what's wrong with e-mu gear?

[Max Ventura]

what is wrong with e-mu gear? Being a major dealer in my country, I have made tons of special offers on e-mu gear, even convincing the importer to sell off some items that weren't moving with extra bonuses and such, but, believe me or not, ANY E-MU MODULE I SELL ALMOST ALWAYS COMES BACK FOR EXCHANGE with something Roland or whatever. Is it the sounds? People tell me they're weak. I can't agree to that. Is it the interface? Maybe, because it's laid out in a very '80s style, even now that they have knobs on. Is it the internal architecture? Maybe that, too, which is downright confusing, and lenghty as hell. But what can that be, really? And the Proteus keyboards, all 4 of them including the Halo: I sold 2 of them in all! And the grooveboxes? 2, no more! What the heck? E-mu's really unlucky here.

[Brian T]

[quote]Originally posted by argomax: [b]what is wrong with e-mu gear? Being a major dealer in my country, I have made tons of special offers on e-mu gear, even convincing the importer to sell off some items that weren't moving with extra bonuses and such, but, believe me or not, ANY E-MU MODULE I SELL ALMOST ALWAYS COMES BACK FOR EXCHANGE with something Roland or whatever. Is it the sounds? People tell me they're weak. I can't agree to that. Is it the interface? Maybe, because it's laid out in a very '80s style, even now that they have knobs on. Is it the internal architecture? Maybe that, too, which is downright confusing, and lenghty as hell. But what can that be, really? And the Proteus keyboards, all 4 of them including the Halo: I sold 2 of them in all! And the grooveboxes? 2, no more! What the heck? E-mu's really unlucky here.[/b][/quote]I think I know. How many times can you put a new ROM set in a Proteus, repaint it, and sell it as a new product? A little innovation would be cool. Regards, Brian T

[DanS]

They are bad for repackaging the same old idea, but that said, I still love my P2K, although I have just added a Roland XV-5050 too!

[DC]

I think the P2K is a great module. Maybe you could have some programming seminars and show people what these things can do when you start twiddling the knobs.

[aeon]

