surfjunkie Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 i think The Pledge of Allegiance is a great thing. i haven't recited it in many years, but i like the idea of children reciting it in school- especially in this post-9/11 America. the argument that The Pledge is unconstitutional hinges on the fact that public school teachers lead the recitation, thereby violating the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which says that our government can't endorse one religion at the expense of others. when Eisenhower added the line "under God" in '54, the idea was to advance religion in general, not Christianity. but why put that line in at all? i'm not a religious person, and i wouldn't even say i'm "spiritual" like some people do after they say they're not a religious person. other people's religious beliefs don't bother me if they don't bother me with them. undeniably, the world and our country are better for peoples' beliefs in a higher power. i'm doing okay right now without that belief, but some other people might be pretty messed up without it. (that's a dangerous statement, but i'll leave it) can't we just take the line "under God" out? would some people teach their kids to say the line during the class recitation, just to make a point? is this whole thing ridiculous? i can honestly say that i am proud to be an American, and i stand behind my country. we are great, and even with our disagreements are united and free. now see, i just paraphrased The Pledge there. i didn't say anything about God, but it still sounds patriotic, doesn't it? i believe what i wrote in that last paragraph, it wasn't just to make a point. what do you think? [img]http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggs Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I say the VAST majority do believe in God (we are not talking Christianity here... The concept of God is non-denominational) and as a Democracy is fundamentally a "majority rule" entity, I say leave it in and if you don't believe in it, don't say it. I think it is just not right to deprive the vast majority of the opportunity to express themselves based on yet another "politically correct" motivation. What do we do when swearing in defendants and witnesses? Where does all this end? We've got much bigger fish to fry than to focus our repressive energies on this... Sorry. I'm just a bit testy today. Boggs Check out my Rock Beach Guitars page showing guitars I have built and repaired... http://www.rockbeachguitars.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 one nation, under a Bush. :( -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 well, considering its on our money as well [which it shouldnt be.... isnt there something in religion that makes having it on money false worship?] so we got money, in god we trust... which really means in money we trust. and one nation under god, which means one nation under money. hmmm, and what are the 7 deadly sins again? the ones that come most to mind describing america are GLUTTONY and GREED. hmm, and maybe PRIDE [especially these days].. oh and WRATH. how many is that so far? 4 out of 7. i guess i could add SLOTH and LUST with the engagement with OBL... the public represents sloth with their patriotic complacency and the government represents lust with the thousands of bombs they dropped on afghanistan and still didnt hit their target. and christians represent ENVY big time with their adament superiority and scoffing of others beliefs. and america has never been free and became much less free post 9-11. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b]I say the VAST majority do believe in God (we are not talking Christianity here... The concept of God is non-denominational) [/b][/quote]no, god capitalized [[b]G[/b]od] is the christian form of the word. it does NOT represent other religions. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Ratte Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 RIGHT ON! to that decision. I remember in grade school in the mid '70s, all our classes in the morning were forced to stand with right hand over our "hearts" (to the right, but whatever) and say the Pledge. The "God" line always pissed me off. It's so blatantly, obviously unconstitutional. I remembering bringing it up in 4th grade social studies class. "Why does the Pledge say 'under God' when the gov't isn't supposed to support religion?" The teacher didn't really know or have anything much to say. I remember there were always like a half-dozen kids who "couldn't" say it for whatever reason so they'd have to leave out to the hallway and sometimes there'd be crying and a big fuss. I'm the most annoyed with all the Congress idiots acting all up-in-arms about this... these politicians are all hyper-educated eastern millionaire Ivy Leaguers and they're obviously pandering to Jane Dipshit, proud PTL donator. The US did just fine from 1776-1954 without that line... I think it's time to fix it back. G. Ratte' Christian-not that it's anybody's damn business G. Ratte' http://www.cultdeadcow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Wager, I agree 100%. As a kid, I always resented that part of the pledge. I remember in 3rd grade thinking "under god" made no sense in there. Yes, I pledge to my country. May not agree with everything or everyone, but according to our founding doctorine [i]I don't have to.[/i] The line "under god" was added as a reaction to "the godless communists." A product of the cold war. I yelled at the radio this morning. Listening to NPR, Bush is saying they need to appoint judges who understand that our rights were given to us by god. Oh yea? Which god? Even if you happen to believe in the same one as he does, what if you worship in a different way? [b]Separation of church and state.[/b] I have no problem with people believing in whatever deity they choose or none at all, but ours is not a nation built on religion. Now it is going to be appealed most likely to the supreme court where it will be overrulled. The same court that just ruled kids participating in after school programs can be randomly drug tested. [i]It's not the kids in the after school programs that should be tested, it's the ones not participating that are smoking and drinking.