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The following is copyright 2002 by Robert Scott Lefsetz, and reprinted with the permission of the author (thanks Bob!). Interesting... ---------------------------- I hope this is a trial balloon, because this is fucking NUTS!!! In case you missed it, in today's WSJ it is stated that the record companies have decided to switch tactics. To stop going soley against the services, and sue USERS!! Now this same meeting was supposed to produce two companies that were going to cease using independent promotion and that didn't happen, so hopefully this won't happen either. Actually, I hope the RIAA companies DO sue the users. Because then, TRULY, all fucking hell will break loose. Then the users will ORGANIZE. Then they'll boycott the business. Then the labels will be in trouble they only DREAMED of. Once again, at this late date, the problem is the people making these decisions are basing them purely on THEORY! Not only are there questions as to the degree that online piracy is stifling sales, it is clear that those in charge of authorizing these services have NEVER USED THEM! Yup, get a high speed connection, a set of speakers including a subwoofer for a little over $100, start downloading music and you'll be positively EUPHORIC! I know, because I'm an example. I was troubled by Napster initially. More than troubled, I was OUTRAGED! I saw it as STEALING! And you know what, it IS stealing. But then I used the service. I got an adrenaline rush that is absent from the experience listening to the dreck being foisted by the Big Five on a daily basis. To think of a song, and then to be able to hear it in a matter of minutes. It's STAGGERING! To be able to transfer said songs to a portable device and then take HOURS AND HOURS of music ANYWHERE, it's INCREDIBLE! I put an album onto my iPod in ten seconds. A thousand songs in ten minutes. I use it for HOURS every day. I've taken my music collection with me to Aspen, Mammoth, never mind the Santa Monica Mountains on a regular basis. I'm SOLD! And these assholes would be too if they used the SERVICE! They say they can't compete with free. That's not it at all, they can't compete with something THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND!! Isn't that the first rule of war, know thy enemy?? Well, the record labels get a big fat zero on this one. Hell, they're like the phone companies lamenting the advent of wireless. So, what did the landline companies do??? They BOUGHT THE WIRELESS SYSTEMS! God, that's not too complicated. Rather than trying to stand in the way of progress, why not JUMP IN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE! It's not about competing with free. That's knee-jerk politics. Look at the bottled water business. THEY compete with free. And "Consumer Reports" says their product in most cases is INFERIOR TO TAP WATER! Yup, ever hear of MARKETING! Or INNOVATION! It's like Microsoft trying to insist everybody use MS DOS. Hell, if they go to Windows, ANYBODY will be able to use a computer. Companies will start peopling the Internet. Microsoft won't be able to get ALL of the revenue. But, thinking about it, the revenue pot will GROW, and their share, however diminished, will GROW! Record companies might not be able to charge in excess of fifteen bucks for an album, but oh, they'll be able to sell so many more. But no, the labels don't want the future. They want to kill KaZaA, and get us to use MusicNet and Pressplay. With less than total wares with restricted use. They say see, nobody will pay, when the public won't embrace their offerings. This would be like computer companies saying that NOBODY wants PDAs (personal digital assistants) because Apple's Newton failed. Yeah, it failed because it SUCKED! Palm came up with a cheaper, better product, and sales went through the ROOF! Hell, you've got to give people a reasonable PRODUCT! These online trading services WANT to make deals with the labels. But the labels