The AccuGroove Situation - I'd like an answer: Anyone else?

[getz out]

Originally posted by davio:

Maury, he wasn't pointing any fingers and he wasn't making an all-inclusive statement. I think it would be hard to say that all or even an overwhelming majority of companies in the music industry conduct business with a high level of integrity. Business people are notorious for doing what they must to succeed and make money.

I'm a business person; so you're saying I lack integrity now? Bite me, davio. That's a complete crap argument and I am personally offended.

 

Originally posted by davio:

As far as accepting responsibility, I have a feeling that those who said Mark is probably acting under the direction of lawyers are correct. If this is the case, they are probably spending a great deal of time, effort and thus money trying to plan out the best way to approach the problem. It seems like it's been a really long time but in all actuality it's been only about a month since this came out and after working for a corporate tax lawyer for 5 years I can understand why it would take this long at the very least to get anything done.

Umm... let me re-quote:

 

It means that you don't pass the buck, but accept the responsibility when things go wrong...

How does your argument have anything to do with the quote from Mark?

[g.]

Evidently some of you have trouble with plain-speaking when religion is invoked. But I think it's fair to examine it as part of the subject. Just as once a lawyer introduces a certain line of questioning or examination in a trial, the other lawyer has a right to later pursue the same.

 

So, I'll say it in another fashion but I won't back down: Mark has introduced his religion into interviews, and posts that were otherwise meant to promote his business. If later that comes back to haunt him, it's not the fault of one who notices it. It is not I the hypocrite, and I really don't think Mark is either. But it is an unfortunate byproduct of bringing religion into business.

 

Others have noted that it sounded a little braggy, a little condescending, and some just think he's a devout guy. I'd actually say this was naive. "God" has been used as a tool before, for wars and political gain. Hopefully we are all mature enough to see what is wrong with that and avoid it in our own approach toward commerce with a wider world, and treat it with the respect it deserves.

[davio]

Maury, you have just as much of a right to be offended by that as you do bass player or musician jokes. Bass players are "notorious" for being slackers that couldn't keep up as a guitarist, can't hold down a job at McD's and live in their mom's basement at age 35. Does that mean that you do? No! It's not a rule, you're not the exception, it's a generally conceived notion that comes from who knows where. These are called stereotypes. Mark's statement was general and could have come from anybody about any industry. The fact of the matter is that business is (in an overly simplified way) about compromises. You either compromise your integrity for the sake of making money or you compromise the money you could make for the sake of your integrity. The statements I made were meant as light-hearted joking and prodding. If you want to take offense to them that's your business as none was meant.

 

My argument has more to do with you attacking his hesitance than at his quote itself. You're implying that you are expecting him to live up to the standards he's laid out for himself (which he may still do) but you keep stating that you're waiting which is clear without narration. You're assuming that because he doesn't jump out and give a press release right off the bat that he's not living up to his word. I was trying to illustrate that there is probably a good reason that he hasn't conformed to your timetable...he has a business to look out for, not just his personal integrity. If he jumped out and apologized for the misunderstanding as soon as this all came out he probably would have made some fatal error in his wording which would be under close scrutiny and it could mean the end of his company. As I rather like his products, I'm willing to wait until they figure out a way to keep his company afloat before passing judgment on his unwillingness to reply to the problem.

 

Should a draw a picture?

[g.]

Yeah, davio, and on the same note perhaps he (or counsel) is pondering what it means to pull the Accuswitch text off his website as well. Because, having built a few sites I know it doesn't take much effort to tweak it right out of there.

[davio]

That point I'll concede, gb. But I hadn't noticed anybody bringing that particular aspect of Mark's advertisement into the discussion as at this point it can only be used for bashing him. We all realize that he screwed up (both with the AccuSwitch and with advertising himself as God's gift to the bass cab industry) but can we just sit tight and wait for him to finally pull an answer out of his arse before going to town?

[davio]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Yeah, davio, and on the same note perhaps he (or counsel) is pondering what it means to pull the Accuswitch text off his website as well. Because, having built a few sites I know it doesn't take much effort to tweak it right out of there.

