Picking a fast riff: four-finger vs. up-down?

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

We're doing a Ska-like version of "Joy To The World" at church Sunday. Needless to say, there are some challenging basslines in there.

 

Here's one I'm kind of struggling with playing up to tempo. The riff is this:

 

2 8th notes on D (on the A string)

1 8th rest

1 8th note on D

2 8th notes a major 3rd up from D (F#)

1 8th note a 4th up from D (G)

1 8th note a 5th up from D (A)

 

Repeat 6 times at a tempo of around 180 bpm or so.

 

I find this riff fairly difficult to finger-pick up to tempo using just the index and middle finger on my right hand doing up strokes only. So I'm looking at using this to learn an alternative picking method to make this cleaner and faster. (Might as well take every opportunity to improve, right?) Two possibilities:

 

1) Use all four fingers on my right hand. Here's how it would go:

 

- index, middle on D

- rest

- index on D

- middle, ring on F#

- pinky on G

- index on A

 

And repeat. At the end of the riff, the index finger is already positioned on the A string to pick the D at the beginning of the riff.

 

The second alternative I can think of is to use index and middle finger to pick up AND down strokes instead of only up strokes. That would look like this:

 

- index up, down on D

- rest

- index up on D

- middle up, down on F#

- middle up on G

- middle down on A

 

Repeat.

 

I'm trying both, and right-off I'd have to say the the up-down picking seems to be easier to do faster than the four-finger picking. However, the notes sound more consistent with the four-finger picking...with the up-down picking there's a noticeable difference between the sound of the up stroke and the sound of the down stroke. I might try using 3 fingers to pick rather than 4 and see how that works as well.

 

I could probably master either by Thursday rehearsal (for this riff only!), but I should probably do the one that's going to give me the most mileage for future use. So, let's hear your opinions...which way would you go?

 

I think I'm leaning toward the up-down picking...but I'm going back to practice some more right now, so we'll see...

 

Thx!

Dave

[jeremy c]

That should be perfectly playable with two fingers.

 

I can almost do it with one finger.

 

I think you just need to work on your two finger alternating some more.

 

Although both of your other methods have some validity.

 

Chuck Rainey often plays with one finger using up and down strokes.

 

And there are a variety of players using three and four right hand fingers.

 

And of course using upstrokes and downstrokes that line should be a piece of cake with a pick.

 

Good luck! And Joy to The World (said Jeremiah the Bullfrog)!

[Dave Brown]

Pretty popular lick, that one. We all gotta play that from time to time.

 

One finger, two fingers, in and out (like Chuck does.)

 

I have developed a weapon in my arsenal for precisely this situation.

 

I lock my thumb and middle finger as if I were holding a pick, and then use these fingers just like I was picking, except not holding a pick. Works fast, like a pick, but sounds fleshy.

[doc taz]

Wow, four fingers? Most of the fast riffs I've seen bass players use typically employ just the index, middle, and ring fingers. The only time I use four fingers at all is when I'm picking chords on my 5 string.

 

At 180 BPM, two fingers should be enough. I wouldn't mind playing your example with a pick, but as much as possible, I do most of my stuff with fingers.

[Gruuve]

Thanks for the posts guys. It's definitely do-able with two fingers in the normal finger-picking fashion. I've almost got it the same tempo by using up/down strokes...I think I'm going to practice that route (I can always fall back to normal two-finger picking if I don't get the up/down picking good enough by Sunday). I'm still working on getting the up and down strokes to sound more similar...I guess that'll come with more practice.

 

Actually, I'll have to check the tempo with the metronome...I'm thinking it's probably closer to 240 (that's still do-able with normal two-finger picking...however, my wrist starts to hurt after practicing the whole song a few times). Not tonight though...time for some sleep!

 

Dave Brown, thanks for the suggestion. I occasionally play with a pick, so I'll give your technique a try...sounds like it might have some good possibilities. The only thing I don't like about playing with a pick is where to put the blasted thing when I'm not using it...this certainly gets around that little problem.