[/i] Sorry, chess club is cancelled today because we think you kids are druggies. This sh*t makes me :mad: :mad: :mad: ! -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Worthington Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b]I think it is just not right to deprive the vast majority of the opportunity to express themselves based on yet another "politically correct" motivation. What do we do when swearing in defendants and witnesses? Where does all this end? We've got much bigger fish to fry than to focus our repressive energies on this... [/b][/quote]It was "'politically correct' motivation" that got the "under God" wording put in to begin with. In an effort to further distance the USA from the "god-less" Communists, the paranoid anti-commie conservatives went out of their way to add in two words. It was such a blatantly manipulative attempt, and so wrong-headed, it's yet one more embarrassing episode from our Cold War past. The phrase doesn't belong in the pledge--its inclusion being a product of its time--but I agree it's not worth the huge fight it would require to remove it. I'd rather fight something such as the inclusion of Scientology as an eligible religion, or the exclusion of Wiccan and Pagan groups, or the church's tax exempt status to begin with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfjunkie Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]and america has never been free and became much less free post 9-11.[/b][/quote]i appreciate your intelligent cynicism (as always), but i would define America as a "free country". of course if i asked "what more do you want?", you could talk for hours (but stop short of moving). if someone asked [i]me[/i] that, i'm sure i could come up with a few things too. i don't agree with every political detail from the past 222 years, that's not what makes a free country. i feel free. maybe i'm just slothy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lash Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Anytime "God" shows up at a State function, it's bad news. It gives the Government the idea that it has some sort of divine authority to do what it does, and that's [b]never[/b] a good thing. Doesn't matter whether it's the US Government or the Taliban. God has no place in a government that supposedly supports separation of Church and State. Period. Prozak for Lovers II -- even more trouble than the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikestr Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Well, if we carry the court's decision out to a logical end we would HAVE to declare all US currency unconstitutional AND we would have to declare the Constitution unconstitutional. These people who bring cases like this should just sit down and shut up during the Pledge. Does anyone know of anyone who has been physically or mentally harmed by saying the Pledge? Has anyone ever died from saying the Pledge? The answer is NO. If you dont like the Pledge then dont say it. That simple. Dont waste the courts time with frivilous suits like this. From what I understand about the guy who brought the case is that he didnt want his daughter reciting the Pledge in school. Ok, fine. He would be a much better father if instead of spending all that time with the case, he spent that time with his daughter. I can only hope that the two judges who decided in his favor dont hold their appointments too much longer and I hope that the Supreme Court reverses this decision. ikestr ...hertz down low.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Oh, God ... here we go again. (Oh, God ... did *I* say that!?!) ;) DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 And now a completely different view.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006563 Just tired of all the flag waving and moral high ground related to securing the worlds fossil fuels at any cost. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 america has limited freedom. like i cant buy a beer over 6%alc where i live, thats not freedom. i cant drive and by my own choice not wear a seatbelt which ONLY effects MY life [cause when its useful, the order of events requiring it have already gone into action... iow, not wearing one doesnt cause you to wreck] or helmet laws. actually, last wreck i didnt have my seatbelt on and my wife did, SHE went to the hospital, not me. the wreck before that one [same situation, high speed rear ender... i had my seatbelt on and ended up going to the hospital] i dont have the freedom to do a LOT of things... in fact in my dialing area, my direct TV wont allow me to rent the porn channels. WTF?!? what if my wife and i want to enjoy a porn but dont want to go out and rent one? these are all things that DONT inflict harm on others. i submit to the lack of ability to scream fire in a theater... thats common decency to fellow humans. so what makes a free country? the ability to vote? im a bit jaded if the vote even counts now.... and even if it did, no matter who you vote for, its just one evil or another evil. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b]I say leave it in and if you don't believe in it, don't say it. [/b][/quote]As I stated before, I knew something was fishy with it [i]when I was in third grade.[/i] Gratte said the same thing. Little kids understand the concept of separation of church and state. Why, as adults, do we have a hard time understanding this? Think of it as an equation. If A > B, then B < A, not B > A because lots of people want it that way. -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by ikestr: [b]Does anyone know of anyone who has been physically or mentally harmed by saying the Pledge? [/b][/quote]i could imagine kids who dont be rided by the kids of the god fearing gun toting rednecks that belittle anything different from their obscenely limited mentality. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Tonk Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Separation of church and state,means that you are not forced to go to the goverments church.You are guaranteed freedom of religion not freedom from religion.The colonist came here because they didn't want to be part of the church of England.You can worship however you like or choose not to at all.That is your right.You wont be jailed for not worshiping like in some other countries.It also means that funding for a church cant come from our tax dollars. The reason churchs are tax exempt goes back to before welfare and such.When churchs took care of the needy and the government kept to its business of governing.We would be much better off now if it was still that way.You and I would have more money in our pockets if it was. jgc2002 is not responsible for damages ,injuries and or death as result of above post.Side effects include nasuea,dizziness,dry mouth,vomiting,blurred vision,nervousness,loss of memory and in extreme cases sexual side effects. www.mp3.com/salt_creek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by ikestr: [b] Does anyone know of anyone who has been physically or mentally harmed by saying the Pledge? [/b][/quote]Sure. There are a lot of folks who think that America is the only place on Earth with liberty and justice for all. There are people who think that god shines her light only on our shores. I won't say that the pledge is the only reason, but it's pretty indoctrinating. And the fact that liberty and justice for all can be found in these states is a lie makes it doubly damning. