And Now For Something Completely Different

[Edendude]

The blues/funk/R&B band I play with is VERY loud on stage. It's become very evident to me that a lot more of the detail of our music comes through at our lower volume level rehearsals. And our stage volume is even louder these days, since adding a full-time keys/sax player about four gigs ago.

 

Although I may live to regret it, and even though I have recently re-wired my 2x10 cab so I can use it stacked with my 4x10 cab, I just wrote a group email to our band members which reads like this...

 

"I have been thinking about our loudness issues, and I have a radical idea. Tell me what you think of this...

 

At the next gig I'll just bring my 2x10 cab 'alone', and from whatever level of volume I can attain from this much smaller bass rig, we'll build the band's sound around that bass level.

 

I'm starting to think we are way too loud, and that much more of the detail of our music would come through if we back the volume way off.

 

I know you guys have all mentioned similar concerns about volume recently. So how about we try this approach? Starting with the bass level and working outward might be the easiest way to force ourselves to get our overall SPL way down.

 

Whadda ya think?"

 

Any of you guys dealt with this issue lately, and how did it go, and what were your particular solutions?

 

Do you think I'm nuts going into 'battle' with four other loud musicians, armed with nothing more than a 16 ohm Eden 2x10 cab and a GK1001RB?

[SteveC]

I used to play in a 9 piece band - 4 horns, etc., etc. We were really loud on stage. AT one time, we had more speaker area and power amps running our 7 monitor wedges than we did for the FOH. I had a 6X10 with a 750. It was terrible.

 

We finally said (I think I did) enough is enough. We couldn't get a decent FOH mix because the stage was bleeding out so much. We took the plunge to In-Ear monitors. That really helped. I went to a 2X10 and at the end a 1X12, if anything. Myself, the keys, one guitar (the other HAD to have his amp) went DI. That helped cut stage sound. The drummer bought a shield. BIG help.

 

I think you are on the right track. There's just no need to be that loud - especially if you have a PA. You save your ears, and you get a better FOH mix if you remember that the stage sound is just for monitoring, not FOH.

 

Good luck.

[Edendude]

In the small to medium-sized club we play, our amps are the FOH, too. And we do our own sound from the stage. However, since we all wear earplugs on stage, and the room is not large, all that volume just seems so totally redundant to me.

[ClarkW]

I have/had loudness issues with both of my bands. One of them was solved by switching the drummer to electronic drums. We actually rehearse without microphones, just singing at normal voice volume.

 

The other band can't switch to electronic drums because his kit is just too dang big (20 different drums and gizmos on a rack). It's compounded by the fact that I do believe he is the loudest freakin' drummer on the planet. By the way, does anyone know how to go about measuring loudness? Can it be done with computer software and a standard microphone, or does one need a special, calibrated instrument?

 

Anyway, we managed to partially solve the loudness problem there by a few different means. First, his super-thick muting headphones broke so he had to mail them off to England for repair. They've been gone for three weeks, and now that he wears just regular earplugs, he plays a little quieter because he can actually hear himself.

 

Second, I bought a trio of Bose Personal Amplification System towers for the band. The sound is much less directional and clearer than our conventional PA system (in the rehearsal room; we haven't performed with them yet), so he can hear the rest of the band better even when we're at lower volumes. In that case, he actually adjusts his volume accordingly.

 

You really have to think out of the box to control loudness issues. I've had absolutely no enduring success with just telling people to "play quieter."

 

Right now our next issue to tackle is calibrating all of the keyboard player's patches, because some of them are WAY louder than the rest, and he'll switch to them in the middle of the song but not turn himself down, so all of the sudden the drummer is playing louder to keep up, and the singer is screaming, and the guitar player and I are looking at each other wondering what just happened...

 

Cutting your rig in half is probably the best place to start. Turn yourself way the hell down. Maybe turn down the guitar players as well or get physical attenuators (Beam Blockers or something) for their drivers. Let the drummer, sax, and vocalists adjust, or else kick them out of the band.

[Afro_Man]

My advice is to shout "look the pope" and point in a random direction, then while their backs are turned, turn all their amps down by one, do it until you are happy with the volume.

