Michael Jackson: The recording industry is racist

[henryrobinett]

Rog, What I object to is the hue and cry when a racial issue is brought up. There is STILL a lot of area to yet be covered regarding racism in America. There is STILL a lot of backlash in this country when the subject is brought up. I agree that MJ isn't the best representative, but he's a powerful one. [quote] I'm pissed off at the guy because he seems to be playing the race card because things are going badly for him. He was remarkable quiet on race issues when he was the king of pop. Now he's a has-been he is using the one issue he was ambivalent about to generate publicity for HIMSELF. I find this distasteful in the extreme. [/quote]I hate to say it but people don't play the "race card" when things are going well for them. It just doesn't happen. The term "race card" is a pejorative as far as I'm concerned. It's a term used to make less of the issue. Put it in a nice little neat box and label it "bullshit". The only way to make racism real is to make it personal. You can do fine in life until you're finally blasted in the backside, broadside, frontal assault with RACISM. I sad it. I'm sorry, am I using the "race card"? [quote] Maybe you misunderstood my annoyance at the article using the "n-word" instead of nigger? [/quote]No, no. Nothing to do with that. Although I appreciate the "n-word" rather than "nigger". Nigger is EXTREMELY offensive to me. I don't like it when black people say it either. I don't think the STING should be taken out of it by over use. As innovative as Leny Bruce was he is not my idea of a role model. But this has nothing to do with my annoyance. I'm annoyed by the attitude that this whole episode is ridiculous BECAUSE HE'S MICHAEL JACKSON. [quote] Jackson rose to prominance because of his videos. He ruled MTV at a time when only white artists were played on the station. He was very successful. His last few albums have been utter crap. If he is to be dropped maybe it's not a race issue - maybe it's because no-one is buying his music anymore? [/quote]If you recall MJ broke the color barrior on MTV. There was a time when MTV wouldn't play black videos. There was a backlash. Michael Jackson came out with "Thriller" and they could no longer deny it. Michael Jackson pushed it and pushed it until they broke through.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] I don't know whether this has been covered yet in this thread but I recall a similar situation with Earth, Wind and Fire. They put out one record that bombed and a previous one that was marginal and Columbia DROPPED them. Maurice White called foul then. Bob Dylan, to use an example I can remember, consistently sold LESS and never had the hits EWF did.[/b][/quote]Yeah but that's a bad comparison because Bob Dylan never had the kind of expenses and recording budget that EWF did. Somebody like Dylan is adaptable, he can go out and tour by himself with a guitar if he wants. His albums have never cost very much to make, therefore if even they don't sell very well the label still makes a decent profit. Dylan is the equivalent of buying utility company stock - he doesn't get the big hits but he's always a solid investment. Most of the 70's acts (including EWF) by comparison had HUGE expenses and were a huge gamble. The end of the disco era saw a LOT of casualties and yeah, a lot of them were black, but I don't think the Bee Gees could get any label attention after the disco era either. Same could be said for the 80's hair metal bands after the 90's grunge and hiphop took over (and at the time, grunge and hiphop were being made mostly by independent artists for very little money, while the hair bands had bloated budgets - same kinda thing as the 70's disco/funk period). I don't see how anyone could spend the kind of dough that Michael Jackson spends on his records, and expect not to get dropped if the records don't sell. --Lee

[ABECK]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] I agree that MJ isn't the best representative, but he's a powerful one. [[/b][/quote]Yeah, he has a way young boys. Oops, sorry - never convicted. Oh yeah, OJ was innocent too.

