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Disturbing, fellow comrades?


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Chip, It is obvious that we simply have no basis for communication. By my way of thinking, you are having paranoid delusions. You would not even be able to express your anti-government rants under most of the world's governments. Remember also that "the government" is compose of people very similar to you and me who are doing it as a job and love their families and liberty as much as you do. Think whatever you want. Luckily the vast majority of Americans agrees with me on this. That doesn't make it *right* but it makes me glad that most peoiple are reasonable. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever had a job ? I just have the impression that I am speaking to a 17 year-old who sits in his parents basement on the computer griping about "the government". Progfusion: [quote]....You might think praying 5 times a day is wrong, but you can never get into the mindset of a person in Egypt or Afghanistan. Its the same reason why I cannot understand why or how my grandmother gets up at 4 every morning to walk 2 miles to the temple on a bum leg, ......[/quote]One big discrepancy in your logic: Your grandmother walks *voluntarily*. :) If you wish to understand how abjectly evil Islam is, don't believe me.....Just read the Quran.
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LeiDeLi: Chip McDonald is one of the most [b]logical[/b] people I have ever known. All your statements about his ability to communicate and his maturity are blatantly false. I think when people start resorting to personal attacks the argument is over.
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Wewus: [quote]Don't take this the wrong way,...[/quote]I am sincerely trying to understand how an individual can maintain such inaccurate and slightly paranoid views about "the government". That is why I wonder if he has ever had a job, etc. I wasn't really trying for an *insult*. After all, if he were a 17 year old, living in his parents basement, that WOULD explain how he has developed paranoid views, based on visions from reruns of "The Matrix" and various video games, with no basis in objective reality or experience with "the government" in society. Your defense of him is well taken.
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[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]I am sincerely trying to understand how an individual can maintain such inaccurate and slightly paranoid views about "the government".[/b][/quote]Gee LeiDeLi, could it have anything to do with the fact that the US Government has, in the past: [list] [*]purposefully dosed US citizens with LSD without their knowledge to see “how they would react?” [*]purposefully exposed US citizens to high levels of radiation without their knowledge or consent in order to see what the effects would be? [*]purposefully lied to inmates about being treated for syphilis so they could study the progress of the disease? [*]enabled the flow of drugs into the US so as to finance terrorists/revolutionaries (pick your side) in South America? [*]used the FBI and foreign intelligence agencies to spy on its own citizens? [/list] Naw, wouldn’t have anything to do with those things, would it? :D You say you have a solid grasp of reality, but refer to Islam as “abject evil.” O-tay. :rolleyes: The fact that you continue to make assertions about other people’s mental health when you have never met them, and the fact that you also intuited that Chip was a 17-year old tells me a lot about your grasp of reality.
Go tell someone you love that you love them.
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[quote]....the fact that you also intuited that Chip was a 17-year old tells me a lot about your grasp of reality. [/quote]OK. A 25-year old who lives in his parents' basement. Just joking. Chip is probably a real nice guy. I am sorry I went down this road. I do think he and you are paranoid though. You cite some instances that we would all agree were abuses. Remember, though, that the discussion started over simply reporting suspicious behavior. That is not any kind of an abuse. It is exactly what every law enforcement agency requests that citizens do in order to HELP enforce all our rights. If there are abuses, I agree they should be stopped. I am not willing to assume that everypone in "the government" is a monster out to perform evil. They are good people, trying to do their job...hopefully with our help, not obstruction and resentment. Peace,
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This is a very good debate. Good points on both sides. I am like many Americans divided on the issue. I do think you guys do need to be able to walk away and say I disagree but we can still be friends. LeiDeli: Do not under any circumstances say to Chip: "It sure must suck to be you".
