Combo vs separates

[DJ-Wood]

Hello,

 

I'm going to be investing in a new amplifier soon, and I was wondering if there is anything inherently 'better' about using separate heads and cabs over an all in one combo.

 

FYI, I'm thinking of buying an Ashdown 300 Watt MAG head, and putting it through an Ashdown 4x10 and 1x15. I would be using it for small club gigs, so I would imagine that 300 watts would be fine? (I'm not much of a tech-head!)

 

Would I lose out somehow by purchasing a combo 4x10, and adding the 1x15 as an extension? All professional bassists seem to use separates - why?

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

FYI, I'm thinking of buying an Ashdown 300 Watt MAG head, and putting it through an Ashdown 4x10 and 1x15. I would be using it for small club gigs, so I would imagine that 300 watts would be fine? (I'm not much of a tech-head!)

300W into an efficient 4x10" is enough for most gigs - you'll be fine. And the 1x15" will help when you really need to be loud, don't have a PA or are playing outdoors.

 

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

Would I lose out somehow by purchasing a combo 4x10, and adding the 1x15 as an extension?

Yes. For some gigs you might prefer the tone of the 1x15" on its own so you'd want to be able to leave the 4x10" behind. Moving a 4x10" cab is hard enough, moving a 4x10" combo with that extra size and weight will not be a pleasant experience. If the head breaks you can just buy/borrow another head and still use the 4x10" without carting the deadweight of the dead amp. If you decide you want more power (which is getting cheaper and cheaper and you'd get maximum volume by giving those cabs 1200W in total) you can replace the head with a more powerful one and keep the same cabs. Conversely if you decide you like the head but want to upgrade the cab you can do so. Etc etc...

 

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

All professional bassists seem to use separates - why?

See above!

 

Alex

[Afro_Man]

An ashdown 300 watt head is what im currently in the market for, 300 watts is everything you should need especially through a 4x10 cab, i have 200 watts through a 4x10 and its just not quite enough so im just upgrading the head which is brilliant because i love the cab. Basically everything that alex said i agree with.

Nic

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Afro_boy:

i have 200 watts through a 4x10 and its just not quite enough so im just upgrading the head

When you say 'just not quite enough' how 'just' do you mean? The difference in volume/loudness from a 200W to 300W is barely perceptible, less than 2dB. Just warning you in case you're expecting it to sound 50% louder!

 

Alex

[DJ-Wood]

Thankyou for your response C.Alexander Claber!

 

If I could only buy 1 cabinet, am I correct in thinking that the 4x10 would be better than the 1x15 (because 4 speakers = greater surface area than a single 15)?

 

In your post you said that "you'd get maximum volume by giving those cabs 1200W in total"

 

Ok. I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't fully understand the gear/tech aspect of the bassists role! The Ashdown 4x10 cab has the following spec:

 

4 x 10" + tweeter

350W continuous

8 Ohms

60Hz - 20kHz

101dB 1W @ 1m

 

And I was under the impression that the wattage of the head and the cab should be roughly about the same (or else something somewhere is going to go 'bang' at some point!)

 

If anyone would like to further my understanding (or point me to a previous topic that explains all this!), I'd be very grateful.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

If I could only buy 1 cabinet, am I correct in thinking that the 4x10 would be better than the 1x15 (because 4 speakers = greater surface area than a single 15)?

50% right. Ignoring when the voice coils burn out, the maximum low frequency volume you can get from a cab is determined by the amount of air it can move. This is determined by the total speaker area multiplied by the maximum speaker displacement (fore-aft movement).

 

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

In your post you said that "you'd get maximum volume by giving those cabs 1200W in total"

 

And I was under the impression that the wattage of the head and the cab should be roughly about the same (or else something somewhere is going to go 'bang' at some point!)

 

If anyone would like to further my understanding (or point me to a previous topic that explains all this!), I'd be very grateful.

Bass amp in big room...

 

\'Stupidly\' overpowered amps...

 

Amp and cab power optimising...

 

Tell me if that proves enlightening!

 

Alex

[LLroomtempJ]

If you are planning on using a mag300 with a mag410 and a mag115 for small venues...i wonder what kind of masochist(sp?) you are. My abm410 weighs about 90 pounds and i hate having to move it anywhere. Your mag doesn't weigh much less, add a 115 to that and you will hate having to move your stack around. The sound that you'll get from the two cabs will be different (does the 115 have a tweeter?), but i've come to love the sound that i can get from running my axe and my amp through a 410 alone.