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R. Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by ikestr: [b]Well, if we carry the court's decision out to a logical end we would HAVE to declare all US currency unconstitutional AND we would have to declare the Constitution unconstitutional.[/b] No, just the words "in god we trust." [b] I can only hope that the two judges who decided in his favor dont hold their appointments too much longer and I hope that the Supreme Court reverses this decision. ikestr[/b][/quote]Why, because they actually interpreted the law in the way it was intended? The scariest thing about this to me is the backlash. All members of the senate and congress have stood up and "pledged under god." No one would dare not to if they had any aspirations of a future career regardless of their beliefs. Now we get to see who really stands up for our rights. My guess is that it will stop in the 9th circuit court of appeals. -David R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lash Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Who decides which "God" this nation is under? Who decides in which "God" we are to put our trust? The government? I mean, it's on their money and in their pledge. It must be the State's "God". Prozak for Lovers II -- even more trouble than the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I believe in the concept of separating church and state, but changing the pledge? C'mon! We have better things to be doing with our time and money than squabbling over the use of the word 'God'. Heaven forbid kids should talk about God our their country :rolleyes: ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 Sorry for cross posting. I think the keyboard forum is asleep. I always HATED being forced to say the Pledge of Alligence when I was in school. Some how I was aware of this not so subtle indoctrination technique early. Eventually, around the 4th-5th grade I just stood up, and kept my mouth closed, not to offend the teacher or other students. Later on, married with my first wife, a German woman, was horrified to hear that children were forced to say such a thing, every day in school. Her reaction? It sounded Nazi to her. I am offended not by the GOD in the pledge, but by the pledge itself. I was THEN also offended by the inclusion of GOD because I was an atheist. I still respect the rights of atheists. I just think forcing children to pledge their allegiance is a strange and facist idea. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff1096 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I love the rewritting of History. Look, like it or not, the FATHERS of this GREAT country along with the fathers left ENGLAND for freedom to worship GOD.. not another "higher power", GOD. They thought it best to INCLUDE GOD in the Constitution. My point is this, if you don't believe in the GOD that they came here to freely worship, that's fine. I've no problem with you. However, I expect the same. Just a thought here, Why not let the people decide? Let's vote on it during the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 I agree let the people vote on all particular issues, health care, marijuana, taxes, ect ect ect....... NEWSFLASH...it'll never happen, the powers that be will never let the people have that much power....never. Hey Griff....how bout them Blue Mountain hipsters????? Or how bout them North Mississippi Allstars??????? Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfjunkie Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 Originally posted by griff1096: [b]I love the rewritting of History. Look, like it or not, the FATHERS of this GREAT country along with the fathers left ENGLAND for freedom to worship GOD.. not another "higher power", GOD. [/b] that's the [i]only [/i]reason? [b]They thought it best to INCLUDE GOD in the Constitution. [/b] as i mentioned in the first post, Eisenhower put the "under God" line in. he was not a "founding father". [b]My point is this, if you don't believe in the GOD that they came here to freely worship, that's fine. I've no problem with you. However, I expect the same. [/b] i agree that tolerance is the whole point, but maybe forcing people to say "under God" isn't very tolerant. i'm not against God or god, as i said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff1096 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard: [b]I agree let the people vote on all particular issues, health care, marijuana, taxes, ect ect ect....... NEWSFLASH...it'll never happen, the powers that be will never let the people have that much power....never. Hey Griff....how bout them Blue Mountain hipsters????? Or how bout them North Mississippi Allstars???????[/b][/quote]You never know.. Blue Mountain hipsters/NM Allstars?? Sorry, you lost me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfjunkie Posted June 27, 2002 Author Share Posted June 27, 2002 thanks for mentioning the Keyboard Forum version of this thread, henry- interesting reading. they didn't mention the lakers [i]once![/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff1096 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [QUOTE]Originally posted by wager47: [b] that's the [i]only [/i]reason?[/b] The main reason, yes. [b] as i mentioned in the first post, Eisenhower put the "under God" line in. he was not a "founding father".[/b] That has to do with the Pledge, I'm talking Constitution.. The "under God" was voted on by congress [b] i agree that tolerance is the whole point, but maybe forcing people to say "under God" isn't very tolerant.[/b] I'm not forcing anybody... niether is the Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by griff1096: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard: [b]I agree let the people vote on all particular issues, health care, marijuana, taxes, ect ect ect....... NEWSFLASH...it'll never happen, the powers that be will never let the people have that much power....never. Hey Griff....how bout them Blue Mountain hipsters????? Or how bout them North Mississippi Allstars???????[/b][/quote]You never know.. Blue Mountain hipsters/NM Allstars?? Sorry, you lost me on that.[/b][/quote]Man its hard to believe a West Point Mississippian doesn't know these bands! :) Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff1096 Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 [b]Man its hard to believe a West Point Mississippian doesn't know these bands! [/b] I know where Blue Mountain is.. and (lol) North Mississippi is.. Are they college bands?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.