Nic

[mound]

Second, I bought a trio of Bose Personal Amplification System towers for the band.

Damn.. those rigs are expensive.. Hope they work out!

[73 P Bass]

Originally posted by Afro_boy:

My advice is to shout "look the pope" and point in a random direction, then while their backs are turned, turn all their amps down by one, do it until you are happy with the volume.

Nic

I've got to try this!

I've been turning down more and more hoping the message will sink in that we play too loud, but so far, I just can't hear myself.

[TuckLM]

I did exactly what you're talking about doing. I work in a band that the keyboard player who is on the opposite side of the stage uses two EV PA cabs for his keys. The guitar player, oddly enough, is very sensitive about volume and gets a great tone even at low levels. The volume problem got so severe that I just started bringing my Nemesis 210P to the gigs and turning way down.

 

The result? Complaints that the bass couldn't be heard. I'd tell him to turn down and he'd hear just fine. Did he turn down? No.

 

I finally talked him into buying one of those Roland keyboard amps. Much better. Right after that I heard about the Bose PAS which I think would be the perfect solution to the volume problems. But, yeah, those suckers are expensive. Still want 'em though.

[mcbn]

We had a problem with the band being way too loud on stage and at practice. It started with my guitar player drowning everyone out, so I just turned up my bass rig, which is louder than his half stack. When he said I was too loud, I said that I had to be that loud to hear myself over him and if he wanted me to turn down then he could too.

 

It worked.

 

Now our stage volume is as low as possible. Drum monitors are great if you have access to them.

 

Since you are running the entire club's sound from your amps, have someone stand in the middle of the club and have people adjust their volume while you are playing. Thats what my band does in the same situation.

[Fred TBP]

I DO love it loud, especially in rock, but not loud enough to damage my hearing. This is where my comments come from.

 

Start with the drummer. If he HAS to play that loud during rehearsal and if he can't work with less than his full set (I mean double bass and the works) then make him pay for a larger rehearsal room or get another drummer.

 

For guitar/keyboard players with amps, I've worked with more than a few that can get their pet sounds from a 50-watt combo and a single 12" speaker. If they can't hear that, have them put it on a milk carton or a stool, anything to bring the amp off the floor. An alternative is to buy an inexpensive vocal monitor cabinet with a 12", point that towards them so they can hear themselves, then they should be able to turn it down. If they still can't hear themselves, well, they can start a new band with the drummer you kicked out.

 

Overall, I need to hear the singers and the drummer during rehearsals, the people on whom I depend on musical cues. Any musician who needs full onstage volume to rehearse is not worth the hearing problems you'll get later in life. The only exception I can see to that rule is rehearsing outdoors or on a large stage, but I'm sure the PA technicians will run into mixing and monitor problems if someone has to play really, really loud.

[DWBass]

My band is loud on stage as well. I trie turning down, switching to a low powered combo, etc. all I got back was that they couldn't hear me. I explained to them that they are too loud and that I was trying to get them to turn down if they couldn't hear me. Didn't work. He just asked me to make sure I bring my stack and 500w amp to all future gigs! Sigh! The guitar player uses a Mesa Boogie combo but just bought an extension speaker. I asked him why, he said to get his sound. Translation to me: I need to be louder! I've been giggin since I was 13 (am 45 now) and these guys totally lack onstage experience. We have a 5000w P.A. to support and I keep telling these guys we don't need to be so loud on stage and we're always getting feedback problems. But hey, he's the expert. My 30+ years of gigging mean nothing! Sigh!

[Edendude]

Fortunately...

 

The guys in my band are all very musical and there is now a 'we should turn down' ethic coming from everyone in the band. One of our guitarists even sold his Mesa Dual Rectifier and now uses a small Fender amp.

 

I was thinking the other day that I'm as much of the problem as anyone, since even my 4x10 and GK1001RB rig has enough power and volume to compete with the whole band onstage, even when they play at their loudest. So, I think if I just bring my 2x10 cab alone, they will all happily follow suit.

 

Our next gig at the G-Spot is not until the 13th. I'll be sure to let you guys know if it works out, or if the quest to get everyone to turn down is nothing but a fantasy.

