The AccuGroove Situation - I'd like an answer: Anyone else?

[way2fat]

Agreed, Dave. I'm pointing out that I think he is trying. As much as I love the sound of my cab, I was prepared to switch brands if we couldn't resolve my situation to my satifaction.

[g.]

Dave Sisk: Hmmm...so the implication is that the AccuSwitch was checked for correctness with DC, but the designer forgot to check it with AC. Okey dokey.

That really doesn't matter ANYWAY. Because Capacitors have NEVER been capable of doing that particular job and that knowledge is widely available to even beginning dabblers.

 

Accugroove definitely is NOT getting chippped away at by its competitors. Unless BASS PLAYER MAGAZINE is also a competitor. Seems unlikely, given that AG was placing ad money there. Once out in the open, everybody in the community who cares is open to comment. Most of the comments come from people who were either customers or potential customers.

[davio]

...and Acme.

[g.]

And Jim Bergantino. And so what? It was out in the open, and enough junk science was being spouted by ignoramuses to totally obscure the landscape. They helped put the science out there, like THE TRUTH, Mulder.

 

Think of them as expert witnesses. Or if you wish, think of them as competitors who think they lost sales to an unfair advantage, or maybe just guys that felt disgust that such an apparent sham could be perpetrated.

 

It doesn't matter about those guys though. They were messengers, not the message.

[davio]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Accugroove definitely is NOT getting chippped away at by its competitors.

Originally posted by greenboy:

[...]think of them as competitors who think they lost sales to an unfair advantage[...]

Contradiction or correction?

[davio]

Honestly, before I get anybody riled up, I'm not too concerned with the outcome of this situation (although I hope things work out for Mark). I'm just trying to have a bit of fun with the convo.

[g.]

Neither. There is always depth as well as width and length in a three-dimensional discussion. I've seen in past posts that you'd like to believe just about anything rather than see that the Accuswitch is a sham - and that it HAS influenced sales - at least there are people have said they bought an AG cab because of the switch.

 

Instead you want to focus on the fact that some of the people with commentary, proofs, or tests that others can conduct have built speaker cabs too (well, since only a small amount of other people even have a clue what it would take technically, I think it's understandable!).

 

Ever since the Accuswitch was bragged up though, some of us have been asking, wondering, and pondering how it could possibly work. People with mild or great technical backgrounds have been stymied. Some have gotten answers back - at times - that it wasn't dual voice coils, it wasn't transformers, etc. Then it turns out that its nothing but an epoxy-sealed, off-the-shelf component set black-boxed and connected to a switch - and it's components that costs less than a buck whose properties have been fully explored and leveraged ever since the dawn of electronics.

 

Capcitors can't possibly do THAT JOB, and BP Mag found that out. Maybe you should be lumping on them too since you don't want to place the responsibility roughly where it belongs.

[way2fat]

The way I see it, Mark is part of the Low-Down family, and it is from family that we get the most unvarnished opinions. We've slapped his ass around cyber-land for a while now, and punished him by making him listen to advice. I hope that if he does the right thing, and I consider rectifying my situation promptly, without excuse or argument, possibly against the advice of counsel, a right thing, we'll be as quick to offer our forgivness and support, and encourage him to continue upon the path of righteousness and monster bottom end. Nor should anyone even think of trying to compete with me when it comes to comma splicing.

[davio]

Well let's see...

 

If you would like to continue misreading my posts as I've apparently misread yours, you can continue your tirade of recounting the entire discussion thus far.

 

If you enjoy waving the fact that many of us don't have the technical and/or conceptual knowledge that you possess in our faces and that some don't even have the desire to gain said knowledge, please continue that as well.

 

First and foremost, you missed my point of really not caring about the situation anymore. Those previous posts that you mentioned were shot down some time ago and I realized where my rationale was flawed. What you succeeded in doing is calling me an idiot and reiterating once again everything I've read in the last 7 pages of dribbledepth indeed.

 

My comment had nothing to do with the argument at hand and was strictly unbiased but was pointed at your inaccurate comment about AccuGroove not being chipped away at by its competitors. I know you'll never be able to admit (especially publicly) that you were mistaken, but you did, in fact, disprove yourself on that point no matter how much depth you would like to believe was implied in your posts.

 

Quit assuming that everybody else tries to load as much implication as possible into their comments like you do. I wasnt arguing for AccuGroove/Mark again and I wasnt saying that anyone else is at fault for this fiasco. I said what I meant and meant nothing more by it.