 

L8r,

Dave

[davio]

If your wrist starts to hurt from playing, it's time to check your hand position and try doing hand and forearm relaxation excerises. Try slowing it way down and concentrate on keeping your hand and arm as loose as possible, then slowly kick it up notch by notch just like you would when trying to get a difficult rif down but concentrating more on your muscles and hand position than the notes and rhythm since you already have that down.

 

Another thing that might help with that as well as possibly making it easier to play fast in general is turning your amp up a bit more and playing softer. Just let your fingers slip off the strings instead of "plucking" them.

 

Call me crazy, but the few times that I actually use a pick, I keep it stuck in the crack at the bottom (G string side) of my bridge pickup (where the pickup touches the bass) so I can grab and drop it quickly and easily. But I guess that only works if your pickups are flat on the sides rather than P style pickups with the screw hole sticking out from the side and whatnot.

 

Maybe you do it differently that I'm imagining it, but a 2-fingered up/down stroke seems to me that it would be close to impossible to get it to sound even what with the fingernail vs. fleshy callous against the string. If you master that technique, I would be very interested in seeing it in action. Good luck with that.

 

I'd say if it comes down to it and you're still having trouble playing it fingerstyle come Sunday, play it with a pick and hold it in your teeth if you must for the part of the song where you're not using it. That's probably what I would do.

 

Hope that can be of some help to you.

[Mike Bear]

I used to do 3 finger full time. No matter how fast. Just to always keep them getting exercise. The fastest I do is sextuplets at 180, or sixteenths at 200. Don't ask me if it's as clean or articulate as I'd like. Now I just use 3 when I need to. Two sounds better tone wise for me at least. The problem is what I was always trying to avoid. The 3rd finger just doesn't get as much action, so the callus builds differently and makes a different tone. If you don't use the 3rd finger much, you'll find it needs a bit of strengthening. Just make sure the volume is even between the fingers. Even if for starters it means making fingers 1 & 2 a bit more quiet.

 

I have not seen many people who use 4 fingers as a staple technique. Just Alex Webster from Cannibal Corpse. I think the pinkie is too short.

 

Start slow, then increase 5bmp at a time so it's not such a noticeable amount.

 

Good Luck and HAVE FUN!!!!!

 

Mike

[Fred TBP]

Most I've ever used is 3 fingers at once (index, mid and ring) or thumb, index and middle (classical style). I tend to use the right hand pinky for volume-tone adjustments, and it's too old a dog to learn new tricks. Maybe I'll practice thumb and 3 middle fingers together, but that's about all I'd aspire to.

 

Did you say 8th notes? I'd expect to use three fingers on 32nd notes; 8th/16th notes can be executed with the standard two finger (index and middle) salute, assuming you're not trying to play at vintage Metallica-style (such as the fast movement in "One") tempos.

[BenLoy]

I don't think you need to change your technique...it would change the way that line is supposed to feel, anyway. I can play it with two fingers at 240bpm with few problems.

 

Spend some time practicing the line at a slower tempo and then speed up a notch at a time.

 

Make sure you stay relaxed. If you tense up, your ability to play anything will start to disappear quickly.

[wraub]

Originally posted by davio:

Call me crazy, but the few times that I actually use a pick, I keep it stuck in the crack at the bottom (G string side) of my bridge pickup (where the pickup touches the bass) so I can grab and drop it quickly and easily. But I guess that only works if your pickups are flat on the sides rather than P style pickups with the screw hole sticking out from the side and whatnot.

Crazy here too, I've been doing this forever.

Handy and quick, and people don't usually even know where it went...

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Fred TBP]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

Spend some time practicing the line at a slower tempo and then speed up a notch at a time.

 

Make sure you stay relaxed. If you tense up, your ability to play anything will start to disappear quickly.

Well said, Ben! I need to follow this as well.

[ClarkW]

Ever watch someone doing Tai Chi? When I was a little chap, I figured that Bruce Lee could beat the tar out of any old Tai Chi dope, easy, and I was probably right.

