Continuing the recording fun, new bass and drums test recordings for album...

[alexclaber]

Not here, down at t'other end of the thread...

 

----------------------------------------------

 

I've knocked together some artwork for the demo - let me know what you think!

 

http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Completed/Front%20Cover.JPG

 

http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Completed/Back%20Cover.JPG

 

 

And here's the relevant songs:

 

1. Lend Us A Fiver

 

2. Airline Girl / Terrestrial Blues

 

Coherent?

 

Alex

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

If you're looking for the two complete songs, they were down at the bottom of the thread. Or you could just click on the links for the lazy that I've added below:

 

 

Lend Us A Fiver

 

Airline Girl / Terrestrial Blues

 

----------------------------------------

 

I was wondering whether to start a thread on this elsewhere in the musicplayer forums, but there are so many to choose from and none of them shout 'pick me!' I don't know why everything is so sub-divided, seems to just cause a lack of traffic on the quieter forums, without any benefit to the larger ones. But that's another topic...

 

I'm guessing we've got a fair amount of production expertise here. But before I start writing essays on what I'm up to, holler at me if you've got engineering/mixing/production experience, vocal experience, or just a great pair of ears when it comes to the finished product, and want to get involved with advising me on my latest production.

 

Awaiting some shouts from the wise!

 

Alex

[rumpelstiltskin.]

i wouldn't say that i have expertise, but i do have experience. i probably can help most with vocal advice, but i've seen quite a few different ways to get things done and have learned a few tricks and lesser known techniques that may be helpful for you.

 

robb.

[alexclaber]

Right then, here's what I'm up to:

 

The aim of the project is to get a working demo recorded and out there to various venues/promoters. The band is still in its infancy and more practice is needed, particularly in getting the drummer really sitting in the groove and not overplaying, but I felt it was important to get something solid down ASAP. If all goes to plan we'll re-record these tracks later in the year when tracking for an album.

 

Last Wednesday I acquired a Fostex MR-8HD and that evening recorded the core of the band, live in the rehearsal room. Guitar (Strat through Roland Jazz Chorus) miked with Beta 57A onto one track, bass (Warwick through SWR GP, pre EQ) DI'd onto another track, main drum sound via JM47 (large diaphragm condenser) though outboard preamp onto another track, and kick (and some floor tom, general kit bottom) via D112 onto the fourth track.

 

These 16/44.1 tracks have been imported into Cubase SX, and converted to 24 bit (for better mixing resolution) and normalised to make life a little easier. Some guitar fixes/overdubs will be on their way to me shortly, again via Fostex. Likewise with female vocals. I'll be putting my vocals straight onto Cubase. Keys will be done in MIDI to give us more control over the sounds, though they'll probably be converted to wav files and mixed as normal once we're happy with them.

 

Mixed down without any effects and with the faders set in compromise position, the first track (actually it's two in one) was sounding like this: (right click and save to download)

 

AGTB Rough Mix

 

I then did my first lead vocal take, and here it is mixed down with the prior rough mix, again with zero effects:

 

AGTB Rough Mix 2 (mix 1 plus vocals)

 

Since then I've spent some time getting the guitar/bass/drums sounding as good as possible, by using automated faders, compression and EQ to really get the foundation of the song hitting hard. It's quite a challenge to get enough level onto tape without falling prey to excessive compression. Basically I've added some subtle compression to the bass, some EQ to the chordal part on the bass, and automated the faders for the whole mix. Here's the result: (sorry about the 30 seconds of dead time at the start)

 

AGTB Rough Mix 3 (mix 1 with some auto faders, compression, EQ)

 

I feel that with enough fiddling I'll get there with the mixing but any suggestions on that front gratefully received. The bigger challenge for me is getting the vocal really happening, which is a whole new game for me. Listening to mix 3, I feel I'll be able to do a much better take now that the dynamics of the song are really happening. Dammit Jim, I'm a bass player, not a singer... However, no-one else is going to sing it right, so I better do it!

 

Commence critique.