 

This is where you use an abundance of words to tell me that I don't have the depth of understanding that you do and that I should leave this to more equipped thinkers than myself...or, of course, use your patented two-word dismissal.

 

Carry on.

[davio]

Why is it so &$#*ing easy to get pulled out of a good mood around here in recent weeks?

[g.]

Because you have found a scapegoat?

[davio]

I found a scapegoat?

 

Ok.

 

I was originally hoping for a bit of gentle, friendly joking and prodding but I see that this is far too sensitive a subject even at this point.

 

So ok.

[Pernax]

I'm not going to take any sides in all of this, but there's a general rule worth remembering - If you can't take the heat, stay away from the kitchen.

[g.]

davio,

 

It's pretty hard not to think after you've jumped in and out and played it one way, then said you were over it, then did it again, that this last bit wasn't more of the same. And I really think you ought to stop projecting so much. Not healthy to assume that because I mention something about the technical stuff that I am calling you stupid. The only ones stupid are the ones who think that they don't have to actually know anything technical but still can speak with veracity about things that are largely (but not entirely) technical issues. If you are not one of those people who does that, why should you feel I am being condescending or insulting you?

 

That's projection.

 

* * *

 

On the other hand, quite frankly it amazes how many so-called musicians in this "expert" forum are uninterested and non-conversant of any depth when it comes to actual music theory or music technology or music intellectual property rights or a number of other musically-related issues. There's a small handful here who actually like to talk about the real stuff. Perhaps that frustration of mine surfaces here. I also notice it in others' posts though, occasionally.

 

Perhaps I should leave as I have done before because what I enjoy talking about, I like to do it in depth and with some accuracy and try to get to the bottom of things as much is actually possible. And you are faulting me for that. And that actually seems to be a prevailing attitude around here, in my eyes anyway.

 

I see the waste, watching interesting topics slump, or getting tortured by one liners with no posts of substance following. I see crap topics go on for pages at the same time worthy ones stumble. If I come to a place I want it to be special. Maybe it is for some already, but for me it's not enough. I bet there are a few others who often feel this a bit too.

 

It was very nice in my 'shed. I was just telling Ben that tonight. Maybe I've outlived my time here again, tenfold, and have been too stupid to come back and to try. Maybe I type too much. But man, I think a lot of people give too little. It sucks to suffer through that.

 

I guess you've suffered a little here and I know I have. So call it good.

[davio]

Pernax, if that's aimed at me (which I'm guessing it is since I was the last one to come into this discussion) are you really not taking sides?

 

Should there be any heat in the first place? I mean -- honestly -- this is a place for us to discuss all things bass. Why is it that when I pointed out an inconsistancy in reasoning, the hammer suddenly came down on me? It's not like I was inciting a riot or trying to start a fight. I think the tension level here has been way too high as people have been waiting for some word of resolution.

 

I genuinely enjoy greenboy's presence since he's come back to the board. I really like the way he's constantly challenging people to open their eyes and minds to new ideas and innovations. It's just that it seems like in every other post somebody has made a gramatical or contextual error of some sort and somebody takes it the wrong way and things are constantly on the verge of blowing up as it seems happened in this case.

 

Would it be possible for us all to take a deep breath and start assuming that what is said is not meant in the worst way possible and ask or wait for clarification before going off?

[g.]

I don't think there is some inconsistency in having either Andy or Jim Bergantino or another speaker cab guy making remarks, challenging people to make tests, or whatever - and not doing it soley as a competitive move. This is a rather small community actually and these people talk on forums (or have), among us, with us, one to one, kind of as equals until their expertise comes to play. That includes Mark too.

 

Why should they suddendly not be allowed to comment? Should all professional people skeedaddle? Or maybe just when a real issue like this comes up? Do they get to grandstand and then disappear when the heat is on? Are standards different at one time then another? I think we all kind of have accpeted such people and encouraged them nbot to only tell us about their products but also to be feel free to speak their minds. And the internet in general has a little bit of that meme built in anyway.

 

So I do not believe I have contradicted myself. Sorry. As far as I'm concerned these guys have the right to speak not as suits but as guys that know something and maybe it rubbed them wrong. We all have that righ, and at least some of us here are pursuing careers and networking, making the intenet cocktail party to see and be seen. So where's the line to be drawn?