Understood. However when the website belongs to a company there is a little extra red tape involved. Not only that, but they would want to finalize their "plan of attack" before making the first move (be it ever so slight). I think the literature on their website is a bit further down their list of priorities.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by davio:

Quit bashing the guy and give him the benefit of the doubt until this gets cleared up...

 

I'm less concerned with the AccuSwitch and the repercussions thereof and more appalled by the amount of people who love his work and at least seemed to respect his integrity until it was questioned and immediately turned on him with bared teeth dripping with blood instead of waiting for answers.

 

If you want to play judge, jury and executioner, at least wait until the defense makes its case. Chill out people.

No. From the word go I asked Mark questions about AccuGroove cabs, sceptical that their marketing claims could be true. His relentless insistence that we could 'bet our B-string' on their authenticity, and his persuasive arguments regarding extensive R&D eventually won me over. Lucky I don't have a B-string, because it was all marketing hype.

 

All the evidence points to these cabs sounding great. However their specs point to these cabs sounding very different from how they do. Lets investigate the evidence:

 

The woofer and subwoofer are running in parallel - not a true 4-way design.

 

The midrange and tweeter are both protected by a first order crossover which isn't connected to the woofers - again not a true 4-way design, more like a simple old-skool 15"+12" bass cab, with a midrange and tweeter box stuck on top. Maybe someone should try a Kustom 2x15" with a Yamaha NS10 on top and see how similar it sounds?

 

The older cabs (and BD models currently) have rheostats to attenuate the mid and tweeter. Like the 1000W power handling claim for the 'crossover', the claim that the rheostats are far better than the cheap L-pads that everyone else uses is rubbish. Why? Because the rheostats increase the impedance of the mid and tweeter and thus lower the crossover frequency, changing the sound of the cab. Really audiophile.

 

The ports are noisy due to right angle boundaries and 'firing' through the front screen. But AccuGroove told us front porting sounds better, so it must be so.

 

AccuGroove has done something very cunning - they've created a fat old-skool sounding range of cabs which thus appeal to most bassists, they've added a midrange and tweeter on top connected by a very simple circuit to catch all those that like some top-end, and they've ticked every marketing box possible: Multi-way design claims, fancy crossover claims, front-porting, amazing efficiency and LF response claims, 'Audiophile on Steroids' claims.

 

One notable bass rig tester/owner, Tom Bowlus on TB, has commented has commented that AccuGroove cabs sound thick and fat wherever you play on the neck. So why's that then, surely the tone should change as what/where you're playing changes? Maybe it's because when you play up high you've got the noisy ports, the two woofers, and the midrange contributing to midrange output.

Loud? Yes.

Fat? Yes.

Accurate? 4 different sources with resulting phase distortions, resonances and chuffing - what do you think?

Audiophile? I have a hat but I don't think I'll be eating it any time soon.

 

Alex

[alexclaber]

And whilst I'm on the warpath, consider this:

 

The impedance plot shows the tuning frequency of the El Whappo to be ~40Hz. Below the tuning frequency the output diminishes at 24dB/octave (because that's what ported cabs do - fact).

 

Even if the cab is flat at the tuning frequency, that inevitable 24dB/oct roll-off puts 35Hz at closer to -6dB and 29Hz more like -12dB. And I doubt it's quite that hopeful.

 

AccuGroove claim that the El Whappo is -3dB @ 35Hz and -6dB @ 29Hz. Spot the difference?

 

Splitting hairs? Maybe, but I recall being told that AccuGroove sent their cabs to a professional audio lab for independent testing. I presume they didn't like the results and decided to make some up themselves.

 

Alex

[way2fat]

I don't feel that I've been hoodwinked by false specifications because I don't pay much attention to specifications. Rather, I bought my cab sight unheard, because of the reaction of guys like JeremyC and Wally Malone and Adrian Garcia. I let their ears be my guide. In fact I told Mark when he thanked me for my order that he could thank Jeremy et al. Mark has, as I mentioned, offered to sell me a Stewart at his cost, an offer I will politely decline since my position is that had I known I was buying a 4 Ohm cab, I would have chosen a different amp to begin with.