[-_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b]I hate to say it but people don't play the "race card" when things are going well for them. [/b][/quote]Although the article doesn't mention it, one of MJ's current lawyers in his fight against Sony is Johnnie Cochran. Make of that what you will. [quote]Originally posted by koolkid: [b]world war 3 has begun, let me tell you, michael jackson has alot of money and a lot of clout, as does sony, mottola,i bet they throw him to the wolves,this is going to get ugly..stay tuned[/b][/quote]I agree that it's gonna get ugly, but I don't think MJ's money is gonna get him very far against Sony... Witness the amount of debt he's already in. I think his lawyers will financially bleed him dry first. If there's ever a Hollywood comedy/drama/biography on the rise and fall of Michael Jackson (think "The People vs. Larry Flynt" or "Man on the Moon"), the scene described in article above will most definitely be included in the movie. Sad.

[loudist]

[quote] If you recall MJ broke the color barrior on MTV. There was a time when MTV wouldn't play black videos. There was a backlash. Michael Jackson came out with "Thriller" and they could no longer deny it. Michael Jackson pushed it and pushed it until they broke through. [/quote]Henry, you are eloquent but not factual in your arguement. Don't stoop to rewriteing facts or espousing bad information to prop up your opinion. The above quote is but only one example of the disinformation in your arguments.

[mars_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] If you recall MJ broke the color barrior on MTV. There was a time when MTV wouldn't play black videos. There was a backlash. Michael Jackson came out with "Thriller" and they could no longer deny it. Michael Jackson pushed it and pushed it until they broke through.[/b][/quote]Not quite - the story has it that Sony/CBS had to strong-arm MTV into playing MJ by threatening to pull all their product from the station.

[henryrobinett]

[quote] Henry, you are eloquent but not factual in your arguement. Don't stoop to rewriteing facts or espousing bad information to prop up your opinion. [/quote]Well it could be mis-facts, but PLEASE don't just say that. Show me how. This is as I recall it. I was there then and I was outraged that MTV wouldn't open it up to black artists. I remember MJ broke through this. Now don't just deny it. Show me where I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting wrongness, but please show me more than that. Re Lee - yes, as usual you're on point. But according to Clive Davis' book Dylan was a constant loss leader as was Miles Davis. I know it does not support my argument. But I need to show it's the truth I'm after not swaying the evidence in my favor. Clive said that there was a certain retinue of artists on the Columbia roster who were there because of credibility and merit; Dylan, Miles Davis and Glenn Gould were examples of folks who, though they consistently lost money, provided a certain credibility to the label. I'm sure it also depends how you view "loss". In the long run I'm certain Dylan and Miles have more than made up for any loss incurred. Now Lee, moot though it is, I object to EWF labeled as "disco". They certainly DID have some tunes that crossed over into that market, but they were not disco by any means. And I'm sure they were not cheap. But those were the days BEFORE the huge budgets we have now. Yes, for the times they were huge, but not by comparison. Columbia wasn't in the deep red as they are now and a few bad sales from EWF was no threat to them, as it is now. I think more than anything, what this episode shows, is that the industry is as stupid as it is arrogant. That a mega star (two including Carey - another artist I can't stand) can't keep from drowning and is stupid enough to spend that kind of money I have a hard time blaming anyone, in particular - except for whoever is in charge of this bullshit. This is the only major business I'm aware of, beside prize fighting, where the corporate leaders didn't get their degrees from Harvard Business School, but rather got their start in the back rooms of Tower Records, or from managing bands or producing records. Street tactics rather than business acumen. When I was on the roster of a small but meglomanical label in the 80s, things were said to me that I found entirely offensive, racicially speaking. The label heads just laughed. "Yeah well, the record business is the final bastion of racism in America", they told me. As if this were an excuse. But that's how music is run - racially.

[henryrobinett]

[quote]Originally posted by mars: [b] [quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] If you recall MJ broke the color barrior on MTV. There was a time when MTV wouldn't play black videos. There was a backlash. Michael Jackson came out with "Thriller" and they could no longer deny it. Michael Jackson pushed it and pushed it until they broke through.[/b][/quote]Not quite - the story has it that Sony/CBS had to strong-arm MTV into playing MJ by threatening to pull all their product from the station.[/b][/quote]What's the difference here? Oh, because it was SONY/CBS that means it wasn't Michael Jackson?