 

In terms of the power rating thing..you can blow a speaker if your AMPLIFIER puts out more power than your SPEAKER CABINET can handle. Be careful with that and let your ear be your guide. If your signal is too strong for your speaker, you will hear a certain amount of distortion....think about how sound quality decreases on a small radio as you turn the sound up, it's the same thing with your stack.

 

C. Alexander is on point with all of his responses but I just figured i'd throw my 2cents in. KEEP THE CHANGE.

 

jason

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by DJ-Wood:

 

All professional bassists seem to use separates -

Not really. Just the ones you see.

 

I agree with Alex's comments; certainly the mix and match method is ultimately flexible and powerful.

 

Other reasons to avoid combos: High SPL's inside the cab can vibrate electronic components and damage them. Also, if your speaker goes out or the head goes out, you are dead in the water. With separates, you can borrow a head and keep playing.

 

Still, I'm the unofficial combo proselytizer here. I have separates and combos, but use the combos exclusively.

 

The reasons I use them successfully are:

 

• Venue size. Most of the places I play are relatively small rooms,
  
• DI simplicity. All of my Combos have really good, flexible DI's. In larger venues, I just plug in, and use my combo as an extra monitor.
  
• Transportability. My heaviest combo is 46 lbs...my lightest is 23 lbs. Great on the back.
  
• Security. When I was using separates, I'd make a couple of trips to the car. That meant that I was leaving something unattended...easier to mess around with or steal.
  

The portability issue is really important to me. One time I had 2 gigs back to back, and had arranged with the conductor (pit orchestra) to arrive late....just 10 minutes before the show opened. That meant the house was open, pit was lowered. I had to walk in from the parking lot, through 3 sets of doors, down a double set of stairs, through the crowded prop area under the stage, up a 6 step ladder, through a half sized pit door and plug in. It wasn't a problem with a bass and a GK MBE....I'd have hated to do that with anything larger.

Check out the next professional pit bassist or a jazz combo bassist...you'll probably see a GK Microbass, a Polytone or an Acoustic Image Contra.

 

Remember to tailor your choice to your needs.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Remember to tailor your choice to your needs.

Ahhhh, there's the sage advice!

 

Personally I think a 4x10 combo is silly. Once you're that big, you lose any portability or smaller size benefit that you could get from a combo.

 

If you're set on a 4x10 and 1x15 rig because if fits your situation, my advice is to get a head -- not the 4x10 combo -- yuck!!!

 

I have two combo amps. One is a 1x12 Ampeg B50R that weighs <50 lbs. It is relatively easy to move around, but it is low power so its uses are really for practice and accompanying acoustic instruments.

 

The other is a 350W SWR Super Redhead 2x10. It weighs almost 90 lbs. It has casters which make it easier to move around. I bought it used, and if I were to make the same purchase again, I would've gotten a Goliath Jr 2x10 cab and a SWR Bass 350 head. Put the 2U head in a softcase over one shoulder, bass in a gig bag over the other shoulder, and carry the 60 lbs. 2x10 cab.

 

Eventually I will probably unload the Super Redhead, which is a really lovely piece of gear, to go to smaller, lighter, and louder separates.

 

Anyway, more detail than you needed... sorry.

 

Peace.

--SW

[DJ-Wood]

This is all brilliant advice, thankyou!

[alexclaber]

Just to clarify my opinion, I don't see the point of big combos, they're just a pain to move. But combos like the AI Contra, GK Microbass, EA iAmp800, EA Whizzy, Mesa Walkabout, PJB Briefcase etc really appeal to me. All small and light (less than 60lbs - some nearer 20lbs), all with great (and varied) tone, and loud enough to have enough headroom for their intended usage (i.e. don't use the AI in a rock band but for acoustic stuff it's amazing).

 

If I can't lift it with one hand I'd rather have a separate head and cab.

 

In my current musical situation the only compact combo that'll be able to cope is the iAmp800 which is heavier than my rack or cab (which I leave at the studio anyway) and is prohibitively expensive. I'd love a PJB Briefcase but I can't think of a good reason why I need it. I used to want a GK Microbass but I've got too much into deep reggae tones which would be beyond it at rock volumes.

 

Ashdown have a bit of habit of bizarre combos - the Mark King Signature combo which was a 500W 8x10" - weight? Don't ask! And now the AL-C210H combo - 575W 2x10" 88lbs and the most painful looking handles in the entire world!