 

Alex

[a boy named sue]

um...I don't mean to sound rude (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the drums seem kinda loose to me on my first listen. My initial thought would be to pick the best pattern from each section and loop it. I'll have another listen....yep. I don't think there is much value in spending too much time on anything until the drums are fixed. I didn't find it so bad on Mix2 (as the song took my attention) but on listening to Mix3 it really stood out -- I guess this means the mixing and effects did their job!

 

You could probably just play the drummer Mix3 and then hit the record button when he leaps to his kit to try and show you what it should have sounded like.

[Gruuve]

Hey Alex:

 

OK, that's the kind of bass playing I'd fully expect from you...nice grooves, and nice nasally tone...I like it!

 

I'd say have the drummer tune that kit up a little tighter...a nice tight "crack" from the snare would propel the song forward more, IMHO...have him tighten the top and bottom snare heads and also tighten the snare strainer. I thinn it needs more snap, but that's just my opinion. Tighten the heads on the kick as well...raising the pitch will make it sit much nicer in the mix and it'll sound punchier.

 

On the vocals...I think you sound too restrained. I realize that was a first take, and that this is some relatively new ground for you...but, try to sing it like no one is listening (or no one is going to listen). Try to vary your range some as well. For instance, maybe sing the verse where you are now register-wise, but try to raise the register for the chorus. For myself, I've found from doing enough collabs that I actually do better when I just belt it out and sound how I sound, versus trying to force my voice to sound a certain way. That works for me, but then I'm a belter...not sure what will work best for you, but you're going to have to just keep trying until you find it. I do think your voice sounds like a good match for the style of music though...need to work on nailing the pitches in the vocal however. In the 2nd mix, I thought the music itself all has a very live vibe to it, while the vocal did not...it sounded over-dubbed to me...maybe just too dry? Add a little reverb and/or chorus to the vocal, and compress and EQ it as well (try bumping some of the low-mids in your voice would be my first thought).

 

Post more as you go...

 

HTH,

Dave

[dohhhhh6]

I like the music. Reminds me a little bit of Red Hot Chili Peppers. I do agree, the vocals sound overdubbed. On the other hand, groovy as hell. I also actually like the vocals. The sound, it's funky/weird. I defintely think it's dig. It's definitely it's own sound. Kinda reminds me of Interpol (slightly).

[Nicklab]

Sounds cool Alex. I've been serving as producer or co-producer on the last few projects I've worked on. Here are some quick bullet points I would offer:

 

-The transition from the intro to the first verse needs to get tightened up. It sounds a little too loose there. You might want to consider throwing a stop in there. It might add the artificial effect of that first verse sounding tighter from the top. Even though this is a demo, it's always good practice to approach any demo as if it's a master.

 

-Drum sound. I think the kick sound is workable. I would add some high end to it so that the attack of the kick pedal is better accentuated. I would also recommend adding a snare mic in the future. I've had good experiences with getting a room sound for a kit, but almost every time we supplemented a stereo pair of overheads with a snare mic and a kick mic. An SM-57 works wonders for snare when you're on a budget.

 

-Vocals. I'll refrain from being as critical as I can be in a control room. Obviously the vocal sounds overdubbed. Throw some reverb on the vocal and it might start sounding a little better. You certainly don't sound very comfortable, and I understand from listening to the music that a female singer might be a cool fit. Maybe someone who can bring something of a Morcheeba vibe to the vocal. Overall I like the way the vocal melody works. I'd play around with it a bit. Also, from speaking with the singer in my own band, almost everyone who's singing in a band can benefit from going to a vocal teacher. But most importantly, try to be as comfortable as possible when you do your vocal takes. And if you're having issues with your throat, try drinking room temperature apple juice. It's got the right level of acidity to keep you phlegm-free, and serving it at room temperature is better for the muscles of your throat. Cold drinks cause your throat to constrict and tighten up.

 

-Overall performance. Cool. I dig the groove. The jam out at the end could stand to be tightened up. I noticed that your drummer was getting a little busy going back and forth between the snare and the hi-hats. That got a little distracting. A couple of his fills needed some help, too. I dig what you and the guitar player are doing though.

