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Outdoor show and the sonic field


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Ever wonder why the soundman is asking the guitar player to turn down? Of course as a guitarist, I hate to turn down, especially outdoors. But I see his point. My sonic field of guitar with the amps turned way up was pretty narrow, once you went left or right from center, it diminished quite a bit. But after getting a good mix through the PA, we had a larger balanced listening field. I still had plenty of growl and grit, but adjusted enough so that the PA mix didn't suffer. By the way, it was a killer show in downtown Hampton Virginia, with 2000 or so beer guzzling Virginians partying down. You gotta love that! Our soundman for that event was none other than Shawn Bolling of Rip Dizzy (Gotham Records), so we had a master at the controls. I guess the point of this discussion is "Listen to the soundman", sometimes they got their shite in one sock! :)
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Yeah, well we might be doing overkill at times with full production at EVERY show, but it makes for a more professional show in the end. Plus all I gotta worry about is my shit! :)
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Finally!!! Some respect! ;) Actually, Triumph insisted on doing full production from the time they started gigging, so as to be prepared when big shows came their way. I'd say it paid off for them.. at least for a time. :) Congrats on the great show.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Hey Neil, fixin to do a live bluegrass show (with me running sound) using one big condensor for the players to dance around. Am I flirting with disaster? :)
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Not that I playout or anything, but if I did, do we think that sound guys would object to me having my amp(combo) on a stand [i]in front[/i] of me? That way I can turn up to get the power tube smokin without killing the audience in front of the amp throw. I mean, they don't care where it's miked, right?
I really don't know what to put here.
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[quote] Not that I playout or anything, but if I did, do we think that sound guys would object to me having my amp(combo) on a stand in front of me? That way I can turn up to get the power tube smokin without killing the audience in front of the amp throw. I mean, they don't care where it's miked, right? [/quote]Another good idea is to get one of those amp stands that allow you to tilt your tube combo amp up towards your face. Most bands have the guitar and bass amps pointed at the players asses where they aren't doing much good (unless they have their heads down there as well). Also having your amp in front of you, point up on an angle towards you face is great if you are also a vocalists. It points the amp at the cancellation region your cardoid vocal mic's pickup pattern, reducing bleed through into your vocal mic. However this does create a bit of a space issues for monitor wedges. Another thing I have seen work is placing your combo amp behind or beside you, but on top of a marshal cabinet (which is turned off). It gives the look of a full stack, and servers the purpose of getting your amp closer to your ears.
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
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I don't know if I agree with pointing your amp back towards you. I like putting the amps facing forward, placed right on the floor. The reason, you can turn them up a bit higher without causing everyone to go deaf. To me the way you depicted will cause your singer to go hoarse EL QUICKO competing with your amp. Drummer will get full brunt of that as well. You need a decent stage volume that compliments all, and doesn't detract from the group. Once miked, your PA should do the work for you, and your amp behind you, in essence your guitar monitor. All I wanna hear in my PA monitor is vocals, but thats me.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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[quote]Originally posted by Sylver: [b]Not that I playout or anything, but if I did, do we think that sound guys would object to me having my amp(combo) on a stand [i]in front[/i] of me? That way I can turn up to get the power tube smokin without killing the audience in front of the amp throw. I mean, they don't care where it's miked, right?[/b][/quote]Sounds guys would love you for it. We'd talk to about you for days afterwards, raving to all our friends. I don't know how many times I've siggested to guitar players that they put the amp so that it's pointed at their head so they can hear it ... and still they point it at their ass. Point the amp towards your ears - you'll hear it better and you probably won't want it quite so whiney and tinny. You'll get a better sound, you'll hear it better and your sound tech will have an easier time with the band. It's a win/win situation. Tough to do with Marshall stacks tho' :( -- Rob
I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother.
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Full production for every show- that sure sounds nice. I do know of one topflight soundman in my area (150 miles away), and he does the classy shows, like I'd want them done. Only it's gotta cost! Hmmm....

A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

 

