thumb]

Dave,

 

I've looked pretty hard at both the Korg D3200 and the Roland VS-24xx product line. I like some of the features available on the Korg - 12 simultaneous inputs, individually switchable phantom power, etc. - but the display size and no mouse and keyboard is a concern for me; especially after putting my hands on one at Scam Cash. From what I can tell, the learning curve for the Rolands is a little steeper than the Korg. But learning is fun right?

 

Then one of our guitar players happened across a "pre-owned" VS-2400CD with monitor card at a very reasonable price. We have it on hold this week until we make a final decision, but I'm pretty sure this is the way we are going to go.

 

24 tracks vs. 32 tracks. Doesn't make that much difference to me what with virtual tracks, track bouncing and other creative ways to get more stuff on there. I'm more concerned with simultaneous recording tracks, and with an expansion board, you can do 16 with the VS-2400. For me it's just rock and roll, so I can do quite nicely with what that unit offers. If we do end up picking it up - which I think we will - I'll PM you if you want to put your hands on it and play around before you make your decision.

[Gruuve]

All good thoughts guys. RBG...I don't intend to ever take whatever outside of my music room, to be honest. So portability isn't necessarily the issue so much as stability (or perhaps my perception of stability of a stand-alone vs. a PC, which admittedly could be an undue prejudice!). A PC-based solution simply might take discipline that I probably don't have (like never going on the 'net with it, etc.).

 

I'm pretty satisfied with the drum tracks I'm getting with 3 mics (kick, two overheads) into 3 tracks. However, I believe I'll be totally satisfied if I simply close-mic the snare with one additional mic. This works incredibly well HOWEVER it should be noted that I'm always overdubbing drums to a reference track/click track/etc. I haven't recorded drums along with other acoustic instruments, or at least not in a very long time. That scenario would benefit from close-mic'ing everything...but in all honestly, the signal from overheads (plus a kick mic) actually sounds better than the signal from a close-mic'ed drum. It sounds just like what the drummer hears. IMHO, of course.

 

MT...the VS-2400 comes with the monitor card already installed. The VS-2000 has the monitor card as an option, so make sure of which one you guys are buying. Hopefully, you're getting the VS-2400...it has motorized faders where the VS-2000 does not, and of course 4 more physical tracks. However, you guys ought to be able to do some quite professional recordings with either!

 

Dave