[quote][i]argomax asked:[/i] [b]what is wrong with e-mu gear?...Is it the sounds? People tell me they're weak. I can't agree to that. Is it the interface? Maybe, because it's laid out in a very '80s style, even now that they have knobs on. Is it the internal architecture? Maybe that, too, which is downright confusing, and lenghty as hell. But what can that be, really?[/b][/quote]I’d like to state before I answer this question that I am an E-mu user and I very much like the E-mu products I have: an XL-7 w/TSCY ROM (upgraded from XL-1) and an UltraProteus. I have also owned in the past a Proteus/1XR, a Morpheus and an Audity2000. Here is what is wrong with E-mu gear as I see it. [list=1] [*][b]E-mu tries to pack too many sounds into too small of a memory space[/b], resulting in a compromised sound quality due to fewer multisamples and shorter loops. In the case of my XL-7, which focuses on single-cycle and short-sample spectra, this is not so much a concern, but on an E-mu box that wants to produce more “natural” sounds, such as the Proteus2000 or Virtuso2000, it becomes a real issue. [*][b]E-mu recycles ROM sounds too often.[/b] For example, my XL-1/XL-7 ROM is made up of the waveforms from 3 older E-mu products. Users want fresh waves, plain and simple. [*][b]E-mu releases buggy machines (like most manufacturers) and is incredibly slow to fix them (unlike their competitors).[/b] The Audity2000 was nearly unuseable in multi because of a voice-release bug, and it was months before E-mu addressed the issue. Meanwhile, news spread through the web like wildfire, and it really hurt the sales of the product. Another example was the initial release of the XL-7/MP-7 Command Stations...there was a disrupting delay when switching patterns during play, making the boxes virtually unusable for live performance - their intended market. [*][b]E-mu made what I feel is an unwise choice in terms of using the brightly-colored faceplates on their modern Proteii.[/b] Overall, users do not like those colors, and have vocalized this. One only needs to look to Waldorf to see that the Q went from being a bright yellow beast to a sedate blue. People have also voiced their dislike for the plastic faceplates. [*][b]E-mu has been hurt by the “ROMpler backlash.”[/b] I feel there is a bias among many users against PCM-based products. I don’t think this means E-mu needs to do a VA or anything, but some true sonic innovation in PCM-playback would be welcome. [*][b]E-mu modules have poor effects.[/b] There are only 2 effects processors in the modules, and they offer a limited selection of fairly weak effects. Also, the 4-bus send-per-osc aux architecture is very confusing for most people. As a programmer, I realize the power it gives me, but most users do not dig that deep, so another alternate mode that is simplified would be welcome. More importantly, E-mu needs to offer the power of their RFX board, which is only for Ultra-class samplers, as standard equipment on their modules, allowing multiple insert effects per channel. One only has to look at many of their competitors to see this is now the standard. [*][b]E-mu continues to use a button-and-pages UI for a synthesis architecture that is quite deep.[/b] While I realize that more controls cost more money, I think the real-time musicality and usability are worth it. The late 90s saw the return of devices festooned with knobs, but it took E-mu a long time before they released their Command Stations. [*][b]E-mu expansions are too expensive.[/b] For example, I considered upgrading my XL-1 to a XL-1 Turbo, but it was less expensive to buy a whole new Command Station and then sell my XL-1. So for [i]less money[/i] than the expansion, I got everything it offered, and more in terms of sound quality, user interface, drum pads and a sequencer. [*][b]E-mu makes it very difficult for Proteii module owners to do any sound-sample customization.[/b] E-mu offers a way to burn custom sounds onto a Flash RAM, but the Flash is fairly spendy, and you need an E-mu Ultra-class sampler to assemble the sounds and burn them. If E-mu offered a means by which users could author a wave set without having to buy a full-blown sampler, I am sure it would make the modules more attractive. [*][b]E-mu offers too few expansion ROMs[/b] for the modules given the size of their sample library. For example, why not release the waves from the Vintage Keys Plus on a 16MB module? [*][b]E-mu has provided an incredibly powerful and capable technology in the Z-plane filters,[/b] but they have as many detractors as fans. It’s great that you can use a complex 12-pole resonator to shape your sound, [b]but sometimes users just want a traditional 2-pole or 4-pole lowpass with juicy resonance and classic sound[/b], and E-mu does not offer that. The strange thing is, they used to do so on older modules, but they giveth and then taketh away. A good example of that is the Morpheus and UltraProteus, with 198 and 288 filter models respectively, most of which were 14-pole. Current modules sport 50 filters (that some would argue are more musically useful) that top out at 12-pole. [*][b]E-mu has produced an incredibly deep and complex engine[/b] for the Proteii modules, with a near-modular level of programming depth...[b]but the simple fact is that most buyers do not program[/b], so I don’t know if this feature sells boxes. Now, I love to program, so I enjoy what E-mu has provided, but it is also somewhat frustrating that sample-level modulation and patching is not provided. For example, where is my osc sync, my ringmod, my pulsewidth modulation and my filtermod? If E-mu provided these things, they might also escape some of the ROMpler bias. [/list] Sorry so long, but that is what came to mind when I considered the question. Even with all I have listed I am glad to own my E-mu modules, but they serve as but a flavor alongside other synthesizers with varying synthesis technologies.

[benoïd]

I subscribed the EMU mailing list, and I've read there that EMU users will have an USB optional card for the samplers, as well as a new software, maybe some VST sampler that would also be able to dialog with the sampler and organize banks etc. in the HD of the computer... That could be good news. But I agree that they don't really renew their sounds. I mean, whan I bought my sampler two years ago, it was provided with 20 CD-Rom of sounds (for free !!) but some of them were quite old (yet some others are great). And their upgrades are really expensive...