[g.]

way2fat: The way I see it, Mark is part of the Low-Down family, and it is from family that we get the most unvarnished opinions. We've slapped his ass around cyber-land for a while now, and punished him by making him listen to advice. I hope that if he does the right thing, and I consider rectifying my situation promptly, without excuse or argument, possibly against the advice of counsel, a right thing, we'll be as quick to offer our forgivness and support, and encourage him to continue upon the path of righteousness and monster bottom end. Nor should anyone even think of trying to compete with me when it comes to comma splicing.

I was going to say amen to this before that other little bit came along. Maybe the online bass community is still small enough for this to actually get tied up in a fairly neat package with the majority of us able to forgive. And maybe some lessons will actually go out. I'd hate to see it become the world Dave Gallagher says it is. I like my dreams.

[davio]

GB: For your first point, I'm sorry if I missed it but I didn't think I "did it again." IIRC, once I left the subject of the debate I stayed out. For projection, I think that pointing out a nonexistent proverbial third dimension sounds a bit too much like calling me shallow (stupid was the wrong word for me to use). Regardless of the intent, I'd have to say it's only natural for me to assume that a comment (be it calling somebody stupid or shallow or what have you) in the context of addressing me is aimed at me.

 

But enough about that.

 

* * *

 

I feel your pain about sagging threads and meaningless posts. I am a largely at fault for some of that. I've realized it before but rationalized it in my own mind because, typically, if I find myself in a conversation to which I have little to add I try to throw in some bit of humor. I do my best, though, to add whatever experience and knowledge I may have to any thread I feel like I know something about hoping that somebody might get something out of it. I'm fairly young and inexperienced in comparison to most on this board so I don't think I have as much to add in most cases but I do what I can.

 

I am a bit taken aback that you feel that I fault you for wanting to explore topics more in depth. If nothing else, I respect you for that part of your nature more than anything else. In this particular case I feel like this thread is beating a dead horse and really hasn't made any headway since all of the info on the situation was brought into the light. I don't think it's going to go anywhere else until we hear some word from AccuGroove either.

 

Personally, I don't want you to leave again because it feels like you help us keep conversations moving and offer insight and perspective few others can.

 

* * *

 

I never said that I fault Andy, Jim or anyone else who has lent their expertise to inform the public. I applaud them if it's done in a civil manner. I was only concerning myself with your comment about them not chipping away at AccuGroove. While I don't think that they're wrong in doing so, I do feel that they are chipping away at the company. It's their right as competitors and knowledgeable and credible people to do so. Chipping away at AG isn't necessarily a bad or immoral thing, I was just saying that they are doing it.

[Pernax]

Davio,

 

I'm not taking sides on the AG matter but like you pointed, can't say I'm neutral concerning the conversation between you and GB.

 

With all due respect, it seemed like once you got a bit of "heat" from your post, you replied with this "one liner":

 

Originally posted by davio:

Why is it so &$#*ing easy to get pulled out of a good mood around here in recent weeks?

For me it sounded like you came to the sandbox (this thread) once again, with a new toy, and when the other kids didn't want to play the way you wanted (again) you gathered your toys, stomped your feet and headed home.

 

The above quote was the only reason for my post, I wont go into the content/validy of your other posts now (stupid work). I apologize if I hurt your feelings, and I do share your opinion on having different views on our various discussions on this forum.

 

If you feel the need for me to elaborate more, I'd be glad to do so, once I get home from work, and preferably via private messages, so not to distract this thread from its original topic any more.

 

-P

[way2fat]

Well, for as long as I've been here GB has been consistent in calling out specmanship. Alex too. I don't believe either of them has ever met a spec that he didn't challenge. I consider them to be, on the subject of sound, take-no-prisoners, let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may dudes. But neither of them has made it personal and I can tell you from experience that the same things GB says in print don't sound as harsh on the phone. That's a limitation of the print medium. I think davio's comment about losing a good mood points to how much our group cares about this situation and I believe that AccuGroove should be flattered that we think enough of their product to spend seven pages caring about this situation. Replace AccuGroove with Behringer and see if any of us care. I've re-read this whole thread, God help me, and I see a couple of comments that could be taken personally, but the vast majority have stuck to the issue of the Accuswitch. I also agree hearing from the guys at Bergantino and Acme is a positive. I've always wondered why we haven't heard more from them in the past, seems like this is a place they would be interested in checking out. Perhaps in the future we'll be like UL and bass related manufacturers will seek out the coveted LD seal of approval.

