Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

Motown Fans... Help me! (boxset purchase Q)


dohhhhh6

Recommended Posts

Originally posted by kad:

In recent years, there has been a rather bitter dispute over who actually recorded the bass parts for many of the hits that have traditionally been attributed to Jamerson. ...

It's unfortunate that James is no longer here to set the record straight, whatever the truth may be...

 

Kirk

Complicating this is the fact that some tunes that may've begun with one player in Dtroit could've had parts replaced by others in LA.

This happened, especially, in the later days.

 

As for which set to buy, definitely the older one has what would be considered the classics but there's other criteria---do you like the tunes on one set? Does on represent music that you don't know but might like to learn?

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

The older set, fer sure. And get another CD rack for all those other Motown albums you'll be getting in '05, because you'll wind up building a collection of your own. Some of the "Tribute" CDs by other artists aren't that bad either, if you don't mind interpretations. Finally, locate a couple of used CD stores and start browsing. Or hit your local public library. (yes, a lot of them have been modernizing their collections lately!) Don't forget flea markets and garage sales. One man's trash...

 

That one CD set is only the beginning...

enjoy the journey!

:wave:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Scoot:

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

which one would it be?

Let's see. Stevie's "I just called to say I love you" versus Stevie's "For Once In My Life"?

 

This choice is simple DLITPD. Choose wisely.

That was brilliant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just spoke at length with Michael Henderson regarding this subject and I can add him to the long list of reputable professionals who were around when Jamerson was making the records in question.... Another mark against the single recollections from California (She is the only one making these outrageous claims). I would hope that she gives up her fantasy...

 

BL

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone doubts that James Jamerson was a prodigious master of the bass & on most of what we associate with early Motown, sometimes even defining the record with self-composed parts...but it's very definite that many of their records also had parts dubbed in by LA sessioneers.

Jamerson did suffer, as many Motown principles, a gradual decline personal attributable to various factors which may've led to some decline in his ability.

FWIW, though, JJ wasn't even the only bassist in Detroit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi MJRN,

 

The overdubbing was actually the other way around from what I hear (I would bet that I have been closer to this controversey than anyone on this forum). One of the things Michael Henderson mentioned about Jamerson and I agree, Jamerson was considered a "well kept secret" by B. Gordy. He would have records cut in L.A. during the 1969-1973 period (while the Funk Brothers were still producing pure Detroit product) and take the masters back to Detroit so Jamerson could overdub the bass. As you mentioned Jamerson was not the only bass player in Detroit/Motown, he was just the one EVERYBODY wanted on their record. It was mentioned that during a certain time period that most other Detroit bassist worked contingient upon Jamerson's availability/health.

 

When L.A. produced product to suit Motown's taste, they just did the record in L.A. with no overdubs in Detroit. By 1973 Jamerson was in California anyway. He absolutely did have problems but they have no bearing on the Claims made by Kaye which cover music made well before Motown moved out the L.A. (even though they had offices here in the early 1960's).

 

IMO, those that would have you think Carol Kaye played bass on the original "I Was Made To Love Her" From Stevie Wonder have stooped to every trick in the book to pursuade any one who would listen to their convoluted stories. or just to have some one say it was "plausible"...

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

NickLab quote:

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

FWIW, though, JJ wasn't even the only bassist in Detroit.

 

Yeah. A lot of people overlook Bob Babbitt.

 

Well, for the period of 1959-1972, Bob Babbitt (as great as he is) had very little involvement with Motown. His recording period with that company was 1968 (Marvin Gaye tune entitled "End of the Road") - 1971 (Inner City Blues, Mercy Mercy Me) for the most part. He was gone from Motown completely by the end of 1972. Jamerson was always the bassist that worked overwhelmingly more than any other during the 1959-1972 period. Most of Bob's recording work was done for other companies (a lot for former artists and producers from Motown). "Midnight Train To Gerogia" for (post Motown-1973) Gladys Knight and the Pips was recorded in New Jersey!

 

Notable Babbitt bass'd Motown tunes include (but are not limited to) "Signed Sealed Delivered, I'm Yours" (1970-Stevie Wonder), Tears Of A Clown (1970-Smokie Robinson), "War" (1970-Edwin Star)

 

Refer to Bob's Discography from his website:

http://bobbabbitt.com/disc.htm

 

Compare the above tunes to the complete Motown Singles 1959-1971 (even though the split on the CD sets is 1971, Jamerson was the king of Motown bass though 1972) and you see the basis for my statement as to Bob Babbitt's relative lack of involvement. I consider Bob to be a friend and staunch supporter of Jamerson's legacy. In SITSOM he is almost brought to tears telling some story about (I believe) Jamerson. Bob is a true talent.