[StoneKnife]

For once a music equipment company has built a product that is not 5 years behind the computer technology, and that company was not EMU. There was just no contest when comparing the AKAI Z4/Z8 to the similarly priced P-2500, or anything else in that class for that matter. The features I found to be irresistable were the ak.Sys system, which enables the ak.Sys software to control (up to 32) AKAI outboard samplers via USB, plus the ability to transfer samples [b]directly [/b] from my computer's CD-ROMs (and DAW projects) into the Z8 with drag-and drop,(!) the Z8's ability to have/use 512 MEGs RAM, the Virtual front panel, 20Gig internal Hard Drive, 24/96 effects processing... I was able to circumnavigate the Pro Tools LE lack of Direct Connect support for Windows and relieve my computer of CPU workload yet have the two work together as though they were the same machine. It was merging outboard processing with desktop control- and the ability to utilize my existing CD-ROM (instead of buying a dedicated SCSI CDRom) and by combining the Z8's 20 gig HDD and my computer's audio drive I have almost unlimited space for file exchange... Nothing EMU makes could come close.

[ernest828]

I have owned a Proteus 2/Orchestral since 1994 and I love it but I won`t touch their other modules, keyboards, etc... Last year I was looking for another sound module and did not want to spend more than $800. I was looking at the Proteus 2000 and I eventually grabbed the Roland JV 1080. What a great module and just to think the 1080 is a good 4 years older than the Proteus 2000. I also own the Emu Proformance Piano Mod. which I truly enjoyed until about 16 months ago when it pooped out on me. I never found their units to be hard to get around, I much prefer their method than Roland but I`ll take the sounds any day. Peace, Ernest

[R. Wiggum]

aeon, couldn't have said it better. ;) And this is coming from someone one brought the Proteus 2000 and later sold it to somebody else.

[Gtoledo3]

I'm not trying to start any flame fest! I have never bought a peice of emu gear b/c whenever I've looked at adding a particular kind of peice of hardware to my setup, the emu's have always seemed crappier. Plain and simple. In auditioning their keys or samplers, I haven't been thrilled with the sounds at all. Thusly, I have deferred to Roland, Akai, Yamahahaha, Korg, and others for my keyboard/sampler thingees. It has always seemed to me though, that they're just a "hit" away. I mean, it's not total crap! I'm sure you could get very usable results, it just doesn't have that "this really punches my button, I gotta get it," factor.

[Sergievsky]

yeah agree with aeon. Not enough effects (don't understand why more manufacturers do fx like in the Supernova, keeping the settings even when put in a multi), no option to add fx (for the modules), and upgrades and options way too much. Samples in the ROMs just plain suck. Presets suck. I have a P2k and an E5000 so I do plan on burning my own ROM and upgrading, still expensive though for the flash rom, not to mention I just don't have the time now to do it.

[aliengroover]

A couple of points: Comparing the Z4/8 to the P2500 is literally apples and oranges. And, NOBODY comes close to Roland in terms of recycling sounds. Looking to upgrade your Roland synth? Most, if not all, of your sounds will be in the next incarnation, plus some new ones. Other than that, I pretty much agree with a lot of the points made. Thing is, I like EMU. I think they make useful products. But I agree that with the P2K they crammed WAY too many sounds into it, sacrificing some quality. Compared to my Triton and JVs sounds, they're a bit dull. I do like what that does to some of the sounds, though. In a sense, however, they have a "sensible" sell...Buy a P2K and then, for a 1/3 or so of the price, buy another module (sound ROM) and stick it in there. The things aren't cheap, but they're not madly expensive. I do think they're being dumb by delaying release of the Composer soundset. Again, I like EMU products, but they're not in the same class as the rest of the manufacturers. PEace

[GZsound]

After trying Roland equipment (Juno 106, D110, etc.) and then graduating to Yamaha DX and TX81Z stuff, I bought EmU and never looked back. I use a Vintage Keys module and a Proteus FX module and their ease of use and quality of sound has served me for a long time. I like to play and spend as little time as possible programming. Stock sounds and layering are about it. For me, EmU has been great and I'll use these two modules until the doors fall off..