[Mike Bear]

I don't think you mentioned doing it. But if you have mic'd the snare you can try this trick out which I have found nice. Duplicate the snare track, EQ one for the fullness that a snare should have. EQ the second for the snap. Put the same type of verb on both, but mainly on the full range track.

 

If I did read correctly, you said you recorded the drums with one mic for the kit and one for the kick. You may be able to duplicate the full kit track and do some cool EQing. Also try out some of the Cubase SX pre-set EQ's and Multiband Compression if you want a good starting point.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by a boy named sue:

um...I don't mean to sound rude (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the drums seem kinda loose to me on my first listen.

They are! But we must work with what we've got. In this context I'd rather have loose yet real drums than a series of loops, particularly as the dynamics and feel vary throughout the song. Every practice his playing improves by leaps and bounds as he gets more inside the songs and pares down his drum parts. I'm confident by the time we get to tracking for an album (if the usual logistical trainwreck hasn't happened by then!) he'll be nice and tight and musical. You should hear him playing Led Zep beats - he's dead on and really tight! Just a question of him understanding both the songs and his own playing on them, which is a matter of time.

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

OK, that's the kind of bass playing I'd fully expect from you...nice grooves, and nice nasally tone...I like it!

Thank you, kind sir!

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

I'd say have the drummer tune that kit up a little tighter...a nice tight "crack" from the snare would propel the song forward more, IMHO...have him tighten the top and bottom snare heads and also tighten the snare strainer. I thinn it needs more snap, but that's just my opinion. Tighten the heads on the kick as well...raising the pitch will make it sit much nicer in the mix and it'll sound punchier.

Good points. The snare/cymbals were his own, the rest just the practice room gear. I'll have a word with him about getting a sharper and more cutting snare sound. He does need to work on his hi-hat vs snare balance, particularly on open hi-hat moments. His kick work is very busy so I'm wary of a too in-your-face sound becoming overwhelming.

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

On the vocals...I think you sound too restrained. I realize that was a first take, and that this is some relatively new ground for you...but, try to sing it like no one is listening (or no one is going to listen)..

I'm hoping the improved mix will help me get more into it. Also I wasn't really getting enough output into the headphones - now that the tracks have been normalised I should be able to sing without drowning out the band!

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Try to vary your range some as well. For instance, maybe sing the verse where you are now register-wise, but try to raise the register for the chorus.)..

Actually, I do go quite high on the chorus, especially compared to the rather low verse part. Definitely need to work on hitting those high notes without sounding like I'm pushing too hard, though some musical break-up wouldn't go amiss.

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

In the 2nd mix, I thought the music itself all has a very live vibe to it, while the vocal did not...it sounded over-dubbed to me...maybe just too dry?

Completely dry!

 

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

I like the music... ...It's definitely it's own sound...

Yay!

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

Sounds cool Alex.

Thanks Nick!

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

The transition from the intro to the first verse needs to get tightened up. It sounds a little too loose there. You might want to consider throwing a stop in there.

Good point! I've done some messing around and found that I can fade the bass out quickly to add a break, which improves things. And then I noticed the real problem: The drummer comes in too early; the joys of Cubase and graphical displays, I just looked that the guitar and bass tracks and they hit the downbeat dead-on, whilst the drummer comes in significantly early. But by the next significant beat the drummer is back in sync with us. So what I'm going to try and do is copy and paste that first drum hit into another track, move it back so it's in time, mute the original track for the downbeat and then crossfade between the new track and the original track.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

I think the kick sound is workable. I would add some high end to it so that the attack of the kick pedal is better accentuated.

I'm reluctant to add high EQ to the kick track because of the bleed from the hi-hat. I think next time we'll use a harder beater to get some more click.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

I would also recommend adding a snare mic in the future. I've had good experiences with getting a room sound for a kit, but almost every time we supplemented a stereo pair of overheads with a snare mic and a kick mic. An SM-57 works wonders for snare when you're on a budget.