[teh dri]

puts on stupid voice: "whites a white guy like michael doing sticking his nose into this issue" can anyone take this fruitloop seriously? if he wasnt rich he would be in an asylum, glove/mask and child touching all absurd... as Mr T would say... "i pity da poor fool"

[Rog]

"Rog, What I object to is the hue and cry when a racial issue is brought up. There is STILL a lot of area to yet be covered regarding racism in America. There is STILL a lot of backlash in this country when the subject is brought up." Henry, I understand that there is a big problem with race over in the US. There are problems here too but they don't seem to be of the same magnitude. What 'hue & cry' are you objecting to, specifically? If someone brings up the subject of racism, what happens? "I hate to say it but people don't play the "race card" when things are going well for them. It just doesn't happen. The term "race card" is a pejorative as far as I'm concerned. It's a term used to make less of the issue. Put it in a nice little neat box and label it "bullshit"." I don't understand. So there isn't a problem with race when everything is rosy? I understand that people only take offence when offence is caused but this is an entirely different issue. MJ had 20+ years to change people's opinions and neglected to do so. His current problem isn't racism, it's making shit records which fail to sell and cost a fortune to produce and market. Therfore he cynically plays the race card. He plays the card but racism isn't a card, it's a very serious issue. "Although I appreciate the "n-word" rather than "nigger". Nigger is EXTREMELY offensive to me. I don't like it when black people say it either. I don't think the STING should be taken out of it by over use. As innovative as Leny Bruce was he is not my idea of a role model. But this has nothing to do with my annoyance. I'm annoyed by the attitude that this whole episode is ridiculous BECAUSE HE'S MICHAEL JACKSON." He's my role model ;) I understand that the word causes offence because it has power. Bruce sought to diminish it's power - let the fucking racists dream up another word. Sadly, it still has enormous power, partly because stupid writers type "n-word" instead of "nigger". "If you recall MJ broke the color barrior on MTV. There was a time when MTV wouldn't play black videos. There was a backlash. Michael Jackson came out with "Thriller" and they could no longer deny it. Michael Jackson pushed it and pushed it until they broke through." You make MJ seem like he was a one-man anti-racism crusader, that was hardly the case. If, instead of building his own private Disneyland, he spent his millions on promoting equality then maybe I'd go along with you. As it stands, I do not. At least we don't disagree entirely :D MJ can still go and fuck himself though :)

[Lee Flier]

Henry, I didn't actually characterize EWF as disco! But a lot of funk and R&B artists of the 70's had their biggest hits on the coattails of the disco era - like EWF, War, Parliament, etc. There was a lot of crossover there and those acts did get big budgets. The 70's were an extremely extravagant time for the recording biz. In fact, punk rock was to a large extent a rebellion against that whole thing - disco, "corporate rock", "art rock" and all the extravagances that went with them. I can't agree that there is any more racism in the music biz than anywhere else though. Anybody that can make a profit for the labels is in, and anybody who can't is out, period. Sure there are individual racist jerks in the industry, but in my experience there are a lot more of them in plain old corporate America. I've heard the phrase "last bastion of racism" (or sexism) applied to a lot of different companies and industries... I guess whatever you're in the middle of looks like it's the worst place to be. I'm sure there have probably been people who have denied me opportunities in this business because I'm female, but if that's the case I never noticed, I just go find another gig. I don't go looking for sexism because I think that's counterproductive. All it does is piss off the very people whose minds you want to change. There are no longer any laws on the books that prevent a woman or a black person from doing what they want to do - it's all about personal relations now, and nobody wants to deal with somebody who has a chip on their shoulder. I usually just file racists and sexists in a big round file called "jerks", of which there are unfortunately a lot (not only racists and sexists but all sorts of other power trippers and elitists and bullies), and the less attention we pay them the better, because jerks usually do whatever jerky thing they do, to get attention. --Lee

