Disturbing, fellow comrades?

[Chip McDonald]

Brought to us by the Homeland Defense Agency: http://www.citizencorps.gov/tips.html " a national reporting system (snip) to report suspicious activity"

[Wewus432]

Originally they were calling it Vigilantes Are Us but went with that other name. Oh fuck man I gotta go, the mailman's looking at me funny.

[DC]

When I was a kid, they had TIP (turn in a pusher). I think they ought to call it TIT (turn in a terrorist). Big Brother, here we come...

[aeon]

Chip, disturbing doesn’t even begin to describe it. Oh well, I guess the terrorists won. They toppled the principles this country was founded on. They have turned American against fellow American. I know enough about the history of civilizations to know that the US is an empire in decline, but f*ck, does Rome have to burn so fast while I live in it? :rolleyes: There is another angle here: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html

[KHAN]

[b]ALL YOUR FREEDOMS ARE BELONG TO US![/b] [img]http://imgfarm.com/images/ap/BUSH_HOMELAND_SECURITY.sff_JSA101_20020716101348.jpg[/img] :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[BP3]

I joined. Now where does Steve Jobs live? ;)

[Tusker]

About three months ago a house further down my street had three large dark unmarked cars drawn up to it at 8 am. People in dark uniforms were standing outside the cars looking towards the house. Of course, we pretended not to notice. (I hoped not to attract any attention, since I am brown skinned and you never know how a nervous FBI agent might react. I had to drive past them several times as I was dropping the kids off before going to work.... I imagined myself being recorded in a log book.) The residents are brown skinned and look like they could be from the middle-east. They have a lovely Saint Bernard dog that my son always runs out to see when they take it for walks. They seem like pleasant, shy people. I know them well enough to say hello to, and talk about the weather but not much more. I'd like to say something positive but it's tough breaking the ice sometimes. Oour neighbour across the street is an Egyptian married to a Texan. They have 4 strapping boys who look like they could be from anywhere. They range from fair blond to brown. To see them all playing basketball together is an awesome sight. We have been concerned for them since September 11th. Particularly the dad. All of the neighbours have rallied round this particular family to provide moral support. Sorry to be rambling again ...... what I meant to say, is that there are going to be lots of people who will need a little bit more support and understanding, in these times. Jerry

[lwilliam]

Wow! Didn't the Nazi's encourage their citizens to turn in suspicous people who might be someone of a non-nationally approved religion? Deja Vu!!!

[LeiDeLi]

Note that when the Feds DON'T catch the bad guys, they are criticized for being inept and not having good human intelligence. When they try to gather information and get good intelligence, they are criticised for "destroying our basic freedoms." Time to realize that to watch people and gather information does not infringe on anyone's rights. It is good to be *wary* of having infringements, but let's not get upset until the abuses *actually* happen. :wave:

[aeon]

[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]Time to realize that to watch people and gather information does not infringe on anyone's rights.[/b][/quote]In a word, bullshit.

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]In a word, bullshit[/quote]Pretty deep thinking. ;)

[aeon]

[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]Pretty deep thinking.[/b][/quote]Likewise. It is attitudes like yours that sent millions of people to gas chambers and killing fields. You’re willing to support the sacrifice of one of your basic rights in return for the illusion of security. Sad. If you will, chew on this for a while: [quote][i]Benjamin Franklin said:[/i] [b]Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.[/b][/quote]

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]Likewise. It is attitudes like yours that sent millions of people to gas chambers and killing fields.[/quote]That is absurd. I have said nothing to imply any of that. If you wish to discuss something rationally, OK...if you wish to continue hurling obsceneties and baseless insults....you reveal your depth of reasoning. If you will notice, what I said was true. There are those who are determined to criticise the government regardless of what they do. If you have a better idea, we would all like to hear it...so far you are just whining about your own paranoid delusions. :)

[BP3]