 

But then I learned that Tai Chi was more about fitness and coordination than beating people up. But then I thought, "Well, when people run they try to run FASTER, not slowly! And when they lift weights, they lift HEAVY weights, not just wave their arms around!"

 

Then one day, I tried extending my arm and moving it across in front of my body, very slowly. I was amazed at how choppy and clumsy it looked in slow motion. And all of that is only multiplied in fast motion; we just don't see it with our eyes as well.

 

When I'm having real trouble with a riff, I resort to the Amazingly Agonizing Tai Chi Technique. Start out at one quarter tempo and play it until you can play it 10 times perfectly, in a row. Then speed up 5 beats and repeat.

 

Your patience will probably run out long before you even get to half speed. But the magic is that it will have already worked for you. Your full-speed attempts will hopefully be noticeably better (assuming you have the attention span to play slowly for more than just 5 minutes).

 

And for what it's worth, I'm a 3-finger man so I would play that index->middle->ring on the D, then index->middle on the F#, ring on the G, index on the A, rake back down to index on the D again to repeat the cycle.

 

I've never tried the back and forth technique, but it wouldn't be a bad tool to put in your arsenal at this point. It makes sense to work the muscles on the back of the hand just as much as you work the ones in the palm side. I'm sure all those rasgueados contribute plenty to the overall speed of an accomplished flamenco guitarist.

[alexclaber]

Standard alternate two finger plucking will do an admirable job of that riff, if you stay relaxed. And probably groove harder than using more fingers.

 

Alex

[BenLoy]

To practice lines that feel like that, I recommend listening to Horace Panter with The Specials on their debut album.

[Gruuve]

Hey guys:

 

Thanks again for all the posts. I think I've got this nailed now...it was just a matter of practicing it enough. The best piece of advice I used was to turn the amp up and play it more softly. I really need to consciously concentrate on doing that more frequently...that seems to really make a difference executing this riff. This is a great tune by the way!

 

I'd still like to add some additional technique...I may work in a few spots where I can use the up/down technique...as someone noted that seems like a really good thing to add to my arsenal. I've got one more song to learn tonight for Thursday rehearsal, if I get it nailed tonight then I'll go back to practicing with a some different picking technique on this Ska tune tommorrow night.

 

Btw, I finally clocked the tempo...it's about 225 or so...remarkable how much easier it is to play this riff up to tempo when I play softer...gotta get that drilled in my tiny little mind...

 

L8r!

Dave

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

The only thing I don't like about playing with a pick is where to put the blasted thing when I'm not using it...

You're supposed to throw it to the cute girl in the front row! Then you grin and give a thumbs up, right before you do your backflip to your mark for the synchronized pyro display. Oh, and don't forget to sing your backups.

[Rick Hoffman]

No love rocket shooting off the head of the bass, as you point it up into the sky over the crowd while making funny agonizing poser faces?

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by John William Hofmann:

No love rocket shooting off the head of the bass, as you point it up into the sky over the crowd while making funny agonizing poser faces?

What? I thought the stage pouty faces were only obligatory for guitarists...I didn't know we have to do them as bassists as well...oh well, guess I'll erect a mirror in the bonus room now...

[davio]

Oh yeah...the constipation face works wonders while playing in church! All the old ladies think you're trying to exorcize the evil spirits from your bowels.

 

As far as rasgueados, I had forgotten about doing that several years ago for a tune I did with a jazz combo. It can be a quite effective tool but I'm still alittle apprehensive about trying to play a flowing line combining up and down strokes. Again, if you happen to master this, I would be quite interested in seeing/hearing it.

[Gruuve]

Originally posted by davio:

Oh yeah...the constipation face works wonders while playing in church! All the old ladies think you're trying to exorcize the evil spirits from your bowels.

When I first started playing bass, a guitarist told me there are two things you have to stretch:

 

1) Your fingers, so you can reach the big frets on a bass.

 

2) Your legs, so you can stand with your feet about 60 inches apart while playing.

 

Dave

[davio]

ouch...

[Gruuve]

Ooops...wrong topic...I've moved this to the topic entitled "Picking with more fingers".