WON'T! They don't even want to RISK the future! They could have been collecting money for YEARS now, but no, they'd rather get NOTHING! They'd rather stand on PRINCIPLE! Hell, it would be as if IBM sued Apple for inventing the personal computer. You can't fuck with MAINFRAMES! But, IBM didn't see a need...oh, eventually they did. And eventually the labels will wake up to the error in their ways. When they realize not only that they cannot win this battle they're fighting, but that they SHOULDN'T! That only by making peace with the file-traders will revenue TRULY shoot through the roof. God, I thought we decided all this. I thought this was over in 2000. But no, Tommy Mottola still isn't file-trading. Doug Morris or Zach Horowitz either. Hell, I know other bigwigs in the operation don't trade, because THEY'VE TOLD ME!!! Hell, you'd be stunned if you eavesdropped. These people all over "Billboard", they know NOTHING about not only online music, but computers and technology either. They're fighting with BOTH HANDS BEHIND THEIR BACK. They can't win. This is utter bullshit. People want music. Give them what they want. And know that online music is the BEST thing that ever happened to you. It allows people to SAMPLE! But no, you'd rather kill this outlet and continue to pay the indie promoters to not get your records on the radio. RIDICULOUS! Please, please, please. Before you guys utter another word, get the geek in your backroom to come to your house and set up your computer. Spend a weekend doing nothing but downloading and listening. Then you'll get HOOKED! And you'll realize the system is IMPERFECT! And that if you only PERFECTED IT, free services would fall by the wayside.
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Somehow, it doesn't really surprise me. The RIAA has become increasingly out of touch with both the artists it claims to be looking out for, and the public they're trying to sell to. If the recording industry was subject to the same kind of scrutiny as the industries/corporations who have recently been caught with their greedy little hands in the cookie jar, would an anti-trust lawsuit be far behind? Since the industry has consolodated into basically 5 players, and the companies are managed by career executives from outside the world of music, they have managed to alienate everyone but the bean-counters and lawyers. This is both directly and indirectly responsible for their recent downturn in sales, and more heavy-handed tactics will only dig the hole even deeper. I'm with you, Craig, in hoping these clueless bastards bring the situation to a head by suing users of the online services. The public outcry will be phenomenal, and should snowball into an industry shake-up that can only be better for recording artists and the music buying public. Scott
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I wonder. At Kent State they killed a couple students- I don't think arresting them would be a big deal. They imprisoned millions during the Clinton era, and not much was said. I haven't yet found the thrill of downloading music. It's a curiousity still to me. I did quite a bit when I first got the computer last year, and found some cool internet radio stations, but I didn't find enough of interest to keep at it. I do a lot better at the Ashland OR public library. Whoever buys for that has incredible knowledge and taste. I also hear interesting stuff on Jefferson Public Radio, but still it's rare to hear anything I track down and buy. I'm really not the best example of a music consumer, unless I'm an example of one who doesn't buy much because not too much music out there is of interest to me. I hate the Big 5 as much as the next guy (actually I like the next guy OK), and I trust Anderton to have a clue about what's going on. I wish I could believe music listeners would band together in some kind of political force, but then when huge numbers of music fans get together, it's rare that I enjoy the noises off the stage.

