More frets and/or more strings (and other things) -- the world of extended range bass

[jeremy c]

Sometimes a player just hears more than can be played on his or her existing instrument.

 

You could put down your bass and pick up a guitar or keyboard or drumset or flute, or you could search for an instrument or electronic solution that will let you fulfill your dreams.

 

And aren't all the musical pioneers people who were able to hear more than what had been previously played by others?

[Nicklab]

I totally understand what you're getting at Jeremy. I'm just curious if you need more than 4 octaves of range to fill the bass role in music.

 

As for other sonic ranges, that IS when I pick up my guitar or play some keys. Badly, I might add. I think I need to take some guitar or piano lessons.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Nicklab:

I'm just curious if you need more than 4 octaves of range to fill the bass role in music.

 

But what is the "bass role" in music? (rhetorical)

 

For a lot of us it has to do with the register we're in and our ideas about what we contribute to an ensemble.

 

How does extending our range change our role? And conversely, how do different approaches or concepts about our role affect what we call our range? (Like what Jeremy has talked about in terms of the music we may hear in our heads that we want to play on our instrument.)

 

I understand what you're saying, Nick, about a 4-octave range really doing the trick, but sometimes it would be nice to turn the tables on that tried and true joke:

 

How many bass players do you need in a band?

None. The keyboardist can do it with her left hand.

 

I'd rather the joke be more like this:

 

How many people do you need to move the piano/keyboard rig to and from the gig?

None. The bassist is bringing his 8-string, 28-fret bass over his shoulder in his gig bag.

 

Also, as already stated, the addition of strings isn't only about increasing tonal range, but also positional choices and different ways to spread out chords and bass lines across the fingerboard.

 

Peace.

--SW

[jeremy c]

I was talking about when what you hear and imagine goes past what the bass's role has been conceived of previously.

 

I'm not going to say that I am one of these people. I love laying down a solid bassline.

 

On the other hand, I also can play keys and guitar and often know more about harmony than some of the other people I am playing with. I am hearing parts which no one else is playing. What is wrong with playing those parts on my chosen instrument?

 

The keyboard players haven't seemed to have any problem playing string or horn lines for years. Only the die-hard acoustic pianists worry that this "exceeds the role of their instrument". And they don't seem to have any trouble miking their grand pianos on their "all acoustic instruments" gigs.

 

But of course now we are debating the "how come" which Willie so wisely instructed us not to.

[getz out]

Defining a bassist's role in modern music is the tough one.

 

I contend your average popular music today can be done in a 2 octave range (Jeremy might contend it could be done in a one-note range); it really is more about rhythm and not note selection, in my opinion.

 

That's your average, and there are plenty of more than average bands and players out there. Each situation is different.

 

It also comes down to player preference and comfort.

 

I like my five with a low B. A big reason is because I play a lot in E-minor and A-minor. Give me that big, fat G-major or F-major chord and I can do my fifths on the B-string for accents. Nice and fat. I can still do a lot of the tunes I play on a four string, but I'm just not as comfortable with it.

 

There is definitely a convenience factor as well; F at the 6th fret of a B-string, in my case, always makes me smile. I do a lot of my fills on a pentatonic scale, and the B-string does offer some nice fingering options. I feel it's less work involved.

 

This reminds me of SW's post in the recent past regarding "Songs that wouldn't sound right without a Low B." Some modern tunes wouldn't sound right on a 4-string; Juan Nelson's work with Ben Harper was probably my pick. No need to revisit this topic without doing a search, though.

 

Then again, what do I know? I'm a rock and roll guy.

[ibescotty]

Defining the Bass guitars role in music? Thats really a broad question. I think every situation is going to call for a different role for the Bass guitar. Really its up to you and the guys and gals your playing with to define those roles. If youre a guitar player and you walk into a band and there sits Les Claypool. You know your going to have to alter your playing to try and compliment a very busy and percussive style. As bass players I think we end up adjusting our playing to fit the situation or the song more then most other instruments. There are plenty of exceptions.

I am not an extended range bassist. I have just installed a hipshot tuner and I have adjusted it so that I can drop the E to D. Really I only use this lever twice in our shows and that is to pull off cover songs. I have not written the lower range into any of our music. I did use it recently on a recording to add some depth and fill in the lower end of a keyboard type song. So far for me its kind of a novelty. The music Im playing doesnt really call for it much. This is still a new toy. I may start using it more just because its there. That still wouldnt make me an extended range person.

[g.]