They should fix the FBI first. About a month ago there was a small blimp flying around my neck of the woods for about three days. It was launched and moored at Freeway Airport in Bowie, MD (also the same airport where one of the 9/11 hijackers took flying lessons). This airport is only 15 miles from DC. We've had blimps around before and I never gave it much thought. That was until it flew over my house about 100 feet above the treetops and moving very slowly. This got my attention. I decided to call the FBI in DC and make them aware of this activity. They forwarded me to the Baltimore field office because I live in Maryland. The woman I talked to in Baltimore was absolutely incompetent. I told her of the blimp and simply suggested that they check on the thing and see if everything was on the up and up. She said "We don't deal with things in the air. You'll have to call Aviation for that.". I asked for a number and she told me to call 411. Useless, absolutely useless. :mad:

[aeon]

[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]That is absurd. I have said nothing to imply any of that.[/b][/quote]This is true, but based on the context of history, it can easily be inferred, and without stretching to do so. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]If you wish to discuss something rationally, OK...if you wish to continue hurling obsceneties and baseless insults....you reveal your depth of reasoning.[/b][/quote]I offer you my apology for the use of the obscenity above, but I have used no personal insult. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]If you will notice, what I said was true.[/b][/quote]Yes, but that does not mean it is right. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]There are those who are determined to criticise the government regardless of what they do.[/b][/quote]Agreed, but so too is it true that there are those who support them regardless of what they do. Each is dangerous in their own way. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]If you have a better idea, we would all like to hear it...so far you are just whining about your own paranoid delusions.[/b][/quote]To start, dismantle this aspect of Homeland Security now. Also, you do little to address in a rational manner what I brought up by calling it whining. What do you think of the history of countries and cultures that have instituted this kind of program in the past, and where it led? Also, do you think that the quote I provided by Mr. Franklin has any merit in this discussion?

[LeiDeLi]

>>>To start, dismantle this aspect of Homeland Security now. You would advocate that people CAN'T call someone to report suspicious activity ? How can that possibly help ? >>>>What do you think of the history of countries and cultures that have instituted this kind of program in the past, and where it led ? Having a security agency that gathers info on suspicious activities and people would basically describe every sovereign nation in history, including the entire history of the USA. It does not BY ITSELF lead to abuse. If you are worried about a specific abuse, we would have to discuss that individually. What exactly are you worried will happen ? Beating with a rubber hose ?....NOW THAT would be an abuse and I would jump up and down with you ! :) [quote] Also, do you think that the quote I provided by Mr. Franklin has any merit in this discussion? [/quote]Ironically, I am a strong gun-rights advocate, and I have used that same quote MANY TIMES ! The problem here is that you have not described any actual loss of liberty...only that you FEAR that it will somehow LEAD to loss of some liberty. At any rate, I really think that there is some gray area between "putting up with an inconvenience" and "losing our liberties". An example would be a weapons search at airports, which is technically a "loss of liberty", but also just a minor inconvenience that I think is justified.

[aeon]

[quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]You would advocate that people CAN'T call someone to report suspicious activity ?[/b][/quote]Not at all. I think it is fine for someone to report another if they feel there is imminent threat of danger to others from the individual so reported. That makes sense...on all manner of grounds, not the least of which is moral. The difference here is this program moves such a choice from being one of conscience or morality to that of legislation. It is the job of a government to protect its own citizens, not to turn them against one another...and to think this program will do anything less is myopic, IMHO. So to sum, I have no problem with citizens taking action. I do have a problem when a government institutionalizes such activity. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]It does not BY ITSELF lead to abuse.[/b][/quote]Of course not! That said, it is specious to argue as such, because you cannot separate the program from the context in which it operates. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]If you are worried about a specific abuse, we would have to discuss that individually.[/b][/quote]That is what I seek to do here...the government, instituting a program where citizens are encouraged to be spies against their fellow citizens...that is a specific abuse. [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]What exactly are you worried will happen ?[/b][/quote]Hmm. Erosion of liberties. The introduction of a further divide among Americans. People’s abuse of the system for personal ends. A government-supported justification for harassment of specific peoples... [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]The problem here is that you have not described any actual loss of liberty...[/b][/quote]What part of losing the ability to trust your fellow American do you not understand? What part of your basic right to privacy do you not grieve the loss of? [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]At any rate, I really think that there is some gray area between "putting up with an inconvenience" and "losing our liberties". An example would be a weapons search at airports, which is technically a "loss of liberty", but also just a minor inconvenience that I think is justified.[/b][/quote]I agree, and I think it is clear from the situation why such a check at an airport is justified. TIPS however, is quite different. What does “suspicious activity” consist of? Isn’t that definition far too broad? [quote][i]LeiDeLi said:[/i] [b]...so far you are just whining about your own paranoid delusions. [/b][/quote]LeiDeLi, I must remind you that you have no knowledge of my state of mental health, or lack thereof, so idle projection and speculation as to that state is both foolish and attacking. Please consider: [quote][b]paranoia[/b] \Par`a*noi"a\, n. (Med.)[i]A chronic form of insanity characterized by very gradual impairment of the intellect, systematized delusion, and usually by delusious of persecution or mandatory delusions producing homicidal tendency.[/i][/quote]Your assertion fails on the simple test of the word delusion. The simple fact is that TIPS is real. I am not imagining this. :)