Here we run into a track count problem! The way I see it, is that if you're close miking the snare, you really need to close mic the toms to get a balanced sound. And if your drummer is good, he should be able to get a balanced sound from just one mic plus a kick mic. I think that next time I'll move the main mic so it's further from the hi-hats as he hits them a little too hard. Also maybe a tighter snare tuning will give a little more cut.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

-Vocals. I'll refrain from being as critical as I can be in a control room. Obviously the vocal sounds overdubbed. Throw some reverb on the vocal and it might start sounding a little better. You certainly don't sound very comfortable, and I understand from listening to the music that a female singer might be a cool fit. Maybe someone who can bring something of a Morcheeba vibe to the vocal..

Interesting thoughts. I know what you mean about the vocal sounding uncomfortable but then again I don't want it to go all the way to the side of cool a la Morcheeba. More Talking Heads than Massive Attack, if you dig me? But our other singer will be recording the backing harmonies to this and she's also going to lay down a lead vocal and we'll see if she sounds more appropriate on certain parts.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

Overall I like the way the vocal melody works.

Excellent.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

But most importantly, try to be as comfortable as possible when you do your vocal takes.

Will do. Also, our other singer will come and give me some emergency coaching if I'm failing to pull off a good enough take! She knows what she's doing, being classically trained and very experienced and hopefully in future I'll fit in some singing lessons from her.

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

Overall performance. Cool. I dig the groove. The jam out at the end could stand to be tightened up. I noticed that your drummer was getting a little busy going back and forth between the snare and the hi-hats. That got a little distracting. A couple of his fills needed some help, too. I dig what you and the guitar player are doing though.

I kept us going on that jam so we'd have plenty to work with for a fade out. But as the very end has some cool guitar and bass moments I think we'll do a bit of cutting and pasting and then fade to that.

 

Originally posted by Mike Bear:

If I did read correctly, you said you recorded the drums with one mic for the kit and one for the kick. You may be able to duplicate the full kit track and do some cool EQing. Also try out some of the Cubase SX pre-set EQ's and Multiband Compression if you want a good starting point.

I'll definitely do some experimenting with that. I've already had a go at problem fixing on another tune where the open hi-hats are overwhelming the snare, by judicious use of fully parametric EQ. I think there's some potential for EQ driven side-chain compression and expansion for cleaning up certain drum moments but it's something else I need to learn how to do on Cubase.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

On the drum mic'ing...where do you have the mic's placed and which mic's are you using? I'm a big fan of the AKG D-112 for the kick. It usually sounds fantastic with little or no EQ'ing. If the kit has a resonant head, either cut an off-center hole in it (if you can, I realize this may be a rehearsal studio kit), or just take the resonant head off completely. Put the kick mic just inside the plane of the front head or even closer, and point it right at the spot where the beater hits on the other side. (The further inside you put the kick mic, the more smack and less thud the signal will have). And yes, use a hard beater rather than a felt beater...you'll get lots of smack even from the non-batter side of the head. If you put the mic more inside the kick drum, you'll get very little bleed through from the other parts of the kit.

 

I'd still say at least try raising the kick pitch though. Even if he's doing something busy with the kick, it'll sound more articulate (vs boomy/muddy) with the higher pitch and hard beater. You might find that it works nicely tuned up even with a busier kick part.

 

If you only have two mic's to work with, I'd say close mic the kick and use the other as a single overhead rather than close-mic'ing anything else. I did that with this tune Sing To The King - Dave\'s Arrangement and the drums sound really good. (The drums were over-dubbed though...I realize you are recording the group, so positioning the overhead will be a little tougher.) I'm discovering that my preference for mic'ing drums (at least for what I do) is close-mic the kick, use two overhead condenser's, and optionally close mic the snare. Even if you close mic the snare, you don't truly need to close-mic the toms IMHO...toms and cymbals both usually sound good in overheads, and you can tweak the toms a little without messing up the cymbals even though they are on the same tracks. Close mic'ing the snare just gives you some additional control of how much attack it has during mixdown...you get the main snare sound from the overheads and you just add a little signal from the close mic to that to get the right punchiness.