 

http://www.ashdownmusic.co.uk/bass/products/ALC210H.jpg

 

Alex

[jeremy c]

Why do pros use separates?

 

Because a combo large enough to be heard through an eight piece band would be too large to move.

 

Because if I'm playing with a four piece band, I bring smaller or fewer speaker cabinets.

[SteveC]

Dave, Sweet and Alex -

 

Now you are saying combo? Just when I thought I settled on keeping my Stewart/Bergie seperates.

 

Dave, I think you and I are doing similar gigs - pit work, jazz combos, occasional big band stuff. What combo do you use?

 

I still think my Bergie and rack are more than I need.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by SteveC:

Dave, Sweet and Alex - Now you are saying combo? Just when I thought I settled on keeping my Stewart/Bergie seperates.

 

Steve, stop reading the amp threads, you'll end up going round in circles!!! If I could have just one rig, then I'd have a lightweight rack and cab(s) rig. Wait a second, I do just have one rig, and that's what I have! If I had a combo, I'd want extra cabs as well, and then I'd want more power to push them so I'd need an extra power amp etc etc.

 

Originally posted by SteveC:

Dave, I think you and I are doing similar gigs - pit work, jazz combos, occasional big band stuff. What combo do you use?

 

I still think my Bergie and rack are more than I need.

IIRC Dave uses the Microbass for louder gigs and the Contra for more acoustic gigs. But the Microbass is very midrangey, unported and in a small (aluminium) cabinet so it's not going to like the low-B string. And the Contra is quiet - same efficiency as an Acme Low-B1 and with only 200W pushing it.

 

The thing is, if you downgrade to a combo I'm willing to bet £50 that within a year you'll have changed to something else, and within another year something else, ad infinitum!!!

 

If you can breck the GAS cycle, you might just end up happy with your gear!

 

This is the last time I'm writing this - you're on your own now (could someone send Steve the GASoholics Anomymous contact details!)

 

Alex

[Afro_Man]

Originally posted by C.Alexander Claber:

When you say 'just not quite enough' how 'just' do you mean? The difference in volume/loudness from a 200W to 300W is barely perceptible, less than 2dB. Just warning you in case you're expecting it to sound 50% louder!

 

Alex[/QB]

I just want to be able to turn it up a bit more and not risk peaking it so easily, at the moment when i use certain pedal settings i peak and clip, which sounds so bad.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Dig it, Steve, I'm not saying combo. I have two combos, but I'd rather have the one smaller combo for home practice and small, intimate performances, and then a more powerful, but still small, separates rig (e.g., an EA iAmp 800 head or similar into an AccuG Tri-112L). If I was really happy w/ the separates, if the head had a 'phones jack, and they truly were no big deal to transport around, I'd even unload the small Ampeg combo (as lovely as it is!).

 

I agree w/ Alex -- stay away from the amp threads!!! You have a lightweight, multi-purpose, flexible rig w/ that SABDDI, Stew 1.2, and Bergie 1x12. Stick with it for a while.

 

And, DJ-Wood, get the head! Screw the 4x10 combo! That's just silly.

 

Peace.

--SW

[davebrownbass]

To clarify,

 

Steve, in your thread I mentioned the AI Clarus head....I think you wanna keep those great speakers moving air... With the Clarus, it'd be the same thing as a combo...Take some Velcro and make it a combo!!!!

 

That's my kinda gigs. Here's my general practice:

 

Most gigs: GK MBE 150. I used it Sunday live for the first gig, and took a Direct from it for the outdoor gig.

 

URB playing, all acoustic playing and warmer sound...the Acoustic Image. The volume I hear seems too low, but because of the floor firing speaker, it spreads throughout the pit and out to the house. I've used this little baby successfully to drive a full jazz band a time or two. It is very non-directional, but will carry a jazz band pretty well.

 

Louder gigs, gigs requiring a low B, more punch...the Eden Nemesis 210. This amp is also very non-directional, but it's been a pretty good one for me.

 

I also have the old Fender BXR 300 Watt head with a 15" bottom....this rig is the only current separate one I own. I haven't seen it in 3 years, but they assure me it's at the church somewhere!

 

My regular church gig uses only my Rolls Red Square DI (very like the BBE Sonic Maximizer) and monitor. We have big subs and a nice sound system there.

 

If Aerosmith calls, I'd have to get another rig! Of course, Aerosmith won't be calling anytime soon!