[henryrobinett]

Lee, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I don't look for racism, believe me. I'm the most easy person to get along with as far as the black white issue goes. My posts up to this point probably bear that out. I have often said, to many of my black friends as well, that there's only a brick wall there when you think there's brick wall. If you think of yourself as BLACK you're going to be treated as BLACK. I don't and conversely I don't look at white people as WHITE. But there are times when it's thrown in my face or I'm reminded how narrow certain people look at things that it really begins to piss me off. And I speak my mind when I'm pissed. Doesn't matter. I don't couch things covertly. If I'm upset with someone and can spot it, I say it outright. Now the fact that the industry, with my limited experience in it, could only look at me based on how I fit in my "demographic" was frustrating to say the least. Especialy when I preferred to define my demographic along musical lines. BUT I COULD FIND NO ONE ELSE WHO WOULD. All the label heads, lawyers, marketing people could see was that I was black. That's all. Didn't matter in the least how the music sounded. I was compared on my label to Robert Cray for christ sakes! Merely because he was black and played a stratocaster. If that's what people see, that's what people see, but that's not who I am and if that's what they SEE it's racism. This is NOT unusual. This may not be relevant to this case but it is my habit to shoot from experience rather than what I read or have heard, so much. Now if you were in a situation where people would only treat you, market you as it related to Bonnie Raitt, regardless of how your music sounded you might find it a little frustrating. Personally I've never been in a life situation beyond working in prison, where everything seems to be OK to talk in racially biased terms. I don't do it personally. Music is delineated in racial terms. I don't listen to music on racial terms, but a lot of people do. Some people only listen to black music. Some people only listen to white music. And you know, it seems to go beyond what would appear to be simple genres. What I have a very difficult time with is the disregard of white people towards these issues. It's as if, "Hey, been there, done that. We went through the 60s already, Fuck you. I have nothing to do with it." Well I'm tired and some times I get pissed. I don't care if some white guy doesn't like it. I've spent my whole fucking life making myself non-threatening to white people. I've had to learn to take the bottom out of my voice or the black outta my voice. No one every told me this, but I saw how threatening I was to white people, intuitively. It was no problem. I wanted to try and wade the racial divide because it was necessary to understand both sides. Well I get real hot under the collar when I find "the other side gives a fuck". What does it matter to the other side? Nothing. It doesn't concern them because they're not at risk.

[spokenward]

a couple of things, [quote][b]--Excerpted- Originally posted by Lee Flier: I don't see how anyone could spend the kind of dough that Michael Jackson spends on his records, and expect not to get dropped if the records don't sell. --Lee[/b][/quote]Lee nails it here. The modern entertainment business is only incidentally about entertainment. It's an accounting proposition played out over the product of artists. Labels drop artists for suprises. Those surprises are umptytimes more visible when there are more zeros in the investment. The point about "big budgets" though is maybe a bit askew. These big budgets don't flow to the artist. They flow to the machinery. At the expense of the artist. Only a fraction of that budget is invested in the production. Most of it is sprinkled on media, placements, and promotion. These "investments" are all future. The artist lives closer to right now. Woe to Bob Dylan if his label decides that they want to "cross him over". (they kinda tried in 1979 in the Christian markets that didn't really exist yet) I believe the music business is racist in that the ownership of production, distribution, and retail is controlled by so few. And so few of those look like their artists and consumers. Pat

[Lee Flier]