A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

 

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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didnt alan kay invent the "personal computer" at xerox and not woz @ apple? i dont download music. my connection is far too slow. when i smoked crack [uh, had cable] i downloaded the FUCK out of music... but not ONE SINGLE SONG was released by a major. every single one was put out independantly FREEly available provided by the bands themselves. and there is some KILLER music out there. go after the users... government tries to do that with the drug war. i hear its big business. maybe they are onto something.

alphajerk

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"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]didnt alan kay invent the "personal computer" at xerox and not woz @ apple? [/b][/quote]Also the GUI (graphical user interface - windowing OS's) and the mouse came out of Xerox PARC. Woz and Jobs did a Henry Ford and made the technology affordable (at least for the weekend enthusiast). Funny, Gates did to Jobs and Woz what Jobs and Woz did to Xerox. As for the download thing the record companies don't have clue. Until we have some head honchos who understand the technology its gonna be a long fight. If you and I can make music CD's at home for a couple of bucks why can't the big 5? RobT

RobT

 

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat

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I've downloaded a shitload of old '50s' R&B - the REAL R&B - off of Napster, Kazaa, Winmx etc. These artists were fucked by their labels in the first place. Doesn't make it right for me or anyone else to repeat the process. However, if I ever met any of these guys, OR if there was a way to reimburse, I'd be more than happy to throw a healthy tip their way ;)
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[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]didnt alan kay invent the "personal computer" at xerox and not woz @ apple? i dont download music. my connection is far too slow. when i smoked crack [uh, had cable] i downloaded the FUCK out of music... but not ONE SINGLE SONG was released by a major. every single one was put out independantly FREEly available provided by the bands themselves. and there is some KILLER music out there. go after the users... government tries to do that with the drug war. i hear its big business. maybe they are onto something.[/b][/quote]Fires up a big phatty of kind and passes it to Alpha because he's always right(Well, maybe not, but he always gives you something to think about). :thu:
I really don't know what to put here.
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Craig I've heard you express similar ideas before and now I think you've hit the nail on the head. The people at the top are out of touch. I'm not sure what needs to be done but at least you have identified a big part of the problem. BTW I wish people would keep their fact corrections until the end of the thread unless it's important. I really don't care who invented the mouse right now.
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Craig, Can't you get yourself hired on at the RIAA to fix things up?!??!! It's not about the money. It's about being able to get what I want, when I want it. I have a show on community radio. We're too small to have a big library. When I'm preparing for my show, I download more than half the songs I need from the net. It's great, and it exposes people to new music which is the whole point. Like you say, if I think about a song, I can get it. When I read the paper, and hear about a new artist, I can go find some of their songs and decide if I like it. When a friend tells me about something they've heard, I can download it and see what's up myself. I make mixed CDs for people who book clubs and festivals in my area and the artists get booked! One AD told me that she was going to end up booking everyone on the damn CD! Why doesn't the record industry understand that this is the issue? I am not lying when I say that I'd pay a fee per song or a monthly subscription fee to get guaranteed good copies of this material. But I'm not going to pay for flanged/phased sounding songs with compromised quality, clunky delivery systems, and lousy selection. And that's my rant.... dave
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I am so glad about this!!! Stealing is stealing, and people have a right to "recover" their stolen property. In general, i think that people have come to be deluded into thinking their is nothing morally or legally wrong about services such as kazaa, b/c it is so easy to use them. I have actually had people tell me that! They say, "if it was wrong, their would be something stopping me from doing this." Hey, I am no fan of a police state, and everyone knows that all of the "wars on ____" are bs. I guess I'm just flustered about the fact that so many people have no respect for their fellow human beings. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THE PERSON YOU'RE TAKING IT FROM IS A PRICK!

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I'm with you GT3. Stealing is stealing. The same rules should apply. Just because it's high tech and duplicatable and difficult to enforce doesn't mean illegal downloaders should play with immunity. I think illegal downloaders SHOULD be prosecuted to the letter of the law. Flame suit on stun.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Nor do they have the right to charge for it, if they ripped off the artist to begin with. It's like a hypocritical debauched parent giving a morality lecture to the kids- who's buying it?

A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

 

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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It has gotten BAD!!! I was driving around North Tampa the other day, and I saw a kid who had setup tables and a tent by the side of the road. He was selling r&b and rap cd's he had "ripped" off of the internet. He even has artwork! And this kid was about 18. Also I was on the USF campus, and some jamaican kids had setup a table filled w/ ripped reggae, soca, and the like. And the administration had approved this crap. What the hell?!!

Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"-

www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php

 

The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project"