[GZsound]

After trying Roland equipment (Juno 106, D110, etc.) and then graduating to Yamaha DX and TX81Z stuff, I bought EmU and never looked back. I use a Vintage Keys module and a Proteus FX module and their ease of use and quality of sound has served me for a long time. I like to play and spend as little time as possible programming. Stock sounds and layering are about it. For me, EmU has been great and I'll use these two modules until the doors fall off..

[fantasticsound]

As a novice user of a Proteus 2 Orchestral module and a Proteus MPS (Master Performance System) keyboard, both purchased a EMU's salesperson accomodation in 1992, I can only speak from out of date experience. It is my impression from other posters that my experience is not particularly varied from those who use current EMU sound modules. For that reason, here is my 2 cents: The MPS was released shortly after Korg introduced the 01/W. I could not afford the full price of either keyboard, but Korg offered no accomodation to me at that time. For that reason I decided on the MPS. The keyboard itself has a cheap feel. Always did. The sounds were clearly inferior to the Korg at that time, although there are a few decent ones. (Bear in mind, 2 years prior to this, EMU sounds were considered to be as good as anything available with the possible exception of a few Kurzweil sounds that had to be loaded individually due to there large file size.) The sound setup is/was just plain [i]awful[/i]! First, at a time when General Midi was being introduced by Roland, Korg, and others, EMU decided to haphazardly group sounds. There is no rhyme or reason to the sound set. Finding sounds required me to program Quick Keys or write crib notes that always seemed to get lost. Scanning a copy of the sound set list from the user manual took almost as long as scanning the actual keyboard LCD screen. Second, drum kits incorporated [i]no[/i] electronic connection between closed and open high hat sounds (standard on Roland's keys and modules of that time) and frankly, I'd have been lost without my Alesis SR-16 because most of the drum sounds suck. I'd be sugar coating it to say they were acceptable, even when new. I worked at, and bought these EMU products through, Guitar Center in Chicago. For a year I attempted to buy blank memory card media from EMU, through GC, with no luck. I've never seen one blank memory card that fits the MPS. As a novice player who grew up banging out songs on a real piano, I was/am disappointed that I didn't save money for a piano action keyboard such as the Roland FP-8 (which was current in 1992). Although this would have limited my sounds to a few piano, rhodes, organ and marimba sounds, I could always have bought a module to augment the better feeling, 88 key unit. When I began working at MARS Music - Nashville in 1998 I had the chance to play with new synths. I was intrigued by the new EMU products, but found myself drawn, once again, to Roland and Korg (as well as Yamaha) products. With the possible exception of large frame, hardware samplers, I'm perplexed at how EMU is successful at all.

[Henchman]

And let's face it. Emu really srted going down hill when they were bought by Creative (Soundblaster).

[RandyH]

While they can have my E-Mu Procussion module (more or less a percussion Proteus) when they can pry it from my cold dead hands, I have not found any other E-Mu gear attractive for many of the reasons discussed above. Lack of good effects, lack of basic things like a traditional resonant filter, poor user interface, and endlessly recycled technology... Some innovative changes, like larger displays with graphical editing and touch screens, non-rompler sound generation (or hybrid like the SY77), and a front panel that detaches and is also a wireless remote control are some things that could bring me back. Making VSTi versions of their classic instruments wouldn't be a bad idea either. I'd buy a bunch. Randy

[Felix_dup1]

Sounds like they really need to address the presets in all of these modules. A software-based editor (to bring the depths of the potential programming power to the surface) would also be a good thing. I'd seriously consider a P2500 - love those knobs! But how much is Creative really going to invest in E-MU - it's certainly not their first priority.

[Dan South]

Man, this it weird! I feel like I'm in an episode of The Twilight Zone. I almost never return ANYTHING, but I've returned two EMU modules over the years, a percussion module and the Virtuoso 2000 orchestral unit. Bottom line: I didn't care for the sound.