I hear you Henry, and I still call people out who are blatantly racist when I see it. It's just a lot of times I don't agree with what some people characterize as racist, which could easily be chalked up to other things. And yeah, I HAVE had people ask me whether I was into Bonnie Raitt or Heart or Joan Jett, as if I couldn't possibly have had male influences. I don't know, I just have to laugh at that because it's so ignorant that it's funny. It's almost like I can't believe they really said that in all seriousness. And usually when I laugh, they get all embarrassed about it. I do agree with you though about the point that while it seems OK for white artists to get into traditionally black genres, the reverse doesn't seem to be true. Guys like Robert Cray or Living Colour are a rarity, and I can totally see where if you're a black musician and you don't do rap or R&B or something considered to be "black music" you would probably get lumped in with those guys no matter how ludicrous that is. Or a label might not know what to do with you at all. Still... I always just kind of assumed that there weren't that many black rockers for example, simply because not many black guys WANTED to play rock. I went to junior high school (when I first started playing) in a VERY integrated school, it was literally about equally white, black, Hispanic and Asian, and there was a lot of sharing back and forth of music - there were some white funk guitar players, and my first rock band in jr. high had a black bassist and drummer. But for the MOST part everybody listened to and preferred the music that would fit their "race"... the white kids liked rock, the black kids liked funk, the Mexican kids liked Latin music and the Asian kids liked wussy easy listening. :D And I was certainly the only female electric guitarist - the other girls in my school who were musical wanted to be disco or folk divas. Or they played in the classical orchestra. You know, "acceptable" girl things to do. So sometimes I think that people mostly just behave how they are expected to behave, and most people therefore expect to see the expected stereotypes because, mostly, they do. And Henry, maybe you and me are just "different", we just were born to be bridge builders and we wouldn't fit the mold no matter what. Maybe if you were white you'd have gone off and become a Chinese classical player, and if I were male I'd have become a feminist and played to the lesbian folk crowd. Just because it's not what's expected of us, y'know. :D --Lee

[henryrobinett]

We can argue until the cows come home, it won't change a thing. You have a point of view. I have a point of view. The world is not going to change until you look at my point of view seriously and I do the same with yours. Same things applies to the mid east: Iraq/US, Israel/Palistine, India/Pakistan. You can believe me or not, but I've spent my life understanding the various "other side" POVs. I'm surrounded by it in life and have been since I was born. My friends and associates, wife's family and associates, whole communities of Rush Limbaughites. I get along with everybody because I make an effort to understand. It's one of the few things we can do as responsible human beings. It's also a common courtesy. My brother-in-law, who makes his debut performance this week on the new season of "Big Brother" btw, is a case in point. Great guy! But boy is he from the Rush mold. Always talking to me about the Armenians and racial quotas and reverse racism - the angry white man. I hear this shit all the time. And you know what? I LISTEN. I rarely am accorded the same courtesy. This anger is hardwired I'm afraid to say. It comes from life experience. "Nigger" is an afront. Just realize if you use it to my face your liable to get punched. Just know that. There is history in that word and in this issue that you may not begin to understand. Lenny Bruce notwithstanding.

[henryrobinett]