 

To put it simply, try to position the mic's (with the exception of the kick mic) to hear what the drummer hears.

 

HTH,

Dave

[getz out]

How did I miss this? I'll take a listen tonight.

 

What kind of space are you working in? I didn't see that mentioned.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by getz76:

What kind of space are you working in?

The tracking of the band was all done in our rehearsal room, which isn't the biggest of rooms, but it's pretty dead on the high end and oddly shaped which helps keep the bottom in check. Nice and neutral and recording-friendly IMO.

 

We had the drums set up as usual on the riser, the D112 about a foot from the resonant head (which annoyingly has a hole in the centre - do they know nothing about drum skin modes of resonance?) pointing at a spot about halfway between the rim and centre on the floor tom side of the drum (so it's also picking up the floor tom and some of the rack tom). The main drum mic was a Joe Meek JM47 large diaphragm condenser which was positioned about 3' away from the snare pointing directly at the snare, on the far side of the LH crash cymbal, and slightly above the hi-hat and ride (both on LHS of drummer). The two drum mics had a track each.

 

The guitar amp was pointing away from the drum kit and close miked and hardly bled at all. The bass rig was the other side of the room, inevitably bled quite a bit into the drum mics, and was DI'd.

 

Our female singer sang all the lead parts without a mic to keep us from getting lost!

 

But that's all been and gone. That which has been recorded live with the band with that minimalist drum miking and not the tidiest takes (but the best we've managed yet) is all we've got to work with. NB: This is for a demo, not for a finished album. So the challenge now is making this sound as good as possible by a combination of careful editing, overdubbing, mixing and mastering.

 

Here's my other track we're working on:

 

Mix 1 - first rough mix

 

Mix 2 - rough mix plus vocal

 

Mix 3 - no vocals but effects and automation added and stereo

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Understood on trying to make the most of what you have at the moment! I'll give these new ones a listen later tonight.

 

Just a thought here...you have a female vocalist, but you've said you're recording the vocals because you're the only one who can sing it "right". I'd throw out this suggestion: send the singer off for a few days with the instrumental tracks, and tell her to sing it how she sings it. I've certainly found (say, from the collabs that we've done here, for instance) that when other folks apply their creative energy to something using their own interpretation of it, sometimes they come up with something that's really cool that you would have never thought of. What I'm saying is perhaps relax your concept of what exactly "singing it right" is, and let her see what she can pull out of the trick bag. Just a thought...

 

Dave

[Big Daddy from Motown]

The technical advice is basicly fine. I would compress your drummer right in the basic track.

 

The main thing I want to mention is that the performance is everything. The tune needs lots more rehersal. The rough demo has lots of potential, but it needs polishing.

 

Good luck

 

P.S. What is a duvet?

[Nicklab]

Alex, I appreciate your concerns about the drum mics. Still, I think it's possible to get better sounds from your drummer's kit. As for bleed? That's a fact of life when you're dealing with an acoustic drum kit. The trick is finding a good balance with the high end on the kick and the snare mic without overpowering the stereo image of the drums. You always have to listen to the kit and make your level and eq adjustments accordingly. So give the snare mic a try and goose the high end on the kick. I think the end result might be better than you think.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Just a thought here...you have a female vocalist, but you've said you're recording the vocals because you're the only one who can sing it "right".

I didn't really make that very clear did I? Basically we have two singer-songwriters in the band, and whoever writes the song nominally sings lead on it. However, we'll record leads for both of us and see how it sounds.

 

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

I would compress your drummer right in the basic track.

That's what I thought I'd do. But how do make this work without making the cymbals louder? Hmmm...

 

 

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

The main thing I want to mention is that the performance is everything. The tune needs lots more rehersal.

Indeed it does. But by getting this demo out there, we can go and practise in front of an audience! And then we can record it properly.

 

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

P.S. What is a duvet?