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henryrobinett: I just went to download.com and looked up the KaZaa program. Last week over 2 MILLION people downloaded the program. In Total more than 91 MILLION people have downloaded and I assume are using it. I said MILLION. How do you propose to prosecute these people?
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Well it will never happen because of what I said in my previous post, you can't prosecute millions of people and you can't just single out 2 or 3 million people. The courts would still be clogged for a 100 years with people busted for illegal downloading. Yes Mr GT3, you're under arrest for copyright infringement and your case will come to trial in 2035 at 9:00 a.m., don't be late. 91 Million people have downloaded KaZaa, that's only one program, there's hundreds more out there. Obviously there is a problem but this midieval idea of rounding up all the "thiefs" is ridiculous and will never happen. Listen to Craig.
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[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]henryrobinett: I just went to download.com and looked up the KaZaa program. Last week over 2 MILLION people downloaded the program. In Total more than 91 MILLION people have downloaded and I assume are using it. I said MILLION. How do you propose to prosecute these people?[/b][/quote]Kill them.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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How could you even kill that many people? The logistics are overwhelming. How about something like this in every major newspaper? [b]If you have ever downloaded copyrighted material please report to your National Euthanasia Center on July 4th[/b] Think that would work?
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[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]How could you even kill that many people? The logistics are overwhelming. [/b][/quote]Why in the hell do you think H-Bombs were invented? When there are too many people to kill, nuke 'em.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]The following is copyright 2002 by Robert Scott Lefsetz. Interesting... ---------------------------- But then I used the service. I got an adrenaline rush that is absent from the experience listening to the dreck being foisted by the Big Five on a daily basis. To think of a song, and then to be able to hear it in a matter of minutes. It's STAGGERING! To be able to transfer said songs to a portable device and then take HOURS AND HOURS of music ANYWHERE, it's INCREDIBLE! I put an album onto my iPod in ten seconds. A thousand songs in ten minutes. I use it for HOURS every day. I've taken my music collection with me to Aspen, Mammoth, never mind the Santa Monica Mountains on a regular basis. I'm SOLD! And these assholes would be too if they used the SERVICE![/b][/quote]THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, CRAIG!!! File sharing should be every musician's dream come true! When you build the better mouse trap, etc, etc. The ability to think of some song you have not heard in years, and then ten minutes later, be listening to it, really is intoxicating. It's a wonderful thing. It promotes art. It advances the art form. This is vital in such a dead industry, that has grown so fat and lazy over the years. And, so apathetic toward the artists, and focused on the bottom line. Those who feel this is costing them profits, need to stop looking at the short-term, and start considering the long-term. The medium is still in it's 'formative' stage. It's up to us to be innovative enough to see how the artist can benifit from MP3-sharing. If you think that the MP3 revolution will hurt your career, consider what will happen to it if the status-quo is maintained...

Super 8

 

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[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b][/qb][/quote]Why in the hell do you think H-Bombs were invented? When there are too many people to kill, nuke 'em.[/b][/QUOTE] Are you some kind of insane mental case? Is Dix holding you at gunpoint making you type this stuff? I can't believe I'm reading this shit!

Super 8

 

Hear my stuff here

 

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Geezzzzzz!!! OUT OF TOUCH is an understatement when it comes to the RIAA and their knowledge of innovative technologies. The bean-counters and lawyers have consumed the industry; plain common sense and comprehensive skills in operational procedure have been shoved out the door. An earlier mention of the corporate players, who are not music business oriented, sums it all up. EVERYBODY wants to wear the SUIT and nobody wants to get their hands dirty; OR LEARN ANY NEW TRICKS OF THE TRADE. Here is the typical mentality of those lagging behind in the dinosaur age; [b]"Duh, which button do I push to get this thing to play????????????? Intenet Radio, uh, what's a download??? Hey, how long does it take to transfer a file on a 28K modem; I've got a computer, hell I bought one of the first ones they made!!! Man, they sure don't build em' like they used to and I bought ALL the software I needed to run my business; if I try to UPGRADE all these systems it'd cost a fortune. Let's hire another 50 blood sucking lawyers to make sure ONE college kid doesn't break the bank!" [/b] RIAA buy into the NEW MARKET, oh my, someone might actually have to take a break from their Garden Parties and use their brain for a change.... instead :evil: they just use their hard core tactics to try to squash the competition before it becomes a problem. I was opposed to, outraged, and intimidated as an owner of copyrights by Napster's massive file sharing development that flooded college campus grounds, among other access markets; yet, in the same essence, I was very intrigued by the genius of this kid that rapidly gained recognition for his creation. I, too, would have rolled out the payroll and offered this kid top dollar to bring his genius levels in modern technology to the RIAA; instead the technology is out there now, and new clones are formed routinely. RIAA will be chasing these guys around and around and around until they are so dizzy they drop. Instead of finding a cure, they are putting bandaids on all the boo boo's trying to stop the bleeding. Internet Marketing and Radio has cut deep into their chops and they are running scared. In RIAA's desperation to get a grip on things they are trying to manipulate the laws in Congress, by buying politicians, so that laws prohibit activities or charge such gross operational fees that the average guy will be forced to fold. I suggest that ALL internet music marketing professionals keep a keen eye on new bills being submitted to Congress; Napster is just a drop in the bucket compared to how far they will go to stop Internet Marketing. There have been some pretty heavy attacks on Internet Radio being wagered in Congress and a small army of involved Internet experts will soon wear thin fighting corporate ICONS. RIAA does not intend to lose any ground and they are willing to stop at nothing to keep their hold on the Record Industry. Just a mention of thought; RIAA should still consider offering Napster's brainchild a job for it is he that would be able to develop an antidote for the market that he flooded with file sharing. Clones can only reproduce what they were programmed to do....... The creator holds the key to further enhancing the product.