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[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b]Chip, It is obvious that we simply have no basis for communication. By my way of thinking, you are having paranoid delusions. You would not even be able to express your anti-government rants under most of the world's governments. Remember also that "the government" is compose of people very similar to you and me who are doing it as a job and love their families and liberty as much as you do. Think whatever you want. Luckily the vast majority of Americans agrees with me on this. That doesn't make it *right* but it makes me glad that most peoiple are reasonable. Don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever had a job ? I just have the impression that I am speaking to a 17 year-old who sits in his parents basement on the computer griping about "the government". Progfusion: [quote]....You might think praying 5 times a day is wrong, but you can never get into the mindset of a person in Egypt or Afghanistan. Its the same reason why I cannot understand why or how my grandmother gets up at 4 every morning to walk 2 miles to the temple on a bum leg, ......[/quote]One big discrepancy in your logic: Your grandmother walks *voluntarily*. :) If you wish to understand how abjectly evil Islam is, don't believe me.....Just read the Quran.[/b][/quote]Lei I was brought up in a country with over 100 million muslims, so I know a LOT of them. Most of the ones I know spent their teenage years with shoulder length hair listening to Iron maiden songs with good ole agnostics like me, but still prayed 5 times a day. Yes, I also think the Koran is scary, but so is the Bible (both scare the hell out of me) .. anyway I don't want to go down that path. I am making a judgement here, but anyone making blanket statements like you did there is, in my books at least, a bit of a bigot. Anyway, I am out of this one. Prog
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LeiDeLi, There are some concepts that it appears you are missing that are fundamental to a working democracy. 1. A working democracy ASSUMES THE WORST of it's leaders and provides enough checks and balances that should the worst scoundrel that ever walked the face of this planet come to power, he would be limited in the damage he could do to the liberties of the citizens. Note I am not saying the George Bush is such a scoundrel. Communism (and socialism to a lesser degree) assumes you have wise benevolent leaders to centrally plan the economy, food production, eduction etc etc. Obviously, history has demonstrated a shortage of wise benevolent leaders. It takes a certain amount of guile to rise to the top in any system. Our system assumes our leaders are absolute bastards. 2. The only way to ensure that your civil rights are is to ensure that everyone's liberty is fully protected. You are probably correct that naturally born US citizens (at least the white ones) or long time naturalized (white) US citizens have little to fear from a program like TIPS. In the US, the right to due process, protection from wrongful search and seizure and freedom of assembly, religion and speech do not just apply to naturally born or naturalized US citizens, they apply to everyone - even legal resident aliens or permanent residents of Arab descent. The right to due process even applies to illegal aliens (think about it, refugees and assylum seekers are by nature illegal aliens). It's not like we have a long tradition of tolerance and understanding towards people who look a bit different here. Only 40 years ago, African American (naturally born US citizens) couldn't sit in the front seats of buses or use the same public restrooms as whites. Only 60 years ago we locked up Japanese Americans (many of them naturally born US citizens) solely because of their race. When you start to erode the rights of anyone in society, everyone becomes less free. Do you honestly think a program like TIPS would NEVER be used to harrass Blacks, Latinos, Asian or Arabs who move into upper class white neighborhoods? Like this hasn't been done before?
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
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So far: By executive order, the Administration may identify *anyone* as an "enemy combatant" and have them detained indefinitely without recourse to our legal system. This provision is also contained in the Patriot Act. There now exists a Federal mechanism for citizens to anonymously accuse fellow citizens of suspicious activities. Tired of the neighbor with that won't keep his dog leashed? Put some fertilizer and oil in his backyard, and call TIPS.... It's virtually guaranteed that someone, somewhere, will abuse these tools. Now toss in a President & VP whose path to power was questionable, and have shown a proclivity for secrecy (way before 9/11). It's not unreasonable to have some trepidation about where this is heading.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

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[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]I do think he and you are paranoid though.[/b][/quote]Still making assertions about other people’s mental health when you have not met them, eh? :rolleyes: I find it odd that you do not address the points made in posts, but continue to make personal attacks.
Go tell someone you love that you love them.