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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[quote]Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard: [b]I don't know if I agree with pointing your amp back towards you. I like putting the amps facing forward, placed right on the floor. The reason, you can turn them up a bit higher without causing everyone to go deaf.[/b][/quote]Wrong. You cause anyone in the audience who is in front of your amp to go deaf. They'll hear it a [b]lot[/b] better than you! [b] [quote] To me the way you depicted will cause your singer to go hoarse EL QUICKO competing with your amp. Drummer will get full brunt of that as well. You need a decent stage volume that compliments all, and doesn't detract from the group. [/b][/quote]You'll quickly discover that with your amp two feet away and pointed at your face you'll turn the volume [b]way[/b] down. Your singer, and possibly your drummer, will love you for it. [b] [quote] Once miked, your PA should do the work for you, and your amp behind you, in essence your guitar monitor. All I wanna hear in my PA monitor is vocals, but thats me.[/b][/quote]Your amp, when pointed at you face, is still your monitor but this way it's less likely to take the heads off the people in the front. You'll lower your stage volume and the band's overall sound will improve by a very large amount. But I do agree with one thing - [b]let the P.A. do it's job![/b] - don't blast your guitar into the front of house! Another option is to put the guitar amp on the side of the stage pointing across the stage, like a side fill. But you'll find very quickly that your band probably won't let you get away with the kind of volume that most guitarists seem to need. -- Rob
I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother.
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Turn your guitar way down???? BLASPHEMY!!!! No seriously, I know what you mean, however you might be pleasantly surprised how I get my tone without killing the audience. With tube amps specifically, turning way down equates to shite tone. So in order to acheive this, I use smaller tube amps and position them strategically to be able to get some power tube grind goin. I've been known to set them up behind the PA stacks, ect. Whatever it takes. The perceived volume achieved by setting your amp directly on the floor (flat) rather than tilting it up is pretty diverse. Sitting flat I can turn up quite a bit, because of how directional the speakers are at foot level. Yeah if it were ass level or eye level, that amount of amp volume would be way overpowering. I feel like if you can't hear your amp, the rest of the band is too loud. Some folks like that preamp tone....I don't care for it. I had an old bluesman tell me once "Turn it up, or turn it off!". That of course, was because I was always afraid I was too loud. I am very conscious of my stage volume even to this day, but turning way low and putting the amp by your ear isn't the only means of getting to the good tone promise land. But to each his or her own.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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Hey Geenard - Allow me to butt in on Neil's behalf - the single condenser method is often the preferred way of doing bluegrass bands. For you, it couldn't get much easier - most of the work is theirs. My best friend plays upright bass in a bluegrass band. They travel with a large-diaphragm AT condenser (I forget the model # - project studio mic) and mix themselves, old-school style - by moving closer to the mic for solos, & backing off for harmonizing. They know what they're doing, and it's great. The only thing they add - and you might want to do this - is a 57 in the f-hole of the bass, just so there's a bit more to play with. (Hard for him to step up to the mic with that thang, too!)
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Oracle, Yeah I was thinking about a tilt back stand for this. Geno- My thinking is that the drummer would only get bleed through, because it would be pointing at my face on a tilt back. Step up and you have all the feedback you want. Yes, you'd have to be loud, but I like loudness in my face, hehe! Anyway, unless I joined a band as strictly a guitarist, I'd most likely be singing lead. And I doubt that I'd find a gig as just a guitarist, there are too many around and I'm not good enough to beat out the other 85 guys auditioning. "Oh, you sing and play guitar, well that's another story ..." Too bad I have so much trouble singing and playing bass. I'd have a gig in a second. So many bands are looking for bass players. And singers. Macca and Jack Bruce I ain't. It's the biggest reasons I switched to guitar a few years back. I wanted to play and sing, and my ability to split my brain like that isn't there. Oh well, what was the subject? Oh, yeah, anyway ... Besides, if I found the amp volume overwhelming, it'd be a great excuse to go get one of them lower wattage tube jobbies. The Pro Jr, or maybe one of those new little Carvins, switchable from 15-5 watts. Dwarf - That's the beauty, I'm not a stack guy. I like combos. ;)
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Hey Sylver, I realised that I hadn't addressed part of this point yet: [quote]Originally posted by Sylver: [b]Not that I playout or anything, but if I did, do we think that sound guys would object to me having my amp(combo) on a stand [i]in front[/i] of me? That way I can turn up to get the power tube smokin without killing the audience in front of the amp throw. I mean, they don't care where it's miked, right?[/b][/quote]I was talking to another sound guy the other day and we have different views of this. I love guitarists who angle their amps. He prefers that amps stay flat on the floor to get the extra bass boost from coupling. I find that if you have any bass in your sound at all then the extra boost can be too much, especially when close micing - you get enough bass boost from the proximity effect. So yeah, you might actually run into a soundman or two that would prefer your amp to be flat on the floor. But if they complain you can tell them that I told you it's OK to say "Bite me" :) -- Rob
I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother.
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[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: [b]Hey Geenard - Allow me to butt in on Neil's behalf - the single condenser method is often the preferred way of doing bluegrass bands. For you, it couldn't get much easier - most of the work is theirs. My best friend plays upright bass in a bluegrass band. They travel with a large-diaphragm AT condenser (I forget the model # - project studio mic) and mix themselves, old-school style - by moving closer to the mic for solos, & backing off for harmonizing. They know what they're doing, and it's great. The only thing they add - and you might want to do this - is a 57 in the f-hole of the bass, just so there's a bit more to play with. (Hard for him to step up to the mic with that thang, too!)[/b][/quote]Bravo, Chris! Took the words right out of my mouth! This should be the bluegrass-sound- reinforcement-bible. One, maybe two mics force the group to [i]listen[/i] to one another, balance their sound against the group, or fail miserably. It can also do away with the need for monitors. If you get a chance, check out Down From The Mountain. It was a concert put on by most of the O' Brother, Where Art Thou soundtrack artists a The Ryman Auditorium. They used more than two mics, but several times you can see groups using a single mic for most of the ensemble.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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That one mic on the bluegrass band is downright inspirational. Small tube amps rule my world. I'm digging a suped up Gibson Goldtone, switchable 6 or 15 watts. You can play 6 watts absolutely flat out, or switch to 15 and have some more clean headroom. God I wish I'd had a hot little amp like this on a couple hundred past gigs... Ted

A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!

 

"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau

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Yeah its gonna be a blast. Heres the guys I'm working for: http://newvirginiabluegrass.com/ We did a quick recording two or three weeks ago, though I wasn't happy with the vocals (blew out vocals occasionally), most of the instruments sounded fab....maybe a little bass heavy at times. I'm looking forward to the "dance" around the mic. They've got this old RCA mic with its own power supply, so it should be fab.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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