You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man.

 

Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon

 

Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music"

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stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... oh fuck off :p

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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A thought: Stealing IS stealing. That's true whether you are stealing music from an artist without paying a royalty or whether you're deducting "new technology" fees for compact disc replication from a recording artist's royalties. My problem with the RIAA is that they don't give a damn about artists. Nor should they. The hypocrisy in this is that they say they're speaking on behalf of the artists. Do they speak for any of you? They do not speak for me. Is internet piracy destroying the recording industry - or is it the fact that you can't sign 300 acts and expect the 4-5 that have a hit record to float the company? Or the fact that NO major has been attempting to develop any acts over the last. Think about large profitable tours for a second. Who have been the big money makers over the last couple of years? Well established acts, The Stones, The Eagles, Jimmy Buffet etc. Acts that DEVELOPED their audiences over time and have a successful career to show for it. Think of acts like Bruce Springsteen who would have been dropped if he signed as a new artist now because his first album didn't sell very well. He (and a pretty smart manager if I remember correctly) very carefully cultivated Springsteen until he reached the peak of his success. Artists survive off of audience allegience. They survive off of very PERSONAL connections that people have with their songs. It's hard to have a deep personal connection with a one hit wonder whose song is shoved down your throat once or twice every hour for a couple of months. The record industry has been living on a dinosaur business model for a while now. Look at Mariah Carrey. Let's lose $50 million on a one album flop and fire 1000 people from our HMV chain because of "internet piracy". Not bad business practice. But internet piracy. Not lack of worthwile artists or material - but internet piracy. Let's not take pay cuts for our ridiculously overpayed top brass - let's instead save money by firing 1000 employees making variations of minimum wage. Frankly, most artists don't need a major label. If recording studios survive - it will be because they have the support of artists. If artists survive, it will be because they have the support of an audience. A devoted audience has to be worked for and developed. They don't become long term supporters overnight. Getting back to the RIAA. They're clutching at straws going after consumers. They could embrace the technology and make money. They could offer an all inclusive INEXPENSIVE and reliable site with unlimited downloads and people would use it. People inherently WANT to try to do the right thing. But they're also not going to pay $20/month for what they could just as easily get for free. They're also not going to pay $17.99 for a cd when they can buy a 100 pack of cdrs for under $40. The RIAA could try to change their tactics or they could sell you "cds" that don't play in your computer. By the way (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this whole post anyway). When digital makes a perfect copy of an original and when no one seems to even be able to define what constitutes "ownership" - how long can current copyright law survive? Just wondering.
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I guess we ought to round up all those Ole Timers with their reel to reels packed with recorded albums, oh...don't forget all those cassettes, DCC's, MD, DAT, CD's, ect. I say if you've never recorded an album onto a cassette.....flame on with your "stealing is stealing" mantra. But I really don't think any of us can. When corporate America steals, in the form of inflated everything, its fine. But when Johnny Cassette downloads a MP3.....HE'S GOIN TO JAIL!!!!!! How ludicrous is that? Procecute the real bootleggers who put out unauthorized albums for SALE. They could make a mint just in the UAE alone. Nevermind Russia and other places I've seen mass bootlegging for sale in a public mall or market. Just my opinion......and if you don't like it.....HIGH NOON IN THE STREET!!!! I'll come loaded with my Rio!!!!! :)