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LeiDeLi makes some good points as does Chip. Chip made a statement (at least I think you did, Chip)that rings profoundly true for me(sadly). Paraphrasing.... Bin Laden will have destroyed our democracy if people's rights are taken away in order to combat Bin Laden. I think those are the horns of our dilemma. It's not easy to choose between defending our country and defending our way of life. I read in an interview with Bin Laden that he believed that defeating America would be easier than defeating Russia, due the 'fragility of America'. I disagree. (I really do believe this) I have lived in three democracies and personally know of no more resilient people or system to confront such tough choices and negotiate between them. These types of conversations are a part of that resilience. Peace, Jerry
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Actually, I've had some experience with the TIPS program that I'd like to share. It was a couple weeks ago, around 3 AM. I heard some shouting outside, and looked out my window. There were two men acting suspiciously, and banging on my neighbor's door. One of the "terrorists" lifted up his #3 jersey to reveal a handgun in his waistband. They were calling out their comrade's name, "Tawanna!" and using the apparent code name "My Wife," which I had at first mistaken as a John Entwhistle reference. (What does the Taliban know about the Who? Nah, must be a code name.) Anyway, after several minutes of yelling things like "Where's my wife, motherfucker?!?" they finally left. And get this: they were listening to (whisper) RAP music. I think the causal relationship speaks for itself. So I called the TIP hotline. It was just like this thing they had when I worked for MegaConGlom Inc. (one of the world's largest distributors of subsidiaries). You call up a number, report your business, some minimum-wage-earning customer service rep who is completely incapable of doing anything other than dutifully noting your "situation," does in fact note your "situation" into the database, and there you go. Nothing actually happens, of course. But it's all duly noted. So after the fact, they can look back and scramble to cover up and obscure the e-trail, denying who fucked up and how. Like the post 9/11 FBI debacle. A nationwide TIPS hotline means a huge national data dump--maybe they should put it in Yucca Mountain. Some lucky people will have to slog through the mountain of shit to figure out what it all means. Remember that the national government is now modeled after corporate America, so expect lots of banners, PR programs, and other things like TIPS that are designed to beef up morale, make everyone think things are being adressed, and that profits are way, way up. (Pay no attention to that CEO behind the curtain selling half his portfolio; keep buying that company stock. What are you, disloyal? Un-American?) [Authoritative Announcer Voice] This TIPS line shows you, America, that we're listening. We're responding. We're taking action. [Now picture Dr. Frasier Crane behind the microphone, saying to his caller, "I'm listening," and then being completely preoccupied and not hearing a word the caller's saying.] "People say America is too cynical. I say America isn't cynical enough." Bill Maher, "Be More Cynical"
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[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] Remember also that "the government" is compose of people very similar to you and me who are doing it as a job and love their families and liberty as much as you do. [/b][/quote]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - When ALL the most powerful public servants in the land are all multi-millionaires with scandalous financial backgrounds, and can somehow not be held accountable like an average citizen you allow them the cloak of "Average Joe" ? Give me a break - C'mon, there are some very good areas for debate here, this is not one of them.
Woof!
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While Chip may be stating his viewpoint rather emphatically (not that there's anything wrong with that), he is definitely NOT paranoid or overstating the importance or severity of TIPS or the Patriot Act. This is not paranoid. This is not delusional. Historically, after acts of war, etc., the U.S. has typically re-written the Constitution and imposed severe limitations on certain aspects of its citizen's freedoms. After a while, this has been relaxed. It's happening again, and there is plenty of reason to be concerned, particularly if one is in a certain "target group" -- in this case, Arab-Americans, Muslims, etc. Chip is not ranting. What he is saying is extremely real and potentially frightening. Those of you arguing vehemently against him might do well to relax a little and strongly consider what he is saying instead of digging your heels in. For related topics, please do a search on the following: Japanese internment camps, Los Angeles Police Department, POTO (Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance) and India Check out these links, which deal with loss of freedom for Americans, the Patriot Act, and other things. The second article also covers a little bit of previous loss of freedoms in the U.S. after wars. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/02/new-goldin.php http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/newworld/media-pat2.html
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Super 8 wrote: "I'm tired of hearing all the conspiracy stories about President Bush. All of it being put together by a bunch of pissed off liberals." Hey, isn't that a conspiracy in itself?
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[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]....accepted and expected part of Islam. [/quote]That's right. Abject evil. What point were you trying to make ?[/b][/quote]???? Yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
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[quote]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - When ALL the most powerful public servants in the land are all multi-millionaires with scandalous financial backgrounds, and can somehow not be held accountable like an average citizen you allow them the cloak of "Average Joe" ? [/quote]They are all elected officials. Are you saying that you don't support the idea of democracy ? They are accountable to those of us who vote. [quote]???? Yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]That was my reaction when I read the Quran also ! Glad you agree.