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by DC: [b]Big Brother, here we come...[/b][/quote]What's the problem here? It's the same damn thing as a Neighborhood Watch program. Don't some of you think you're jumping to conclusions?

[aeon]

[quote][i]samtraxmoogy said:[/i] [b]It's the same damn thing as a Neighborhood Watch program.[/b][/quote]I see a big difference between something that is local and driven by the people who live in a community as opposed to a legislated institution from the federal government. Hey, I am just an unreasonable man! :D

[Dogfur]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] If you are worried about a specific abuse, we would have to discuss that individually. What exactly are you worried will happen ? Beating with a rubber hose ?....NOW THAT would be an abuse and I would jump up and down with you ! [/b][/quote]Welcome Back LeiDiLi :wave: , AS with our discussions in months past I will have to research and provide sources, but immediately what comes to mind is: A recent group of people detained at an airport on their way to anti-CIA terror school protest. A recent commencement speech from President bu$h at a public University in Ohio where protesters were threatened with arrest or detention for excercising their first amendment rights. I put it out for discussion that the "Spy Corps" thing is just a "Dog and Pony" show for the unknowing people to divide themselves, a detraction from the real objective of this administration - Loot as much wealth from the crumbling economy as it can, and put into place devices ( ie: pipelines, military support for those pipelines, puppet govt's, etc...)to continue this looting on a global level, without concern for international ramifications later.

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by lwilliam: [b]Wow! Didn't the Nazi's encourage their citizens to turn in suspicous people who might be someone of a non-nationally approved religion? Deja Vu!!![/b][/quote]Yeah, the Soviets too...

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon: [b]Your assertion fails on the simple test of the word delusion. The simple fact is that TIPS is real. I am not imagining this. :) [/b][/quote]No you're not imagining TIPS. But you ARE projecting an awful lot of assumptions on the intentions, and the usage of the program. You ARE jumping to conclusions. I will agree with what you said about "security" being an "illusion". I'll make a qualifier, and say TRUE security is an illusion. But does that mean that we shouldn't be concerned and keep our eyes and ears open? We know that sooner or later we are going to be attacked again. Shouldn't we take steps to avoid it, and prevent it -if possible. You already said you believe that we have a moral obligation to do that. Fair enough. But you have a problem with the government "legislating" it. I don't think of it as legislation, I think of it as organization. An organized effort to enable citizens to help protect our country and it's people -that's all I see in the articles I've read. Now what the hell is wrong with that??? That people might abuse the system??? Well look out Henny Penny, the sky is falling!!! Has it occurred to you that if we give people cars, they might run other people off the road on purpose??? People do it every day! If we establish a police force, that certain cops might be corrupt, and abuse their power? Well we all know that happens. If we legally obligate kids to go to school, that certain -screwed up- kids might obtain weapons, and go around murdering the innocent? It's yesterday's news -and yet we still do it. Every night I lock my doors. Yet, to my knowledge nobody has EVER tried to gain entry to my house. Should I stop locking my doors? To my knowledge, there have been no muggings, kidnappings, murders, in my neighborhood. It's been years since anyone has had a bike, or a grill stolen from their garage. Does that mean that we should notify the police that we don't need their protection, and patrols anymore? Does it mean that we as residents shouldn't be looking out and report suspicious activity to the police? I sure hope so! Terrorism isn't just something that happens in other countries anymore -although it still happens there far more than here. We would be fooling ourselves to think that it wasn't a matter of time before it started happening here. We have our freedom, and all of the Americans I've ever met -and I've met a lot- are VERY protective of that freedom. We are all very aware that there are plenty of people who would like to take that freedom away from us. But we will never let that happen. We have become very conscious of our civil rights, and continue to struggle to protect, and, increase those rights (especially blacks, and women, but ,many others too). Nobody is going to take those away from us. We won't let them. You are already seeing the TIP, as a serious infringement. How many others -do you suppose- feel the same way? I'll bet there are plenty. Very few in this country take their freedom for granted. I respect your opinion, and I applaud your concern, because it is a concern for my freedom as well as your own. But, I don't agree with your conclusions, and I don't feel that disbanding a program that is being set up to help make America a more secure place for all of us to live, -before it has even been implemented- is in the best interest of our country, and all we love and hold dear.