This gentleman, Stewart McKinsley will be playing 2 gigs in my part of Montana soon on BROTHERHOOD OF THE GROOVE\'S Rocky Mountain Ski Tour dates :

 

http://homepage.mac.com/f_carnivore/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-01-15%2020.58.28%20-0800/Image-C38B289F47E011D8.jpg

 

He'll probably be using an eight-string fretted instrument (not sure on the brand because he has several possibilities and is hoping a newly commissioned instrument will be ready in time) for those gigs, with a low F# below low B going up to F above the C on a Six. He'll be playing through an Accugroove El Whappo four-way on top of a Whappo Grande 21” sub.

 

He has remarked that he was rather surprised that the people who formed this band (he's taking the regular bassist's place) were ENCOURAGING him to take more space, to take solos - to really show some of the things such an instrument is capable of.

 

It should be pretty cool to hang out with Stew, and I might get to hang out with Greg Campbell of Bozeman too:

 

http://westone.com/music/winter_namm04/9string.jpg

 

Among others, these guys have really wanted to explore the possibilities. And companies like Conklin, Accugroove, Bee Bass, SIT strings etc have really worked hard to make this possible.

 

I don't get why people question why someone else would want to cross oceans in leaky wooden vessels or build or drive cars that comes in more than black, or check out a pen that writes upside down or to go to the Moon or Mars to see what the real story might be - or to explore building or playing bass-type instruments with more than [insert number of strings or range].

 

It's going to be interesting to hear Stew and watch musician spectators and just regular fans of live music and note their reactions to the groovin' music and the extra antics and perspectives that are sure to be available.

[_Sweet Willie_]

I would be interested to hear about the performances, assuming you go.

 

Nice pics.

[g.]

Willie,

 

You just want to hear about the extended range of Accugroove - especially a 21" subwoofer ; P

 

But most assuredly that and the musical evening and audience appreciation shall be spoken of after these gigs : }

 

Actually, the surrounding technology (following the exploration theme) is pretty important here. One wants pickups and speakers that can actually do justice sonically to the concepts of more lows and highs - and sometimes the need for more fidelity.

 

The STRINGS issue is actually a great example. You don't just come up with fat fat strings for a low F# or C# even below that. You don't easily find those high strings in sufficient scale length and proper construction either. SIT Strings and some people at other actual manufacturers who probably want to remain incognito have really worked hard with players of these beasties to come up with the right formulations and gauges so that they speak clearly, balance well with the rest of the strings in terms of both volume and tone, and FEEL RIGHT.

 

I'm actually a test site for this as well because there are certain things I'm looking for in lower and higher strings that haven't been done by anybody yet. More later on this.

[Nicklab]

Originally posted by getz76:

Defining a bassist's role in modern music is the tough one.

 

I contend your average popular music today can be done in a 2 octave range (Jeremy might contend it could be done in a one-note range); it really is more about rhythm and not note selection, in my opinion.

 

That's your average, and there are plenty of more than average bands and players out there. Each situation is different.

 

Well Maury, Tony Levin was using a 3 string Stingray for a while, wasn't he? LOL! That seems to be keeping it really simple. Heck, then there's even the washtub school of bass if you want to be EXTREMELY simplistic about things.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think extended range is great. Like I said, I've been playing 6 string for what, almost 12 years? I think all that range broadens the palette we can draw from. However, I think it's got to be in the context of a certain kind of music. And, at some point I think extending the range to ridiculous extremes makes the instrument cease to be a bass as we know it.

 

I love the Chapman stick, and the Warr guitar. I think they're pretty revolutionary instruments. But, I don't know that that's the direction I want to go in as an instrumentalist. I think I'd prefer to get a, 8, 10 or 12 string that's strung in octaves like a 12 string guitar. Hearing John Paul Jones' solo work with those instruments was really inspiring.

 

But when I think about all of the extended range, I don't know that it's all that necessary. I look at Jaco, and he did it all on 4 string, and used harmonics to broaden his palette. I look at Jonas Hellborg and jsut the tonal variety he achieves with the ABG and I'm impressed. I look at Stanley Clarke, and see that he did the piccolo bass thing, but they both did that in the context of 4 string. Those guys make me think that maybe we take for granted just how much the 4-string can do.

[g.]

I for one do not take for granted what any of those players do. Two of them were in my extended listening today. you've got a lot of baggage you want to bring into this thread. But it is what it is. Creativity flourishes a number of different ways. And change is a big part of the way it stays refreshed, and recirculates what is timeless in value.

 

Start some other thread for Stanley Clarke or whoever. They certainly need and deserve to be remembered and appreciated. Try not to do that at the expense of others though. That's not really the way it works.