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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originally posted by alphajerk: [b]stealing is stealing nah nah ni nah nah... oh fuck off[/b] Alphajerk, if this was directed at me, perhaps you didn't read the part where I said: [b]I was opposed to, outraged, and intimidated as an owner of copyrights by Napster's massive file sharing development that flooded college campus grounds, among other access markets; yet, in the same essence, I was very intrigued by the genius of this kid that rapidly gained recognition for his creation. I, too, would have rolled out the payroll and offered this kid top dollar to bring his genius levels in modern technology to the RIAA[/b] I do NOT condone STEALING!!! The ARTISTS are the CORE of entertainment and they should be WELL KEPT and compensated for their contributions. If I thought that I would never make any money at writing songs; why would I write??? It's simple; starve the writer and the artist and the ARTS die! Without the ARTS, THERE IS NO MONEY FOR ANYONE IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY! BOO HOO!!! As far as Napster goes, this prodigy of a kid who tapped into the streaming technologies of the ever so POWERFUL internet; he was probably some GEEK kid that didn't have a friend in school, so he used the only resource he knew to gain popularity... HIS BRAIN. He probably did not have a clue as the impact it would have on the music industry. It was not until his genius was discovered by a sophisticated Music Attorney and an executive of Alta Vista that his threat became well publicized. A team of professionals dumped 13 million dollars into the project to further develop the technology; I promise you that for these professionals to drop 13 million, they were seeking a way to tighten the loop to where they would eventually be able to generate profits. Had the RIAA taken notice of the technology at hand, they could have possibly discovered new ways to present music to a much broader audience. Instead, they went in with their attorneys and their suitcoats and crushed the evolution of internet streaming technology... Then to top it all off, the did EXACTLY what the were accusing Napster of doing....... They STOLE the technology developed by the brainchild of Napster and delled it out to players willing to DIVVI up the POT; MP3.com and likewise. It was NOT about supporting the ARTISTS, as suggested, because the RIAA made sure to include a hefty portion of fees to be paid to THEIR OWN bank accounts when pay services were introduced. When the Napster issue was still young, I contacted RIAA with a suggestion of protecting individual music compilations during the digital recording process that would have an auto shut down after so many times of playing unless a key were purchased to unlock the file... it's called encryption; a very recognized word in modern technology. RIAA scuffed their noses at the mere thought of someone offering advice; I was told that their attorneys were handling the issue. They do not want to MEET THE DEMANDS OF CHANGE; they want time to wait for them. People are sick and tired of the bureaucracy built inside of the Music Industry and Internet Technologies have opened the doors wide for competition. The already established artists are finding that they don't need to sign extended record deals; they make as much money selling direct. Their fans follow them, not the labels. New artists can place their own music online without pouring their hearts out to get discovered; if they already have a following, which is a prerequisite to obtaining interest from an A & R at any label, then the Artist can provide their audiences with their web address and mention of online sales of their materials....... THEY CUT THE RECORD LABELS OUT OF IT, and therefore can charge less of a fee for the materials. People surfing the net can pick and choose what they WANT to listen to and if they like what they hear....... Then they can PURCHASE a hard copy CD. THE ARTIST GETS PAID; not the labels or the bought and paid for DJ's who play the trash promoted by the labels.

You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man.

 

Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon

 

Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music"

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