[getz out]

Originally posted by davio:

Maury, you have just as much of a right to be offended by that as you do bass player or musician jokes. Bass players are "notorious" for being slackers that couldn't keep up as a guitarist, can't hold down a job at McD's and live in their mom's basement at age 35. Does that mean that you do? No! It's not a rule, you're not the exception, it's a generally conceived notion that comes from who knows where. These are called stereotypes. Mark's statement was general and could have come from anybody about any industry. The fact of the matter is that business is (in an overly simplified way) about compromises. You either compromise your integrity for the sake of making money or you compromise the money you could make for the sake of your integrity. The statements I made were meant as light-hearted joking and prodding. If you want to take offense to them that's your business as none was meant.

 

My argument has more to do with you attacking his hesitance than at his quote itself. You're implying that you are expecting him to live up to the standards he's laid out for himself (which he may still do) but you keep stating that you're waiting which is clear without narration. You're assuming that because he doesn't jump out and give a press release right off the bat that he's not living up to his word. I was trying to illustrate that there is probably a good reason that he hasn't conformed to your timetable...he has a business to look out for, not just his personal integrity. If he jumped out and apologized for the misunderstanding as soon as this all came out he probably would have made some fatal error in his wording which would be under close scrutiny and it could mean the end of his company. As I rather like his products, I'm willing to wait until they figure out a way to keep his company afloat before passing judgment on his unwillingness to reply to the problem.

Who says you have to compromise your integrity? Where are you getting your information? Where are you drawing your conclusions?

 

I don't do it in my line of work. I'm not the exception.

 

Obviously, if you adhere to your logic above, you would be willing to compromise your integrity to get the job done. Knowing this, I wouldn't do business with you. I wouldn't ebay with you. I wouldn't be in a band with you.

 

You are painting the business community with a wide brush based on your ignorant and inexperienced conclusions. Just as Mark did in that interview, you have accused a population of lacking integrity without giving specific examples.

[Gruuve]

In my experience, some businesses operate under strict ethical guidelines (some even take serious action if those guidelines are violated), and some businesses do what they have to do to make money, even if it's being dishonest. Needless to say, the businesses that adhere to a code of ethics survive and prosper over the long term. The businesses who don't typically have lots of close calls, or cease to exist at some point. To be a successful business long term, you have to build engaged customers...ones who trust you and are even willing to recommend you to other businesses. You don't build that kind of engaged customer by being dishonest in your business dealings.

 

I work in tech sales, and believe me, it can be quite a struggle to keep everything on the level of absolutely honesty all the time, especially in the face of fierce competition. However, I keep it on this level every single day, and so do the other 360K people whom I work with every day. If they don't, they have to find somewhere else to work. The company I work for is doing well, continues to grow and engage customers, and has done this for most of it's many decades of year existence.

 

That said, I have worked for one company that I was at some times asked to lie. I refused..."if you want me to lie, don't put me in front of the client". Interestingly enough, this particular company has dwiddled down to a skeleton staff. I'm glad I'm not there anymore...it was almost embarrassing to be an employee of that particular organization.

 

But here's the kicker: companies don't lie...people lie. A company's image is made up of the people who own and work at it. The company's personality is a reflection on the owner, mgmt team, and people who work there.

 

Dave

[getz out]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

"if you want me to lie, don't put me in front of the client"

I've used the same line, Dave.

[getz out]

From another forum, from Corey of Rock City Guitars in Boston:

 

Since we're on the subject of dismissing A.G. claims, my favorite comes from the Low Down Lowdown (Bass Player site). I'm trying to find it again so I can copy it here, but Mark Wright states..."We tested 1200 drivers from 6 different countries before we found something that we were satisfied with".

 

Funny......the Tri 112 that I replaced the 12" in TWICE for a customer, was an Eminence with it's label spray painted black. Both woofers were the same, and they even came in the blue, "off the shelf" Eminence box! Seems like someone did ALOT of traveling only to find woofers in Kentucky!

 

Corey

Interesting, but not damning by any means. Eminence makes nice drivers, but some feel Mark implied he had a very unique set of drivers in the thread we referenced earlier...