[getz out]

Originally posted by way2fat:

I also agree hearing from the guys at Bergantino and Acme is a positive. I've always wondered why we haven't heard more from them in the past, seems like this is a place they would be interested in checking out.

Jim Bergantino posts somewhat regularly on Talkbass.

 

Andy Lewis of Acme is a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to the internet; he's great on the phone but has no interest in getting into this type of world from what I gather. Hell, he's has NEVER advertised his product; it is all word-of-mouth and a handful of magazine reviews. Imagine that?

 

Originally posted by way2fat:

Replace AccuGroove with Behringer and see if any of us care.

I will disagree slightly. While I have made it more than obvious my thoughts on Behringer ( see here ), it is not as if Uli Behringer was on this (and many other) forums personally promoting his product and telling us he was our friend. Honestly, the Accugroove Accuswitch debacle hits a bit closer to home; it is one of our own. I care a bit more.

[Eric VB]

Wow! Curiosity got the better of me when I saw this thing was still Frankensteiningly alive. Little did I know about the monstrousity I'd find within! I won't say more on that here.

 

As for AG, I can't imagine there's anything more to say until AG makes its move.

 

I did, however, find way2fat's last comments about brotherhood and forgiveness moving. I don't know him, but he seems like the kind of guy that would have said the same thing even if he hadn't received a package from AG recently. His tone has been level throughout this thread, despite his misfortune.

[Big Daddy from Motown]

For those of you without a technical background, IT DON'T WORK.

 

For those of you with a technical background, the darn cabinets cost about twice what they are worth anyway.

[Bobby LowTones]

This is way OT but since these have been posted in this thread, I just wanted to set the records straight.

 

Originally posted by way2fat:

My satisfactory resolution has arrived and there is thunder on the farm again ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, baby. BTW, I recently came across an article from a few years back about a costly mistake made by NASA on one of their programs. It seems that some degreed engineers forgot to convert their calculations to metric figures. I mention this by way of noting that very smart people can make very elementary mistakes, even rocket scientists.

Originally posted by jeremy c:

That metric mistake was made on the Hubble Space Telescope.

 

I wonder how much it cost to fix it.

Hubble Telescope problem:

When Hubble's mirror was being polished to the right shape, the device used to test its curvature called a null corrector had been made to the wrong specifications. Thus, when the null corrector showed that the Hubble's mirror was as close to perfect as it could be, it was actually ever so slightly (off by 1/50 of a human hair!) the wrong shape. $8,000,000 to fix it with a corrective lens added in the light path.

 

The English/Metric error:

Mars Explorer was set to orbit the planet and study the chemical properties of the Martian atmosphere when it flew too close to Mars due to an error in the thrust calculations, and it burnt up. The team from Lockheed Martin used acceleration data in pounds of force. NASA assumed the data was actually in metric Newtons, The thrust data for the space craft was off by a factor of 2.5 or more, a $125,000,000 mistake.

 

I apologize for the distraction, we now resume to the original topic.

[davio]

I must apologize yet again guys. I involved myself far more than I had intended to in this thread once again. I have, as Pernax pointed out, distracted this thread from its original point.

 

In some (probably futile) attempt at retaining whatever shred of credibility I may have started with, Pernax, I wasn't trying to come across the way you read my "one liner." I was stating my frustration. I had no new toy. Kids playing and having my throat jumped down are two different things. I didn't stomp my feet and head home, I stayed around and tried to defend my stance.

 

So, unless there is something I missed or unless somebody else wants to find something to argue with me about (please do it via PMs as Pernax suggested), I'll remove myself again from this thread until something new comes up. I promise.

[way2fat]

Too much credit Ric. I would have sold my cab and switched brands. Much as I like mine I doubt there's a huge difference between the Berg and Acmes and AG. I looked hard at The Acmes, but often have to share one circuit with the rest of the band. I went low key with Mark to see if he'd do the right thing without being pressured/threatend. He did, so I'm staying. If I weren't happy with the solution you'd all be hearing about it at length.

[g.]

Accugroove finally removed the ACCUSWITCH references from their website (and presumably removed the Accusedswitch from the production of cabs) and stated there if no where else that those cabs are 4-ohm cabs.

[getz out]

Ignore it and it will go away... ignore it and it will go away...

[getz out]

Someone going to NAMM, please ask the Accugroove booth a "what the" type question.

[g.]

Looks like some people noticed: Accugroove site update, on talkbass