Ah, this may explain; Professional Duvet Thief caught in the act:

 

http://www.thehumanzoo.com/alex/Famous%20Indoor%20Bear.JPG

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

Alex, I appreciate your concerns about the drum mics. Still, I think it's possible to get better sounds from your drummer's kit. As for bleed? That's a fact of life when you're dealing with an acoustic drum kit. The trick is finding a good balance with the high end on the kick and the snare mic without overpowering the stereo image of the drums. You always have to listen to the kit and make your level and eq adjustments accordingly. So give the snare mic a try and goose the high end on the kick. I think the end result might be better than you think.

Nick, I'm still up against the track count problem - I've only got two tracks for the drums! Interesting that everyone thinks the drums could sound a lot better - the funny thing is that they sound incredibly similar to how they do in the room, which I rather like, warts and all. And although there is an image, it's not stereo, on account of the lack of tracks.

 

Right then, here's the latest mix. Pretty much sorted IMO and awaiting keys and vocals. Tell me what you think!

 

AGTB Rough Mix 4 - pretty much done, awaiting keys and vocals

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Just a thought, if this might help (although probably next time!). That Fostex has virtual tracks, right? Check the manual, but I'd imagine you can submix a set of tracks down to, say, a pair of stereo virtual tracks, then track more stuff to additional virtual tracks. The good news with virtual tracks is that if you need to redo that submix, you haven't over-written anything and you can redo it easily and everything's in sync, etc.

 

For instance, I gather you tracked drums, bass, and guitar as a band, but are over-dubbing keys and vocals, right? You could have used tracks 1A - 8A (up to 6 mics on the drums although I'd think 4 would be ideal, bass direct, and 1 guitar mic), then submixed drums to 1B and 2B, moved/copied guitar and bass to 3B and 4B, then over-dubbed keys and vocals on 5B - 8B, etc.

 

This approach CAN get quite cumbersome, so choose what you submix carefully, but this should definitely give you some flexibility, even if it's for next time you demo-record.

 

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

That Fostex has virtual tracks...

Dave, you over-estimate the power of this device. No virtual tracks and only 4 tracks can be recorded at once. So to track the rhythm section (which includes the guitar with us) you've only got two tracks spare for the drums. The Fostex is basically a way for me to easily record four signals independently which I can then manipulate and build upon on Cubase.

 

Perfect for my needs, but you have to be quite guerrila in how you deal with the drums. The pro of that is your drummer has to play better if he wants to sound better, instead of demanding mics be constantly moved around and mixes tweaked. The con is that you can't do much processing afterwards. So it's all down to the performance which in this case was loose and too busy but overall nicely musical.

 

Alex

[Gruuve]

Ah...I see, no virtual tracks. But, you actually can bounce a submix to tracks 7 and 8 of a different song. However, that really doesn't buy you that much in this case since you can only record 4 inputs simultaneously. You *could* submix some signals before the input on the recorder, but then that would require an additional mixer.

 

You're doing the mixing on a PC anyway, so...um...scratch the idea...

 

Dave

[Gruuve]

Just as a silly thought, you *could* plop a drum machine track on there, lay down a bassline and guide vocal or something, then let him track drums by himself to that reference. That works really well if the drummer can play to a ref track (that's what I do, since I can't play drums and bass at the same time ) But, then you do sometimes loose some of the "live vibe" to it by doing it that way. Anyway, just a thought...I realize this doesn't help you with the current task at hand however.

 

Just a thought on your compression and cymbal loudness concern. Do you have multi-band compression available in Cubase? If so, you should be able to compress the mids and lows differently than the highs, plus set the relative levels of each frequency band. The cymbals are almost entirely highs, so you should be able to EQ and otherwise tweak things underneath (toms, snare, etc.) without it really changing the sound of the cymbals to a noticeable degree. In fact, you *might* be able to drop the amplitude of the cymbals themselves by lowering the highs on that track if you set the center frequency high enough. I'm assuming that you'd do this in Cubase and that it has parametric EQ with reasonable frequency center ranges available.