[davio]

My apologies. I'll drop the issue of business ethics because I can see it's a touchy subject here and it wasn't my intent to argue it in the first place. I seem to have gotten far away from my original plan. On top of that, regardless of what I think I know, I am still merely a college student and can't pretend to have a unique insight into the business world.

 

My initial intentions were to try and point out that people seem to be getting very personal about the AG issue prematurely from my POV. On one battle field people are attacking AG for baseless claims but on the other Mark Write is being personally attacked. Let me try to clarify. Tearing up AG's name is something that can be expected and I can't fault anyone for it...after the company tries to defend itself. It's the natural flow of things. Granted, we have been waiting a month now but as I tried to point out, I'd imagine a month isn't that much to a company when faced with a crisis like this. Once we hear AG's side of this, have at it. I have no qualm with this.

 

What was really starting to bother me were the personal attacks on Mark. I know it's hard to separate a person from a company as an entity when the company is that small but Mark is still a member of this community and I hope he remains one after the dust settles. The statements and claims he has made are him speaking for the company and, as hard as he may have tried to make it seem more like a guy selling his stuff to other guys, it's still a company. I've never heard anyone speak so severely of the makers of Eden cabs for having practically fictional specs.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Mark Write and AccuGroove should remain separate entities for our purposes regardless of how hard he's tried to combat that notion. From what I've gathered, he was a bass player that made a good cab and ended up making a business out of it. I haven't heard anything about him being a gifted businessman, electrician or physicist. He's a layman trying to fill those roles in a small business. He's made some seemingly stupid decisions but I think it should be his company that suffers from it...not him personally (barring any financial loss that may come of this).

 

I hope that can clear the air a bit. Sorry I started an entirely separate argument or two in the process but I think this finally speaks my mind.

[g.]

I've never heard anyone speak so severely of the makers of Eden cabs for having practically fictional specs.

Practically? You have a gift for understatement. Believe me, in the past I named names and pointed at proofs. It brought out a lot of animosity. It showed who was who too.

[Gruuve]

Davio:

 

I understand your point. However, I don't believe you CAN seperate Mark Wright from AccuGroove...Mark Wright IS AccuGroove, in a nutshell. AccuGroove the company didn't misrepresent this AccuSwitch nor anything else...Mark Wright misrepresented this gadgetry. Particularly with a small company, the company's personality IS the founder's personality.

 

I've said this once before...it's all about people. Companies don't design, build, sell, and buy products...people do. This is true whether you're talking a two-person business or a business with 360K employees...the people are the face of the business.

 

We can conjecture about what might be technical possibilities all day long. However, the evidence doesn't support that Mark has discovered how to change the laws of physics. The evidence supports that Mark Wright misrepresented his products. That's what the evidence supports...if there's evidence to the contrary, then Mark needs to bring it to the table. He hasn't so far. He hasn't commented at all. That to me is an indication that he has no evidence to the contrary. Lawyers may have instructed him to not make any comment, but there's nothing to prevent him from making one simple post: "I have an answer, and I will share it with you, but I cannot do that at the moment." I think that he won't do that because he doesn't have an answer that is sufficient.

 

He hasn't removed the AccuSwitch advertisements in BP nor the AccuSwitch blurbs on his site. He won't do that anytime soon...that would be public admission that the AccuSwitch was fakery.

 

I've never met Mark in person (we've had a PM or two). If I ever meet him in person, I'll treat him with the same respect that I would treat anyone else. I won't bring the AccuSwitch topic up. If Mark brought the AccuSwitch topic up, I would say to his face the same thing that I say here.

 

In the end, we're all human, and we all make mistakes (which this was not), and we all make bad choices (which this was).

 

And I don't think I'd call the observations here about Mark and his company "bashing". If I launched a company and then made several bad choices like this, then I would fully expect people to call my bluff and offer up heavy servings of criticism. I would feel like there's not really much I could say since I deserved it.

 

Now, if Mark has something to say, some explanation to offer, I'm all ears. If he wants us to believe what he says, then he has to give us something believable. If the AccuSwitch is indeed the physics-bending anti-matter blackhole-in-a-capacitor of the bass muses, then I will humbly eat everything that I've said. I don't see having to eat anything, based on the evidence at this point.