Lee, I was a black rocker in school. I played better than anybody as well. I've known MANY black rockers, but we don't fit the mold. You can be a black bass player in a rock band or maybe even a black drummer, but god forbid if you play lead guitar! As recently as '96 when I was teaching in Vienna there was an interesting "incident". There was this semi-famous shredder and an somewhat more than famous brilliant guitarist. For the life of me I can't remember the junior shredders name but the senior was Shawn Lane. We became rather fast friends. We would have these jams sessions in the form of concerts semi-regularly. At times they included Tal Bergman, then drummer for Billy Idol. But there was a group we put together that just happened to be a power trio of black cats, including myself. We did a show of Hendrix tunes and these two other guitar players joined in. A lot of folks including Mr. Shredder, couldn't handle it and found every possible way of criticizing it. "I guess you guys proved black guys can't rock!" Shawn who knew though and refused to be baited. He paid me many compliments more than once, something he doesn't do easily I might add. Now I'm a jazz guitarist but I started out playing rock. There was a backlash always from certain factions. Intimidation? I don't know. But I have always been a bridge builder or tried to be. Lee, it's you and me.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b]Lee, I was a black rocker in school. I played better than anybody as well. I've known MANY black rockers, but we don't fit the mold. You can be a black bass player in a rock band or maybe even a black drummer, but god forbid if you play lead guitar![/b][/quote]LOL yeah what's up with that? The silly thing is that most of the white shredder guitar players that I went to school with, worshipped Hendrix! But I don't remember any black lead guitar players either. And actually, the bassist and drummer I played with weren't rockers, or at least they hadn't been before. They played funk normally, but when I wanted to put a band together I wanted the best players in the school, and that happened to be these guys. They were head and shoulders above everybody in terms of chops, feel and tastefulness, so far as I could see. They had the chops but they were laid back about it and didn't overdo it like the rock shredders. So I asked them to play and I think they did it out of amusement more than anything, like they couldn't believe some skinny white girl was asking them to play rock songs. :D And they teased me about it, too. But, we ended up having a really good time, and in retrospect I wish there were some recordings of us because I'll bet we were pretty good. Actually nowadays, at least in Atlanta there are a lot more black rockers (including lead guitarists) and nobody seems to think it's a big deal. Maybe they aren't topping the charts but I guess I mostly ignore the charts these days anyway, they are so off in left field it's ridiculous. [quote][b] Now I'm a jazz guitarist but I started out playing rock. There was a backlash always from certain factions. Intimidation? I don't know. But I have always been a bridge builder or tried to be. Lee, it's you and me.[/b][/quote]Yeah... and I guess what I'm saying is that we ask for what we get. :D You say that you've spent your whole life making yourself less threatening to white people. Well, you wouldn't have cared about doing that, nor married a white woman whose brother is into Rush Limbaugh :D , if it wasn't in your nature to want to confuse the opposition. I've spent a lot of time and effort defusing the usual male/female issues too - I do NOT want to come off in any way like either a ball busting Joan Jett type or a "sex kitten" or whatever. I just don't fit any female stereotype and have gone out of my way to make sure people know that. And yeah, I get shit for it. I sometimes get sick of guys (and even women) thinking that I must be gay or I'm not very "ladylike" or whatever they think. But, it's who I am, I'm a bridge builder and I started down this road of my own choice and I'm on it for the long haul. So whenever you get pissed, just think you could have played it safe and played to the stereotype. I think both you, and the rest of the world would have lost a lot if you'd done that. --Lee

[Duhduh]

Sorry, Henry. Earth, Wind, and Fire were great but I dont think you can put them in the same category as Miles Davis and Bob Dylan. If I were a record exec I would of dropped EWF and kept Dylan and Miles in a second! I am not demeaning the racism issue in anyway. But I really dont think that's what is happening here. I see it as the backlash of Sony and Virgin records failure in trying to produce another U2/Aerosmith with MJ and Mariah. The difference between Mariah and MJ is that Mariah got dropped with the label owing [i]her[/i] money.

[StoneKnife]

She was paid twenty-seven million dollars. It cost 1,800 Sony people their jobs in cutbacks to cover it. When will people get Mariah Carey off the goddamn cross? She was not ripped off or crucified and nobody owes her a freakin' thing. Jeesus. Anyway, the discussion got too broad to handle as we got to the above diversionary post. I wanted to say that the matter at hand is the timing of this complaint against Sony coming as it does and how it took twenty years and a flop record to bring the issue to Jocko's attention. As far as the racism deal goes, I see so much racism on BET's comedy programming (or reverse racism if that term has more meaning) that it would be blasted off the air in one night if you changed the 'jokes' from "White people... (this and that) to "Black People..." this and that. I can't imagine the blasting that would erupt from Al Sharpton and the usualself-styled 'community leader' media nabobs. And since [i]those [/i] comedians use the n-term like it's going out of style- does that make [i]them[/i] more racist than a Sony guy that uses it once? Or their "white people" jokes any less so? The use of a word can be done without the intent of racism. I agree that the majors can and have robbed lots of people regardless of age race and gender. So, honkey [i]PLEASE[/i]! ;)

[Duhduh]