 

However, I wouldn't expect compressing everything equally to make the cymbals louder...you usually get the opposite (squashing something with single-band compression usually makes the highs disappear relative to other fequencies, depending on how you have the compression parameters set). If that's what you're getting, check to see if you're already using multi-band compression...if so, tweak the compression gain or relative level for the highs.

 

HTH,

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Just as a silly thought, you *could* plop a drum machine track on there, lay down a bassline and guide vocal or something, then let him track drums by himself to that reference... ...But, then you do sometimes loose some of the "live vibe" to it by doing it that way.

I'm very sceptical of tracking drums like that unless the drummer is very experienced in playing to a click and recording with minimal accompaniment. This drummer certainly isn't. Also I'm a great believer in recording things with most of the band playing together so you get more natural dynamics and changes of feel and tempo - for instance on one of the other tracks where I was playing straight 8th notes I really concentrated on maximising my use of dynamics, accenting and note position relative to the beat, which I feel helps the song build towards its climax as musically as possible.

 

 

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

Do you have multi-band compression available in Cubase?

I haven't found it yet - but it may be hiding somewhere. I've done some experimenting with compression and gating on the kick and although it makes it click and cut more, it doesn't sound as real, and struggles with the dynamics.

 

Getting closer to a final mix:

 

AGTB Rough Mix 5 - guitar, bass and drums sorted

 

Alex

[alexclaber]

Also uploaded the latest mixes to the other two tracks:

 

LUAF Rough Mix 4 - guitar, bass & drums fairly well sorted

 

TR Rough Mix 2 - guitar, bass & drums also fairly well sorted

 

See what you think! Spot anything that needs fixing?

 

Alex

[getz out]

I couldn't get on to the musicplayer.com site last night, so I'm sorry I have not listened to the tracks.

 

There is a multiband compressor in Cubase SX 1.02 or higher. It should be in "dynamics" plugins.

 

I'll take a listen at work...

[getz out]

I took a listen.

 

Nice work, Mr. Claber. I dig the tunes. They have been developing since I last listened some time ago. I like it.

 

I tried not to read much of the previous commenting posts so my opinion is not biased.

 

This is good enough for a demo. Good enough is exactly that.

 

The weak link is the sound of the drums in my opinion. There is zero snare snap and the lack of stereo drums give the track a really flat feel.

 

If you wanted something measurably better using the same tracking tool, I would suggest an outboard mixer on the drums and use four microphones (kick, bottom snare, and two stereo overheads condensers). Get a good, stereo drum mix and put it into 2 channels on the Fostex. Hard pan those two channels when you get into Cubase.

 

Something like this would be perfect:

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/5/5/3/232553.jpg

 

Stereo and it has four XLR channels with phantom power. It goes for about $80 US.

 

The only other option is to fly me over the pond and have me track you... my entire (essential) recording rig (less leads and mic stands) fits in a 3-space rack and a deep-briefcase sized mic-locker.

[Nicklab]

I was thinking along similar lines. Doing a drum submix using a small mixer like Maury suggested might get you a pretty cool drum sound. Opinions can differ though, and I would opt more for a mic on the top snare head rather than the bottom head alone. However, I do like the sound of one mic on the top head and another on the bottom blended together.

 

The biggest wrinkle for your budget here might be the condensor mics. Having a matched pair will certainly serve you well in recording. You can use them for drums and acoustic guitar for instance. But they can be a little bit pricey.

[getz out]

I won't disagree with Nick; a mic on top of the snare is killer. I usually prefer that, especially when micing the toms separately. With just four microphones on a well tuned kit, I'd go with the overheads to get some snare, and a mic under the snare to give a bit of character. Obviously, the kick mic is essential.

 

Indeed, a nice pair of overhead condenser microphones can get pricey. I swear by my Crown CM-700MP mics:

 

 

http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/images/cm700mp.jpg

[Gruuve]

My lovely wife got me a matched pair of Behringer C2 pencil condensers as one of my Christmas presents this year (as well as an AKG D-112). I wasn't expecting the C2's to be anything great, but they sound really, really (surprisingly!) good to my ears, especially given the dirt-cheap price. I'm using them as drum overheads. In the US, they are a pocket-change-like cost of $50 for a matched pair...about as no-brainer as you can get!