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[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - When ALL the most powerful public servants in the land are all multi-millionaires with scandalous financial backgrounds, and can somehow not be held accountable like an average citizen you allow them the cloak of "Average Joe" ? [/quote]They are all elected officials. Are you saying that you don't support the idea of democracy ? They are accountable to those of us who vote. [/b][/quote]Ding! Ding! Ding!
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[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - When ALL the most powerful public servants in the land are all multi-millionaires with scandalous financial backgrounds, and can somehow not be held accountable like an average citizen you allow them the cloak of "Average Joe" ? [/quote]They are all elected officials. Are you saying that you don't support the idea of democracy ? They are accaontable to those of us who vote.[/b][/quote]( ahem, cough, cough) Bush and Cheney were not elected, thereby the appointments made by them are not democratically elected as well - it seems they have the problem with democracy. You inadvertantly bring to the table thepoint of the elections only catering to wealthy candidates, though.
Woof!
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[quote]Originally posted by progfusion74: [b]Lei I was brought up in a country with over 100 million muslims, so I know a LOT of them. Most of the ones I know spent their teenage years with shoulder length hair listening to Iron maiden songs with good ole agnostics like me, but still prayed 5 times a day. [/b][/quote]Prog, there's only a handful of countries that would fit that....India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, right? We got a lot in common. As a teenager in Singapore the bass player and drummer I played with were Malay Muslims. Awesome people both of them. Strong people values. Natural musicians too. They might have been crazy about western music, but they never broke a Ramadan daytime fast. I used to wait to get invited to their homes during Ramadan, glutton that I was. The food was stupendous. I amazed me that someone would cook like that while on their fast. :D :D Jerry
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[quote]Originally posted by Dogfur: [b] Bush and Cheney were not elected, thereby the appointments made by them are not democratically elected as well - it seems they have the problem with democracy. You inadvertantly bring to the table thepoint of the elections only catering to wealthy candidates, though.[/b][/quote]That's a valid issue for many in this community. If those two don't serve us well .... they will be out in just over two years and in a few months there will be more democratic legislators. The power IS seperated between lots of people in Washington. It is always shifting. Here is an article describing the recent shift of power to the legislature: http://www.msnbc.com/news/781623.asp?0dm=N21IN Let's not forget the millions of career employees who are "the government" as well. Treating "the government" as monolithic serves no useful purpose IMO. We hold the reins but....sometimes we who hold the reins are fascinated by the horse's strong muscles. Regards, Jerry
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[quote]By executive order, the Administration may identify *anyone* as an "enemy combatant" and have them detained indefinitely without recourse to our legal system.[/quote]As an example of this abuse of power, we find out that our evil legal system won't even let a detainee, who is not an American citizen, plead guilty of the crimes he wants to admit to ! Doesn't he have a legal right to plead guilty ! http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/07/18/moussaoui.hearing/index.html This is an egregious violation of his civil liberties. :)
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[quote]Originally posted by Dogfur: [b]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - [/b][/quote]Then I guess we all become anarchists? The system is fucked. The elected (or not) officials are completely corrupt. There is no hope. We can't trust anyone. Is that the point I'm supposed to concede here? How sad. :cry:

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[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Dogfur: [b]Ding, Ding, Ding!!! The bullshit meter goes off! I don't think you, or "the government" actually believe this - [/b][/quote]Then I guess we all become anarchists? The system is fucked. The elected (or not) officials are completely corrupt. There is no hope. We can't trust anyone. Is that the point I'm supposed to concede here? How sad. :cry: [/b][/quote]No, Super 8, the point is YOU ARE the hope, and I trust YOU, and only rational thinking and evaluation of facts by US can change the fucked system. Let's face it - the system's broken...and yes, for the most part completely corrupt...That being said, how can we fix it while we still can? Certainly not through conceding we've lost to corruption of a financially motivated political system. I wish I had some kind of witty and enlightened answer to provide... I guess the best I can do is "hold your reps accountable and vote for the guy with the least amount of advertisement".
Woof!
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even more http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
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I think that if you see something suspicious, you should just keep it to yourself. Then, if a terror attack or crime happens, you can think "Whew ! Glad I didn't get involved in THAT !" Also, if you happen to see a terrorist walking by you, carrying a load of dynamite wrapped around his waist, I think it is best to just keep walking, and AVOID EYE CONTACT ! :freak:
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