[LeiDeLi]

I think it is clear that some of us are worried about what *MIGHT* happen. That is good. I just don't think we should be too quick to criticise security measures based on what MIGHT happen, because we already know that we ACTUALLY have 2800 dead American citizens. Yes, when we are in a war, and people are ACTUALLY getting killed, it makes sense to be a little more cautious, and report suspicious activity. That is not harming anyone's rights. Suspicious activity, for example, would be a group of Middle-Eastern guys who have no jobs but are constantly loading large boxes into their garage and taking pictures of the airplanes on approach to your airport. So far, 100% of the terrorists have been Middle-Eastern men. When you have accurate data on something like this, it is not "racial profiling", it is "a description of the perpetrators". :) Investigating would be having the Feds go talk to these guys and find out what they are doing. (politely). Cooperating would be explaining what the situation is. It would be an "abuse" if the Feds searched the place without a warrant or beat the guys up. It is not a violation of anyone's rights to be questioned when suspicious activity has been reported. You do not have a right to never be asked a question or offended (if you think being questioned is offensive). Sorry. There just is no protection against that in the Constitution. :p

[progfusion74]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b]I think it is clear that some of us are worried about what *MIGHT* happen. That is good. I just don't think we should be too quick to criticise security measures based on what MIGHT happen, because we already know that we ACTUALLY have 2800 dead American citizens. Yes, when we are in a war, and people are ACTUALLY getting killed, it makes sense to be a little more cautious, and report suspicious activity. That is not harming anyone's rights. Suspicious activity, for example, would be a group of Middle-Eastern guys who have no jobs but are constantly loading large boxes into their garage and taking pictures of the airplanes on approach to your airport. So far, 100% of the terrorists have been Middle-Eastern men. When you have accurate data on something like this, it is not "racial profiling", it is "a description of the perpetrators". :) Investigating would be having the Feds go talk to these guys and find out what they are doing. (politely). Cooperating would be explaining what the situation is. It would be an "abuse" if the Feds searched the place without a warrant or beat the guys up. It is not a violation of anyone's rights to be questioned when suspicious activity has been reported. You do not have a right to never be asked a question or offended (if you think being questioned is offensive). Sorry. There just is no protection against that in the Constitution. :p [/b][/quote]In that case, how do you control the people who shot at or attacked sikhs after 9/11, or for that matter another Indian fellow I know who got into trouble for asking the stewardess about the emergency exit mechanism on a plane. She just assumed he was middle eastern. If people were not ignorant (and stupid), I would not worry, but in a country where "asian" refers to people from the Far East and ignores half the population of asia, I do worry. Sure enough suspicious activities should be noted and reported, but legislation is a little gung-ho. I don't think the government is neccesarily being heavy-handed here, just stupid.

[lakeside studios]

Here in the UK we've had Irish Republican terrorism/freedom-fighting(depends on your point of view) for over 30 years(as recently as 1997 the centre of Manchester was destroyed by a terrorist bomb,but I don't expect you heard of that in the US),and sure,the Police and security forces have special powers,but there has never been government initiatives like this Tips thing.Anyway,it wouldn't work here,as they've sold the Post Office to the Fat Cats,and put all the workers on short-term contracts,so they don't give a toss. This all sounds to me like what the communists were doing in Eastern Europe until recently.Divide and rule.Beware.Seems like there was a right wing coup in your country at the last "election". By the way - anyone used Rode's new nt5's as overheads?