[quote]Originally posted by StoneKnife: [b]She was paid twenty-seven million dollars. It cost 1,800 Sony people their jobs in cutbacks to cover it. When will people get Mariah Carey off the goddamn cross? She was not ripped off or crucified and nobody owes her a freakin' thing. Jeesus. Anyway, the discussion got too broad to handle as we got to the above diversionary post.[/b][/quote]Umm. You completely missed my point here. What I was saying is that Mariah Carey got dropped from her label for the same reasons as Michael Jackson. Way too high costs and way too low sales. Is she holding press conferences saying how she was a victim of sexism/racism? No! Because they owed [i]her[/i] money. If Sony owed Michael Jackson money I dont think he would be saying what he is saying. Was that clear?

[koolkid]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]The music industry is racist!?!? I suppose next they'll be saying the music industry is sexist... Seriously though, MJ is getting too eccentric. That whole 'good, bad, ugly' sign is kinda freaky. At least amend it to say "The good but ugly". Unless maybe MJ used an old picture of himself from before he had his face hacked up. I'm with Phil. The die-hard MJ fans will rant over this, but most people are going to see this as the ego-inflated ramblings of a pop star-turned-weirdo who is on his way out to pasture. I have no love for the music industry, but MJ seriously needs to get a grip on something resembling reality. Of course, if he could get his little sister to rally behind his cause, things might start to get kinda interesting... :idea: [/b][/quote]we are all sexist, thats how kids are born : )

[wildabstaol.com]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b]MJ has got some serious balls to be busting on Tommy Mottola. [/b][/quote]Amen, brother. It's going to get REAL interesting. As per another recent Jackson thread, all Sony has to do is foreclose on MJ and he's gone. Also, notice how Michael only publicly associated with white people for years -- Liz, Liza, McCauley, etc. and now that he's FINISHED, he's hanging with Al Sharpton and Johnnie Cochran and crying "racist"! P.S. -- I only wish the music business WERE racist, then we wouldn't have to listen to all of that retarded, absolute fucking bullshit rap & hip-hop music they play on MTV. :)

[wildabstaol.com]

[quote]Originally posted by koolkid: [b] michael jackson has alot of money and a lot of clout,[/b][/quote]Uh...he has neither. That's why he's doing all this embarassing stuff now.

[koolkid]

[quote]Originally posted by wildabst@aol.com: [b] [quote]Originally posted by koolkid: [b] michael jackson has alot of money and a lot of clout,[/b][/quote]Uh...he has neither. That's why he's doing all this embarassing stuff now.[/b][/quote]well,lets do a little math here,jackson owned half (he had already sold half to sony) of the beatles catalog which was an investment of 20 million in 1985,that half is now estimated to be worth over 400 million dollars,he used that as collateral on a 200 million dollar loan,so,even with a hostile forclosure,he still looks to come out ,i would guestamate, 100 to 200 million in the clear,not to mention the fact that i would put his net worth, not to mention future receivables in the mid 9 figures as he usually ranks with madonna in world wide sales and thats about where shes at,im also not surprised that his last album flopped given trends in the record industry,hell more than make up for it with concerts,promotions etc.. as far as clout..this guy is worshipped not only by fans but more importantly by fellow musicians,producers and industry LEGENDS who have seen him as an inspiration for 30 plus years if thats not clout than nothing is.

[Jedi]

[quote]Originally posted by Henryrobinett Lee, I was a black rocker in school. I played better than anybody as well. I've known MANY black rockers, but we don't fit the mold. You can be a black bass player in a rock band or maybe even a black drummer, but god forbid if you play lead guitar! [/quote]And may the heavens fall if you sing and play guitar. Man, if I hear one more Lenny Kravitz comparison or Living Colour comparison I'm going to go ApeSH*T. I don't own any Living Colour records, not one. I've got Kravitz' stuff, but he's not an influence at all. Black Rocker backlash for sure. Maybe, we should call it the Rocker BLACKlash. It's crazy. As far as Michael. Bullshit. Pure and Simple. I cannot ignore the extreme hypochrisy in what he's doing. Can some good come of it? I hope so, I'm a Black Rocker. :D Jedi