 

Here is what Babbitt said regarding Jamerson-Kaye

From Bob Babbitt\'s Forum

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A shout out to Angelo, You've got a message from me. Now, I re-read something MJRN (Michael Jackson's Real Nose) said a few posts ago and I quote:

 

I don't think anyone doubts that James Jamerson was a prodigious master of the bass & on most of what we associate with early Motown, sometimes even defining the record with self-composed parts...but it's very definite that many of their records also had parts dubbed in by LA sessioneers
Now since it is "very definite" that "many" records were o/d in L.A. would you please provide us with some titles and who did the overdubbing?

 

I am a fair student of Motown cronology and I am eager to learn...

 

BL

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Low Downers,

 

I can only assume that he has not seen it, just a bump to the top as not to deny Michael Jackson's Real Nose an opportunity to elaborate on his statement (see previous post)....

 

I don't think anyone doubts that James Jamerson was a prodigious master of the bass & on most of what we associate with early Motown, sometimes even defining the record with self-composed parts... but it's very definite that many of their records also had parts dubbed in by LA sessioneers.
I heard it though the grapevine (pun intended) that one of the principals in this issue have seen the posts here.

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watched "Standing in the Shadows of Mowtown" yesterday.

What an amazing experience it was to see all of those guys together on stage and playing all those hits...

The thing that struck me the most was the way they not only loved the music that they were playing, but the way they loved one another as brothers. You could feel the magic they have together...

About time they get some recognition.

Tenstrum

 

"Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face."

Harry Dresden, Storm Front

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya know, if this was ANYONE else making these monumental claims, it would be easily dismissable. However, we're talking about the great Carol Kaye here - who has appeared on over 10,000 recordings and who Brian Wilson once called "the greatest f***ing bass player in the world". What could her motive possibly be??

 

If you go to the forums on Carol's web site (http://www.carolkaye.com), you'll find that she's a wonderfully gracious person who is always eager to help anyone and everyone. She personally responds to each and every post. She always confronts the Motown issue head on whenever it comes up, and her story is always consistent. As an aside, her forum is bursting with useful information and contains some of the best "bass talk" you'll find anywhere - I highly recommend it...

 

In all honesty, regarding the tracks in question, my ears lead me to agree with the majority. However (and this is the point of my post), I strongly suspect that the truth is much more complex than just "Carol is off her rocker"...

 

It's obvious to me by now that this is a very well known and volatile issue, and I regret having brought it up. However, with public opinion so heavily stacked on one side of the issue (even if rightfully so), I do feel that Carol at least deserves to have her story heard. If you go to her forum and go to "page 3", you will find four posts entitled "Manifesto 1-4". In the third post, she speaks in great detail about recording Bernadette. You will need to register in order to access her forums, which is why I can't just post a link, but you will no doubt find these posts to be very interesting.

 

Having said that, they are both fantastic players who deserve the highest respect, and I'll stop "feeding the bears" now... :)

 

Kirk

Reality is like the sun - you can block it out for a time but it ain't goin' away...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Manifesto was all Kaye's account for a magazine story about her and I have read it (even have a copy of it) However it does not stack up to all the evidence to the contrary.

 

A) Berry Gordy - apparently backs Jamerson participation in several ways 1-The forword to SITSOM the book calling Jamerson a Genius while knowing full well all the songs claimed by Kaye were part of the book and later movie, 2-He also licensed the music including Bernadette, IWMTLH and a host of other songs claimed by Kaye to be used in the book (notation and recordings with titles and writers acknowleged) and the movie (original recording & specially edited versions with only the bass). Ypu cant show much more support than that IMO.

 

B) Affidavits from producers H-D-H who produced Bernadette and the other 4 Tops records, and Henry Cosby (now deceased) who produced Stevie Wonder's IWMTLH (I would hope by now you have figured out IWMTLH is "I Was Made To Love Her"), all of the surviving Funk Brothers who played the sessions with Jamerson, the list goes on ad nauseum. They are all Lying and her lone account is supposed to be accepted as gospel????

 

C) What about the RNR Hall Of Fame? Jamerson was the first bassist inducted into their Hall Of Fame strictly as a bassist. The Sideman category seemed to me to be created for him. They did not mention all of his work but they did mention Bernadette & IWMTLH (FACT: Hal Blaine & Earl Palmer got in with Jamerson, where's Kaye?). How would you portray RNR HOF's actions in this regard?

 

While you and others are at Kaye's site why don't you listen to her bass only versions of Bernadette & IWMTLH. There are different notes and more imortantly a way different feel.

 

Furthermore, why not listen to the Beach Boy's version of IWMTLH which was recorded (definately with Kaye on Bass) around the same time of the Stevie Wonder recording with Jamerson playing (see how musch it DOESN'T sound like the Motown version) IMO her version from the website hasn't gotten any better with age.

 

Why didn't she just use re-recorded versions of the whole song showcasing her "playing" like they did in SITSOM, the book with CD's? I'll tell you why, because she would have to get Jobete's permi$$ion to do so. Bass lines in and of them selves are not copyrightable. The makers of the film SITSOM seemed not to have a problem getting that permission.