 

[No, I Wont Just Play Root]

we rarely have this problem: the guitarist (typically) is always pushing his volume on-stage, but a handy piece of advice to everyone having volume problems follows....

 

Our sound tech is a 6'5" tattooed kick-boxer, who is very protective of the sound generated FOH.

 

If he tells you you need less on-stage volume, you GIVE him less volume.

 

End of story.

 

Works for us

[Edendude]

Well unfortunately, our 'lead guitarist' is a 6'3", 240 pound Karate mutha.

 

But on the plus side...

 

He's also the lead vocalist and likes to be able to hear himself in the monitors.

 

[No, I Wont Just Play Root]

ah..... houston - you have a problem......

 

[Flash Bazbo]

Related question: Right now, I'm drumming more than playing bass. I like playing at moderate and even low volume levels -- it's a skill not many drummers can perfect.

 

My right ear is shot for high frequencies (serious tinnitis) from playing way too much LOUD rock and blues back in the day, so I like to wear earplugs. The problem is that, when I wear earplugs, I play too loud because I can't evaluate how loud I'm playing.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion for hearing protection that still lets enough of the sound come through so it's easy to moderate the volume level?

[Edendude]

I use the rubber earplugs with the metal diaphrams inside that music stores charge $40 for, but you can get in the Walmart hunting section for less than half that price.

 

The trick with them is not to insert them too far into your ears. That's the big mistake most people whom try them make.

 

If you put this type of earplug in your ear, just far enough to hold them inplace, you will actually hear much BETTER on stage than without them. I find they modulate the volume just enough so you can still hear dynamics very well, and they take all the really bright, swishing, and distorted high volume upper mid noise completely away.

 

You basically have three choices when it comes to earplugs...

 

Foam earplugs which are useless because they block out too much of the important mid frequencies for musician's use, custom moulded earplugs designed for musicians which cost a small fortune, or the rubber earplugs with the metal diaphrams inside which do a great job of cutting volume but also allow you to hear the important mid frequencies, and can be bought cheaply in Walmarts hunting dept. (Just stay away from the foam type).

 

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Edendude:

custom moulded earplugs designed for musicians which cost a small fortune...

What, like as much as a really cheap bass or a small tired secondhand speaker cab?!!

 

Proper musician's earplugs are the most essential bit of gear after your bass and amp IMO. They not only protect you from both permanent hearing damage and volume related fatigue (your brain actually gets tired from discerning sounds at gig volume) but they also make the whole mix sound clearer by reducing the standing waves in your hearing canal and most importantly lowering the SPL at the ear drum to a more comfortable level where your hearing works with greater linearity and less distortion.

 

Put them in before you walk into the gig/practice and take them out when you leave (you don't want to suffer any unprotected snare cracks when the drummer's setting up) and no-one will even notice you're wearing them. You'll feel less tired after the gig, your ears won't ring, and you won't end up cranking up the treble in 10 years time because you've lost all your high frequency sensitivity (even wondered why live sound is usually really harsh? blame soundmen with knackered ears). And you'll be able to hear yourself and everyone else better.

 

Isn't that worth $130?

 

Alex

[Edendude]

I find the rubber plugs with the metal diaphrams inside work equally as well for $20.00.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Edendude:

I find the rubber plugs with the metal diaphrams inside work equally as well for $20.00.

Do you have the custom plugs as well?

 

Alex

[Edendude]

I used to have custom plugs back when I played guitar in a band, about five years ago. I lost them in a move. I decided to try the metal diaphram plugs first, with a plan to get another custom molded set if these weren't any good. But they truly work just as well for me as the $120 custom fit plugs. And as I mentioned above, the secret is to install them very lightly in your ear canal, where as most people have a tendancy to shove them way in.

 

I recently had my hearing tested. Turns out my hearing is actually better than that of the average 42 year old male.

 

Inlight of the hearing test and the way I can hear very well on stage with them, I'll stick with these plugs that I have. And if I lose them, it's only twenty bones and trip to Walmart to get another set.

 

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Edendude:

...I decided to try the metal diaphram plugs first, with a plan to get another custom molded set if these weren't any good. But they truly work just as well for me as the $120 custom fit plugs.