[aeon]

Just so the thread doesn’t become too one-sided, I would also like to state what I see as being right with E-mu gear. I make these comments in reference to my E-mu XL-7/XL-1, which I use for synthy sounds, not ROMplery sounds. [list=1] [*][b]E-mu offers a large selection of single-cycle and spectral waveforms that are harmonically rich and well-looped.[/b] I like the fact that between the XL-ROM and the TSCY-ROM, I have many different flavors of, for example, sawtooth waves (among others) from which to shade patches. I also like the mix of analog tones, digital tones, and sampler-y tones. In addition, I like the fact that many of the waves have an attack transient on them for added expression, but that it can be removed by adjusting the sample-start parameter...that allows for more colors in less ROM space. [*][b]E-mu offers an engine where everything locks to tempo.[/b] This feature is so powerful for music with more-than-subtle tempo changes. All of the LFOs will change speed, but more importantly, all of the envelopes will tighten up or stretch out as needed to fit the music. No other synth I own, and no other synth I am aware of, has this feature. [*][b]E-mu offers a wide range of Z-plane filters.[/b] Combined with the wave selection, all manner of tones can be created that are distinctive as compared to my other synthesizers, and indeed, would require external processors to achieve with my other synths. My E-mu PCM box is a great complement to my Roland PCM box. [*][b]E-mu offers one hell of a modulation matrix,[/b] which they call their patchcord system. Through the use of patchcords, many unique modulation effects can be achieved, and the patchcord system itself offers many operators that are usually only found on analog modular systems. Combined with the tempo-lock engine, you can make some of the deepest syncro-sonic timbres ever. [*][b]E-mu offers sample-start and sample-looplength as modulation targets in the mod matrix.[/b] You don’t see that on too many other PCM-playback boxes. [*][b]E-mu offers a 4-layers per patch architecture, where each layer is a complete synthesizer voice.[/b] As a result, you can achieve a range of thinner to thicker timbres, as well as complex layered tones. I also like the fact that you can link patches so you can create sounds with up to 12 oscillators per note. This is incredible when using 12 different-but-similar waveforms, and a mix of Z-plane filters...pads get no better than this. [/list] So, does anyone else want to share what they do like about E-mu gear? I clearly identified some things I think are wrong, but there is enough that is right for me to own an E-mu box, and indeed, it hangs with some other badass synths.

[Sergievsky]

My Ultra E5000 sounds great. The same akai samples played through an Akai S2000 just doesn't sounds as good. And the P2k as 128polyphony, and unlike the Roland it doesn't disappear as fast. As soon as I burn my own FlashRom I'm sure I'll have more good things to say. At least they dropped the price on those things by $100.

[Sui]

I have the Procussion and Proteus/3... They both collect dust... the samples in the procussion are especially shitty - gritty, weak and lifeless (particularly the kicks and snares). The cases that enclose these units - I have to agree with the other post - they look/feel cheap and nasty. The user interface is also a bear to navigate - doesn't bother me much but I wouldn't recommend it for a novice programmer. About the only thing Emu did do right was use the computer cable type power supplies instead of those damn wall warts. Sorry to say, but both of these units were probably the most disappointing of all the synths and drum modules I've collected over the years..

[aliengroover]

And ya wonder why the prices on their gear have been falling kinda fast lately? Peace

[Mark Zeger]

I made more money with my Proteus 1 than any other piece of gear I ever purchased. I got one of the first ones available, had to pay list, but the sounds (circa 1989) were amazing in their day. I'm selling it now because I picked up a P2000 last year. The P2000 is a good value for a ROMpler, and a valuable resource in my studio. I used it very effectively to round out sampled brass section parts on a recent jingle that with a big band arrangement (the samples were Quantum Leap Brass, which itself is amazing). It's not a Triton or XV-5080, but it's not priced that way either.

[meccajay]

It's amazing to me how many people complain about the EMU stuff, but it is amazing how many succesful urban, Hip Hop, Neo-soul and dance HITS you can clearly hear the EMU P2K, Mo Phatt sound(patches) on. Not to bad for less than a grand.