 

Someone mentioned Chuck Rainey:

 

from BenLoy;

 

I remember an old bass discussion newsgroup (remember those?) I was on where Chuck Rainey and Carol Kaye themselves got in a heated argument about this very subject. Rainey was blasting Carol for trampling on Jamerson's legacy, while Carol was standing by her claim.

Did you look at my link to Babbitt's opinion on the subject from his website a few posts ago?

 

http://bobbabbitt.com/_babb/00000198.htm

 

Why did 20 world class bassist honor Jamerson by playing reditions of HIS basslines with full rhythm section and (in some cases) string arrangement on the CD that came with SITSOM (the book)?

 

I would love to hear her answer to these questions but IMO that will never happen. Instead yes, you can go read the "manifesto".

 

Now before I go I have some further thoughts, first I am not angry at anyone second, I am passionate on this subject because I lived through it. I was playing in bass 1963 when Jamerson came into my world through those records. I knew his name well before most did. I really wish that I had met him in some ways and am glad I DID NOT in others (we were both in L.A. from 1980 when I came to L.A., till 1983 when he died).

 

Kad, if you can get answers to the questions I have posed here I would be most pleased. I really don't have any high hopes though...

 

BTW I never come to the table if there are BEARS there... Unless they are from Chicago...

BassLand

www.BassLand.net

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I finally got it! Dumb shipping company got it in WAY late.

 

I haven't even listened to the whole first cd. However, I'm LOVING it. I kinda wish the bass was more easily heard (and also not, since it suits the song better). However, my new clock/radio/cd player doesn't have the best bass ever. I think I'll listen to this stuff another time with the bass boosted in Windows Media Player sometime.

 

The fact that Jamerson can consistently make so many "perfectly suiting" basslines is behind my comprehension. Every one I've heard fits in perfectly, moves the song along, and sounds fantastic. Definitely my new inspiration!

 

I shall be watching SITSOM before this Christmas break is over, I'm waiting to soak in the actual music first.

 

P.S. I want to go on a car trip REALLY badly so I can listen to all this stuff through and through.

In Skynyrd We Trust
Link to comment
Share on other sites

at 56 euros it's a bit pricey
The music itself is priceless....

I highly encourage you to pick up a copy a.s.a.p. I remember when I first discovered Motown..... :)

I love rock and metal, but something about those Motown beats...they got soul!

Tenstrum

 

"Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face."

Harry Dresden, Storm Front

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Lady, what are your fave tracks so far?

 

I'm thinking of saving up for this box (well, I AM going to save up) but I wanna get some cheap low budget samplers of them 'old' bands as well.

 

Would be interesting to hear from a fellow youngsters (I'm 23) :thu:

"I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes

 

The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arghhh, I was writing a mini review, when IE unexpectedly quit.

 

I never knew what everyone was talking when they said "James Jamerson is GOD!" Now, I fully understand why they thought that. James Jamerson has a beautiful tone (I also know the correct definition of p bass w/ flatwound thump!). He's not only inspired me tonally, but also creatively. I'm currently in a church band that could benefit from me "pulling a Jamerson;" needless to say, I'm taking notes.

 

These cds are so full of music talent that I've decided to listen to each cd numerous times before moving on (instead of listening to them all randomly). I'm currently on my first listen of the 3rd cd. I've put in about 8-10 hours in so far.

 

The 1st cd is what I thought of when I heard Motown. It's a lot of pure fun pop that's often times formulatic, but mixed with moving grooves. I'd say there's a lot of filler on this cd (though their are quite a few pophits such as "Beechwood 4-5789").

 

The 2nd cd is officially one of my favorite cds EVER. With hits such as "My Girl," "Nowhere to Run," "You Can't Hurry Love," and soulful tunes such as "What Becomes of the Brokenhearted" and "It's the Same Old Song," this cd is PACKED full of hits anyone will recognize. The quality of this cd is atleast twice of the first (which I pretty thoroughly enjoyed). Amazingly awesome.

 

I think 50 bucks is a bit much for 4 hit filled cds, however, for a billows for someone's Motown desire, I'd highly recommend it. I have a feeling this set just might be a gift for friends in the future.

 

Now excuse me while I go ahead and listen to the next cd.

In Skynyrd We Trust
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Well my parents-in-law bought me the '59-'71 box set for my B-day last Friday. Needless to say I'm excited as hell !!!

 

Haven't had the chance to sit down and listen, but I imagine it'll be a trip :thu: AND this is something that everyone in the family can listen to :D

"I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes

 

The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well said Bassland, I think you've done a great job with all your posts and links.

 

Regarding the collections in the initial question, I think others have answered that already. If anyone hasn't bought the SitSoM CD yet, make sure you buy the deluxe 2 CD edition. The tracks remixed without vocals are stunning - and 'You're my everything' with just vocals and bass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...