 

Dave

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by getz76:

I dig the tunes.

Excellent.

 

Originally posted by getz76:

The weak link is the sound of the drums in my opinion. There is zero snare snap and the lack of stereo drums give the track a really flat feel.

There seems to be quite a consensus on this!

 

Originally posted by getz76:

If you wanted something measurably better using the same tracking tool, I would suggest an outboard mixer on the drums and use four microphones (kick, bottom snare, and two stereo overheads condensers). Get a good, stereo drum mix and put it into 2 channels on the Fostex. Hard pan those two channels when you get into Cubase.

Hmmm... Maybe I'll give that a go. How many dB of snare mic vs overheads do you tend to mix in in this situation?

 

Originally posted by getz76:

Something like this would be perfect... ...Stereo and it has four XLR channels with phantom power. It goes for about $80 US.

That's very nifty. And Peavey so it'll last for ever! Like the low distortion mic preamps, that counts for a lot.

 

Originally posted by getz76:

The only other option is to fly me over the pond and have me track you...

I'm not averse to that. Of course, we'll have to reimburse your expenses once we've sold enough albums!

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

I was thinking along similar lines. Doing a drum submix using a small mixer like Maury suggested might get you a pretty cool drum sound. Opinions can differ though, and I would opt more for a mic on the top snare head rather than the bottom head alone.

This is going to take some experimentation. My natural inclination is a top mic and if using a bottom mic surely I need to reverse the phase?

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

The biggest wrinkle for your budget here might be the condensor mics. Having a matched pair will certainly serve you well in recording. You can use them for drums and acoustic guitar for instance. But they can be a little bit pricey.

I already have a pair of AKG C1000 mics - not the prettiest sounding condensers in the world but fairly accurate with lots of snap. Maybe that large diaghram condenser is too big and warm sounding...

 

I'll put some new mixes up once we've got keys and vocals added. I'm guessing my cunning editing (as inspired by Nick) was good enough to slip under the radar (moving some drum hits around mostly). I'm particularly pleased with the chordal bass break in the middle of AGTB - a bit of EQ and reverb and it sounds a whole lot better!

 

Alex

[getz out]

How many dB of snare mic vs overheads do you tend to mix in in this situation?

That really depends on what your overheads are picking up and what the kit sounds like. The snare really drives music in this context, so it needs to be prominent; this is what your average person will "clap" to...

 

My natural inclination is a top mic and if using a bottom mic surely I need to reverse the phase?

Yes, Cubase SX can do this if you cannot on the microphone itself.

 

I already have a pair of AKG C1000 mics - not the prettiest sounding condensers in the world but fairly accurate with lots of snap.

Those should easily be up to the task!

 

I believe the Peavey mixer is made in China. That doesn't mean it is good or bad, but it means it might be different than other Peavey gear that was manufactured in the US.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by getz76: The snare really drives music in this context, so it needs to be prominent; this is what your average person will "clap" to...

Well, we don't want average people listening to us - this is music for special people.

 

Yes, Cubase SX can do this if you cannot on the microphone itself.

However by the time the drums are on Cubase they'll be a stereo pair. Further investigation has confirmed that the top snare mic is the usual choice for a four mic drum set-up; apparently the snares themselves have a very compressed dynamic range so you can do some cunning mixing tricks if you can control them separately. But if they're in with everything else then they're tend to be less useful for providing snare punch than the top skin sound.

 

Those [C1000] should easily be up to the task!

Now I need to contruct an XY stereo mount - seems the best bet for phase coherency onto tape. Wish my drummer didn't have his ride and hi-hat next to each other though, not good for the stereo image...

 

I believe the Peavey mixer is made in China.

I still have irrevocable faith in Peavey's QC - they've built a musical empire on gear that you can never find a good excuse to replace! (and now most of their stuff sounds good too...)

 

Alex