 

This is all MHO, of course.

 

Dave

[davio]

I'll bend my pride at the waist and humbly bow out of this infraction as I've seen my points shot down one by one. My thanks to Mr. Sisk for presenting his argument with a levelheaded perspective I can identify with.

 

I will say, though, that when all is said and done I'm not sure if all this will dissuade me from buying AccuGroove products. Maybe I'll just buy used so I'm not actively supporting the company if everyone's accusations are confirmed.

[way2fat]

Personally, I think AG will do the right thing when they get their legal ducks in a row. I imagine that they want to address the issues at one setting and make a new beginning from there. It's been stated that the AG specs aren't as claimed, with a sort of unspoken subtext that the cabinets aren't as great as claimed. I suppose that being a weekend warrior I could be fooled into thinking that this is the best sounding cab I've listened to. Heck I spent $1300, of course I want to believe that. Now, can somebody explain how seasoned professionals like Jeremy and Wally and Adrian and Steve Lawson, guys that have been gigging steadily for decades, are being fooled by optimistic specs?

If I were AG's marketing dude, I think I'd chuck the specs and appeal to the ears. Like: "Bill Dickens can play whatever cabinet he wants to. He wants to play ours."

[g.]

way2fat: Personally, I think AG will do the right thing when they get their legal ducks in a row. I imagine that they want to address the issues at one setting and make a new beginning from there.

Here's to hope.

 

It's been stated that the AG specs aren't as claimed, with a sort of unspoken subtext that the cabinets aren't as great as claimed.

Surely not in my case, in any post I've posted.

 

Now, can somebody explain how seasoned professionals like Jeremy and Wally and Adrian and Steve Lawson, guys that have been gigging steadily for decades, are being fooled by optimistic specs?

You're jumpng the tracks. That can just be confusing. Don't interchange the sound of the cabs with talk of the specs. Those guys bought because they heard good word of mouth or heard the cabs. I doubt the specs were their nexus.

 

Now we'll get to the next part: there probably have not been that many honest spec sheets ever in the bass guitar sector, so it's entirwely possible that a working professional has never been able to see a REAL HONEST spec sheet for a career of decades, and may not understand the parameters enough to know or care anyway.

 

It's likely that it was never too important to most players who could pretty much hear what they needed to hear through any cab. Then the Five-string came along and things began to change. And with the advent on ERB it's really accelerated. Accugroove really rode in on the wave of ERBers.

[g.]

I take back part of what I said there, Way2fat. Here and there ther have been some honest spec sheets, referenced figures etc. But since the playing field is not level as it is in the SR industry you really can't depend on specs to tell you much.

[Gruuve]

Just to be clear...I don't think anyone has yet said that the cabs don't sound great. If that weren't the case, then no one would actually buy such an expensive. I've never heard them, but I have absolutely no doubt they sound great.

 

I think everyone could even live with loosely reported specs. As noted, we have for decades already. However, where I draw the line is a feature like the AccuSwitch that can actually cause damage to your other gear if you believe the claim and use it. That's where I personally draw the line.

 

Dave

[g.]

Yep, in my book the issue is the Accuswitch.

[jeremy c]

I have never listened to specs.

 

I listen to the sound coming out of speaker cabinets. I hear what I sound like and I've heard what Steve Lawson sounds like and I heard what Donald Patterson of the Peter White Band sounded like when he borrowed my gear.

 

Other speaker cabinets I have used have been SWR, Acoustic, Yamaha, Ampeg, GK, Boogie, Bag End, and various homemade cabinets. Speakers have been Eminence, Jensen, various JBL models, Altec Lansing, Electrovoice and whatever else was in the various cabinets I've used.

 

Anyone is welcome to come over to my house and try out my AccuGroove cabinets.

 

Please note that my post does not mention anything about technology, only about what I hear.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by way2fat:

Now, can somebody explain how seasoned professionals like Jeremy and Wally and Adrian and Steve Lawson, guys that have been gigging steadily for decades, are being fooled by optimistic specs?

Me! Me!

 

These guys are all far better musicians and bass players than me, and can do scary things like transcribe full orchestrations without an instrument in sight. However being able to identify notes, chords, harmonies etc is not the same as being able to ascertain the balance of frequencies from a speaker cab.