[Nicklab]

Say what? I just mentioned that I was impressed at what those guys accomplished in extending the range of the 4-string. As for what I bring to the table in this discussion, I've been playing in the extended range for over 10 years, and I think what I have to say is pertinent. Between playing 4, 5, 6 and 8 string during that timespan, I think what I have to offer is just as relevent as what you're saying. And last I recalled, this is a forum for EVERYBODY to say their piece, not just you greenboy.

 

What I was saying is that these guys broadened the sonic palette of what the 4-string can do, and that sometimes WE as bassists take for granted just how broad the range of the 4 string instrument can be. In no way did I EVER say that any of us should take the musicians I mentioned for granted. I think that's completely silly.

 

To put my comments in context, I refer a roundtable discussion that BP held a number of years back. They interviewed Lee Sklar, Nathan East and one or two other players about the role of bass in current music. This was probably around '92 or '93. They got to talking about soloing and such, and Nathan East commented that when he played normally, he liked to have at least a 5 string at his disposal. He added that when he was going to solo, he liked to play 6 string. In response to that, someone on the panel made a point of saying that in fact, Jaco had done all of his soloing on 4 string, and that getting in the mindset that you needed a 6 string to solo was possibly limiting. The moral of our story? Sometimes even great bassist like Nathan East can get caught up in looking to the extended range bass as a soloing instrument, when there are plenty of possibilities at their fingertips in the more conventional 4-string.

 

I'll say it again: I think extended range is great. The question for me is how high or how low do you NEED to go. I find extended range players like Tony Levin on Stick, Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar, JPJ on 8, 10 and 12 string, and Bill Dickens on 7 string to all be very impressive. However, I don't think what they do or how they play is for everyone. I think they're inspiring, but I think they're the exception and not the norm of what most bass players should be trying to learn.

[g.]

Still seems like you are saying one thing out the left side while you saying the other thing out the other side. Which was kind what Willie didn't think this thread needed because plenty of other threads have done that. (And really, you don't need to try to qualify by saying how much you've played this or that. The ideas speak for themselves.)

 

But whatever. I'll just briefly take a couple of your points that you seem to be determined to argue...

 

The question for me is how high or how low do you NEED to go

Very simply, as low or as high as you want to, or feel compelled to find out about. No more, hopefully no less.

 

I find extended range players like Tony Levin on Stick, Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar, JPJ on 8, 10 and 12 string, and Bill Dickens on 7 string to all be very impressive.

That sounds a little like Archie Bunker saying he has a spic friend ; } ...especially when it's obvious there's an immediate qualifier on its tail - ah - here it comes now:

 

However, I don't think what they do or how they play is for everyone.

So. That seems rather obvious. About any instrument or approach actually. I don't think saxello or bass clarinet or alto or bass flute is for everybody either. But I sure dig hearing Bennie Maupin or Eric Dolphy or James Newton.

 

Wow. I don't think electric BASS is for everybody either. Big flash there. But viva la difference.

 

I think they're inspiring, but I think they're the exception and not the norm of what most bass players should be trying to learn.

What a crock. Seriously. The guys playing lots of strings well know muting with both hands like no tommorrow, they have cross-stringing like you wouldn't believe. They are learning the necks of their instruments. They are learning to use registers and tone to best effect.

 

THEY ARE LEARNING ABOUT MUSIC.

 

That's a really big world - a universe really. It's one that allows one to enter from any point and proceed along any path. Fortunately, there is so much shared in that world whether between plucked string fretted or fretless instruments, or instruments of some other family.

 

Loosen up a little and don't think the different person next door is going to knock up your daughter and the world will never be the same. It's not that way at all.

[g.]

There's room for this:

 

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/subsax.gif

 

And for this:

 

http://pro-music-news.com/html/11/90702ko1.jpg

[Nicklab]

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind, huh greenboy? I certainly didn't make any of my comments personal. What's your beef that you feel the need to make this an ugly discussion?

[g.]

Uncommon Instruments

[g.]

Been looking for this one for awhile again, couldn't remember where it was -

 

http://www.deepmedia.org/ellenfullman/images/photos/LSI_2_large.jpg

 

Click on image below for larger view of Ellen Fullman performing on her Long String Instrument with the Kronos String Quartet:

http://www.deepmedia.org/ellenfullman/images/photos/lsiKronos_small.jpg

 

 

Here\'s one of many sites about Ellen and the instrument, at Deep Media . Good descriptive verse of the sonic reality on the opening page there...

[g.]

http://www.bluezone.nl/bluezone/instruments/sensorplate/Beam/wavedrum/berimblauw/bluedidg/bluedidg.jpg

 

"Bluedidg / 2001 - Double string bass in combination with didgeridoo and berimbau. Didgeridoo works like a trombone. The third, parallel pipe is blown into through a mouth-piece of a bariton saxophone. Made of epoxided aluminum and electronics"

[g.]