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]In that case, how do you control the people who shot at or attacked sikhs after 9/11[/quote]No excuse for that. we control them by doing exactly what we did...track them down and put them in jail. I *hope* that is what happened. I am not familiar with your specific incident, but in SLC, Utah we had a similar incident where the locals grabbed the guy and held him until the police arrested him. Ironically, he was "profiled" for his suspicious behavior and was caught trying to set fire to the back of a Pakistani restaurant. [quote] or for that matter another Indian fellow I know who got into trouble for asking the stewardess about the emergency exit mechanism on a plane. She just assumed he was middle eastern. If people were not ignorant (and stupid),[/quote]Depends on exactly what you mean by "got in trouble". Do you mean he was questioned further ? Stupdity will be with us whether we are vigilant or not !

[nursers]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon: [b]There is another angle here: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html [/b][/quote]Ahh the good old Sydney Morning Herald - not a bad newspaper actually

[LeiDeLi]

DOGFUR WROTE: [quote]I put it out for discussion that the "Spy Corps" thing is just a "Dog and Pony" show for the unknowing people to divide themselves, a detraction from the real objective of this administration - Loot as much wealth from the crumbling economy as it can, and put into place devices ( ie: pipelines, military support for those pipelines, puppet govt's, etc...)to continue this looting on a global level, without concern for international ramifications later.[/quote]A possibility. But, as with most paranoid delusion, a possibility does not mean that there is any ACTUAL evidence that something like this is happening. It would imply that the whole war on terror is a concerted effort to delude the American people for evil gain. Yet, in the next breath, you will criticize the government for being too incompetent to run an effective security program. So which is it ? Bumbling fools who can't make anything work, even the simplest security plan ?... or secretive evil geniuses that can control the worlds vast armies, economies, and media without leaving a traceable clue ? Eventually, any rational person will look at what is ACTUALLY happening, and conclude that it is exactly as it appears: an organization of religious lunatics wants to kill us, and the adminstration is looking for effective ways to stop it. Cool paranoia theories though ! :thu:

[Lee Tyler]

Interesting discourse, guys. Being that the music and arts crowd has a strong left-leaning liberal viewpoint, it is not surprising to find the vast majority of responses on this thread to that link in a major bugged out state. :eek: The tenured professors/60's thinkers in our schools have left a great "impression" on the minds of our constituants and the indoctrination of that kind of ideology permeates it's subjects. Like cellophane. Clear as day. We would all be speaking German if the populace at large's "head" would be back then where it is [i]now.[/i] (At least the ones who were not Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, ETC.) They would be dust. You gotta do watcha gotta do in regards to the religious fanatics that [i]murder[/i] innocents in this world. Period. Typical bleeding heart, immature, uninformed, illogical reactions are being observed from this side of the monitor.

[progfusion74]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]In that case, how do you control the people who shot at or attacked sikhs after 9/11[/quote]No excuse for that. we control them by doing exactly what we did...track them down and put them in jail. I *hope* that is what happened. I am not familiar with your specific incident, but in SLC, Utah we had a similar incident where the locals grabbed the guy and held him until the police arrested him. Ironically, he was "profiled" for his suspicious behavior and was caught trying to set fire to the back of a Pakistani restaurant.[/b][/quote]I hope they were caught, but an innocent man was killed. [quote][b] [quote] or for that matter another Indian fellow I know who got into trouble for asking the stewardess about the emergency exit mechanism on a plane. She just assumed he was middle eastern. If people were not ignorant (and stupid),[/quote]Depends on exactly what you mean by "got in trouble". Do you mean he was questioned further ? Stupdity will be with us whether we are vigilant or not ![/b][/quote]Yes he was questioned, but it was not gentle. I know of several other cases like that. All too disturbing, just because people are either trigger-happy, or ignorant. It is one thing spending extra time at the airport to go through extra security (compared to what I have seen elsewhere the security here is still very lax, so that is hardly a bother). It is another thing to be humiliated and made to feel like a criminal. You have very valid points, but given the country's history with Japanese americans during WWII, it would help to think twice about measures which smell too much like what countries in the Iron curtain (or for that matter Nazi Germany) encouraged in the past (nothing that drastic, but you get my drift) Just my feelings prog