 

Too frequently I read about a note being 'a certain frequency' and comments like 'how do you hear a 15.44Hz note?' When we talk about low B being ~31Hz, all we're talking about is the fundamental of the note. The second harmonic (or first overtone) is ~62Hz, the third 93Hz, fourth 124Hz, fifth 155Hz, sixth 186Hz, seventh 217Hz, eighth 248Hz, ninth 279Hz, tenth 310Hz, eleventh 314Hz, and so on. And a fresh s/s roundwound on a quality bass is going to put out all those frequencies when you pluck the open B, and then some. And in most basses the second harmonic will actually be louder than the fundamental.

 

So take the El Whappo. Our investigations suggest that its F3 is around 50-60Hz, and its F10 is around 35Hz. That means when you pluck an open B, you're going to hear the third harmonic and upwards at full volume, the LOUD second harmonic at close to that, and the fundamental is going to be pretty hard to detect.

 

Compare this to an Eden or SWR 4x10". Compare this to an Ampeg 8x10". The El Whappo is putting out more at the second harmonic than any of these cabs. But that doesn't mean the fundamental is there.

 

Compare this to an Acme Low-B or any pro-audio subwoofer. What, you've never bothered, you've only played through standard bass cabs? Oh, is that because you're a pro musician, you're too busy playing music to phaff about testing specs or sitting in anechoic chambers seeing what a low B fundamental really sounds like? Good for you - go make music, far more rewarding! But watch out for being held as golden eared arbiters of sound as well as notes...

 

Alex

[g.]

Yep (though this is aside from the central topic, the Accuswitch), I've met a lot of players who couldn't tell 40 Hz from 120, a fundamental from a fig.

[g.]

Yep (though this is aside from the central topic, the Accuswitch), I've met a lot of players who couldn't tell 40 Hz from 120, a fundamental from a fig.

[jeremy c]

Oops, sorry didn't mean to post here.

 

Are we talking about figs?

 

Or comparing apples to oranges?

[g.]

That's been my central premise in that other thread, right up to talking about future cyber technologies for musicians ; }

[alexclaber]

I came pretty close to buying a Whappo Jr last year. As you may have noticed, I'm the other side of the pond and thus the choice of cabs is limited and the costs are significantly higher. I PM'd Mark with a few questions:

 

"For some awful reason I appear to be getting infected by GAS, namely for that remarkably light and loud Whappo Jr of yours.

 

Just trying to get a feel for how it'll respond in a gig environment in terms of sound dispersion and was thus wondering what the crossover frequencies are between each driver. Also I've noticed that it's marginally less sensitive than the 210L - at high volume does the slightly higher power handling and greater LF response (more excursion*surface area?) make up for this? I have quite a lot of power available - 550W @ 8 ohms, 900W @ 4 ohms, 2000W @ 8 ohms bridged, 3000W @ 4 ohms bridged - what would you use?"

 

And the pertinent points from his very friendly and enthusiastic response:

 

"Regarding the Whappo Jr.; the only cabinet on the planet that sounds better is the El Whappoperiod. It would be a very wise investment & would be perfect for any style of playing in any venue.

 

We are very conservative on our specs, VERY conservative."

 

I don't know about you, but for someone to create specs out of thin air and then claim they're VERY conservative, whilst encouraging me to spend over $2000 on a very wise investment, f%$#s me right off. I'm sorry, but it really does.

 

To me the situation is not just the AccuSwitch, but it's the piles of AccuTrash specs that have been bandied about over the past few years. I've never questioned other cab makers about their specs as it's been pretty obvious that they were falsified. But AccuGroove have been subjected to my pointed questions and their repeated persuasive comments (despite a lack of supportive evidence) managed to win me over. Am I naive?

 

I'm an engineer by training. I'm a salesman by career. I'm an audiophile and hi-fi enthusiast. If they could bullshit me so effectively, what about everyone else?

 

Jesus...

 

Alex

[getz out]

Wow, I haven't seen Alex this worked up since Edendude told him he must like eating sh*t.

 

FECES THREAD