Great! Now there are no excuses for non-wearers. For anyone that thinks they'll still be able to hear properly in their autumn years despite suffering a regular aural battering from live music, check out the table below:

 

http://www.hear-more.com/images/music3.gif

 

350W into an Acme B2 produces 118dB RMS continuous, and more on peaks - that's a relatively quiet bass rig. A cranked up Marshall stack puts out about 130dB. Ouch.

 

Alex

[Flash Bazbo]

Originally posted by Edendude:

(Just stay away from the foam type).

 

Thanks! I've been using the cheapo disposable foam type because I figured they were all alike. I started using them back when I was roadracing motorcycles and they became a habit.

 

You're right. They block just about everything.

 

I'll give another type a try. I've got a WalMart. Where would I look for custom fit?

[Edendude]

I certainly agree with the importance of using decent earplugs. Our drummer has severe tinnitis, now and he's much younger than I am.

 

But what I find really easy about protecting your ears with good ear plugs, is the fact that it sounds soooooooooo much better on stage, with either the custom plugs or the ones with the metal diaphrams inside. It's the best kind of motivation for using them. If you use the foam type, the opposite will be the case...you'll hear so badly on stage that you'll stop wearing them.

 

You can get the custom plugs through most good music stores, or any place that sells hearing aids.

 

You can get the rubber ones with the metal diaphram inside at Walmart, in the hunting section. Don't accidentally buy the foam ones!

 

These are very similar to the ones you will find at Walmart for under $20.00. Just look closely when you go to buy them, and make sure they have a hole in each end. You can see the metal diaphram on the outside end of the ones I have, which don't have the long stems like the ones in this photo...

 

http://www.atkenco.com/images/uploads/364.jpg

 

Once again...

 

If you try to push these in like you do the foam ones, they will suck. Just put them in lightly enough to hold them in place and they work great!

 

I clean mine with rubbing alcohol and a Q-Tip.

[BenLoy]

www.hearnet.com

 

Check out their custom plugs. They work. It sounds like someone just turned down the volume. Very flat attenuation.

[Afro_Man]

I have the ones in that photo, they are the best ever, they were designed for use in workshops, so make friends with a pro work shop and get someone to pick you up a few, plus you can always wash them cos they're rubber, so they last forever.

Nic

[coyote]

Everyone in my band is conscious of volume for themselves. This is really the first group I've ever played with where everyone's telling each other to "turn it UP". Except the drummer, who basically sets the band volume. He's loud but not terribly loud (and he's great so we like to hear him), so we all balance ourselves to that.

 

To edendude: I can almost guarantee that, unless you get that 2x10 off the floor and up by your ears, you volume will actually increase when you use it alone - because if it's down there firing at the backs of your knees you won't be able to hear it regardless of how low the band plays. And if it ain't on the floor, you'll miss the 'roundness' that interaction with the floor imparts to your tone. Try it and see...

[getz out]

Originally posted by coyote:

To edendude: I can almost guarantee that, unless you get that 2x10 off the floor and up by your ears, you volume will actually increase when you use it alone

Holy crap, me and Mr. Coyote agree again!

 

Puting the 2x10" vertical helps, especially if you can stand a couple of feet away from it. That's not always possible on stage.

 

Coyote, what types of rigs are the guys in your band using? If I'm not mistaken, you're playing keys, right? I remember us debating the big-rig issue... and you did mention you like big-rigs, but not necessarily loud rigs. I'm picturing everyone with full stacks and a monster PA, but at a moderate volume. Quite a visual!

[Flash Bazbo]

Bummer. Our WalMart only has foam and solid plastic. Our local pharmacies only have those, plus silicon, plus airplane pressure-relief plugs.

 

Back to the internet for earplugs!

[Edendude]

My 4x10 is all I usually use, and it's way down by my knees too. But with the 4x10 I usually turn the horn off completely these days. With the Eden 2x10 it'll still be down around my knees, but since I'll have the sweet sounding Eden horn putting out a much more defined midrange, I'm pretty sure I'll actually hear better at a lower volume with the 2x10 alone.

 

Maybe I mislead you into thinking I normally use the 2x10 stacked on top of the 4x10. Not the case. I think I've only used both cabs stacked, just once with this band.