[Skip_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by StoneKnife: [b]Yeah! She only got $27 million dollars when she severed her contract with them, which in turn caused the layoff of 1,800 employees. Boy she sure got shafted.[/b][/quote]StoneKnife She didn`t `sever her contract`, she got dropped, like several other artists mentioned above. The big payoff was so that she wouldn`t make a big legal fuss about it. So she gets 27mil-small change for having to sleep with the guy in charge of your label. and what did the guy do? saddled her with a bunch of ballads that sold well with listeners 15 years older than she was (after all so was he), a nonstop touring and promo schedule that fried her brains and a movie that bombed. And need I add, the 27 mil gets hacked up by all the forces at work in the Mariah Carey organization, also as several other big budget acts mentioned above. She ain`t gonna be walking home with all that money. So now she`s got no label and a possibly ruined career. Suddenly 27 mil doesn`t seem like that much, eh?

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BTW, several people wondered what happened to MJ after `Thriller`? it`s a matter of what stopped happening. Quincy Jones.

[mr. rob]

I think MJ's credibility has been damaged irreperably by the scandals which have plagued him the last decade: the child abuse scandal, plastic surgery to give him caucasian facial features, "bad touch"-ing himself in his dance moves as his face slowly collapses before your eyes etc. So, he comes off as a sort of creepy guy, maybe a bit naive, or maybe just too shell shocked to give a damn any more. His choice of words which were quoted by Curve are indeed rediculous, unless of course he is being sensational so he can get people's attention. Its a common tactic, say something outrageous about some group of people or if your Louis Farrakan say it about Jews and you will make the 10 o'clock news, Jay Leno may even crack a joke about what you say. Buried beneath the hyperbole and far flung allegations is a strong point; Record labels use their power and influence to make bad contracts which rip off artists, many of whom are black. If he had simply said that much though, I doubt he would have stirred this conversation.

[mr. rob]

I think MJ's credibility has been damaged irreperably by the scandals which have plagued him the last decade: the child abuse scandal, plastic surgery to give him caucasian facial features, "bad touch"-ing himself in his dance moves as his face slowly collapses before your eyes etc. So, he comes off as a sort of creepy guy, maybe a bit naive, or maybe just too shell shocked to give a damn any more. His choice of words which were quoted by Curve are indeed rediculous, unless of course he is being sensational so he can get people's attention. Its a common tactic, say something outrageous about some group of people or if your Louis Farrakan say it about Jews and you will make the 10 o'clock news, Jay Leno may even crack a joke about what you say. Buried beneath the hyperbole and far flung allegations is a strong point; Record labels use their power and influence to make bad contracts which rip off artists, many of whom are black. If he had simply said that much though, I doubt he would have stirred this conversation.

[wildabstaol.com]

[b] [quote]Originally posted by StoneKnife: [qb] She didn`t `sever her contract`, she got dropped, like several other artists mentioned above. The big payoff was so that she wouldn`t make a big legal fuss about it. So she gets 27mil-small change for having to sleep with the guy in charge of your label. and what did the guy do? saddled her with a bunch of ballads that sold well with listeners 15 years older than she was (after all so was he), a nonstop touring and promo schedule that fried her brains and a movie that bombed... So now she`s got no label and a possibly ruined career. Suddenly 27 mil doesn`t seem like that much, eh?[/b][/quote]You have your facts wrong. She got the settlement from Virgin. It was negotiated -- she wasn't "dropped". They wanted her off the label and so did she. She was married and in your words, "slept with", the president of Sony, which was prior to the Virgin deal. Two different scenarios. Also, she does have a new multi-album label deal, signed for around $20 million. She'll have hits again and everything will return to normal.