This Czech band uses keys and a seven string bass with the middle strings fretless and the outside strings fretted:

 

http://www.bddey.com/7stringsBass/buty2.jpg

 

More pics of other basses using this concept and text about it HERE .

[g.]

Nuclear Rabbit will kick yer azz:

 

http://www.unpronounceable.com/images/midgetupyourass/Dsc05789.jpg

 

And choke yer chicken too (see great shots featuring Jean Baudin's Mighty Nines and the big Accugroove stack that makes the meek inherit the earth - six feet under!)

 

EDIT: Also, this awesome Nuclear Rabbit via iMusicast show ... when it comes to shred some ARE more equal than others! Fantastic stage energy and hands-on-neck technique shots here!

[jeremy c]

I'm with Greenboy. We're talking about the world of extended range bass, not "but four is enough".

 

If you want to bring Stanley into it, he was playing piccolo basses a long time ago. That sure sounds like an extended range bass to me. He had custom basses built by Alembic to get the sound he wanted.

 

Jaco extended the range of the four string with his use of harmonics and he extended the sound palette with his removal of the frets and fiberglass coating of the fingerboard. So he also rebuilt the instrument to get the sound he wanted.

 

Both those players made their marks before the multi-string basses appeared. It's just speculation, but I doubt that they would be playing four strings if they were starting now.

 

This thread is about extended range whether it be frets or strings and yes both those players extended the range of the bass in their own way.

 

But of course that doesn't mean that extending the range stops with them.

 

But you knew that.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Just a reminder of something I wrote in my thread opening post:

 

This is a thread for bouncing ideas around about the ways in which we extend the range of our instrument and to reflect on what gains we might make or what losses we might suffer as we do so.

I hope to return to that spirit and try to avoid even approaching an issue like "why go more than 4?". (Basically isn't the number of strings on an instrument -- or keys for that matter -- arbitrary, based on a combination of tradition and the instrument construction techniques available to us?)

 

I'm going to oversimplify the most recent exchange between TBFKAGB and Nicklab (and Jeremy and me):

 

As we extend the range of our instrument, we are potentially losing its traditional identity as a "bass" instrument.

 

As we extend the range of our instrument, we are gaining an ability to create music and think about music in new and different ways (as has been done with other instruments per some of TBFKAGB's photos and links).

 

I probably started the thread thinking more about physical gains and losses (e.g., managing the wider fingerboard, dealing with pickup placement and scale length when we add frets, increased fingering options, etc.) rather than conceptual ones, but such is the life of a thread.

 

Peace. (I mean that every time I write it, dammit!)

--SW

[ibescotty]

Well to get to the root of the extended rang bass guitars out there, Why?

 

Why would someone consider going to an extended range. So far I've read mention that Nathon East likes to use a six string for solos. Is this because he can get to more notes in the 1st position with more strings faster? If he stays in the first position he's not going to leave the range of a 4 string but he can surely do some things that would be harder on a 4 string.

I've always liked the idea of putting a high B on a five string instead of a low B for this reason.

So what are some reasons to consider?

 

1. Ease of playing more notes?

2. Playing higher extended range. Maybe there's more room because there's another instrument existing in the normal space a bass guitar takes up.

3. Playing lower extended range. Ad more ooomff to a song for sure. Maybe more thud. Maybe more rumble. I hear a lot of lower extended range in smooth jazz now a days.

 

I think what it comes down to is letting the situation dictate the need for these things. I'm sure there are more reasons for extended range. Like it's just plain fun to play with as much as you can get your hands on.

[getz out]

PREACHING PART

Can't we all just get along?

 

There are two options: (1) we all agree all the time or (2) we continue to have discussions that highlight a diversity of opinions.

 

Now, there a are couple of things I believe we can all agree on;

 

1. music is good

2. politics are bad

3. there is universal love for Jamerson's playing

4. Willie is a troublemaker

 

While we all agree music is good, we all define music differently.

 

The same should hold true for the tools to create the music.

Now, BACK ON TOPIC!

 

Willie, personally, I think the cost/benefit for me personally would be at 7 strings; I have played the Conklin GT 7-string. It's a beast, but I could handle it. Anything more than that in either direction (more frets or more strings) would start becoming useless to me. Then again, my approach is pretty straightforward; fretting with a left hand and playing fingerstyle 98% of the time with my right hand.

[g.]

As we extend the range of our instrument, we are potentially losing its traditional identity as a "bass" instrument.

Well, anyone I've ever talked to or listened in on or heard the music of who's approaching these instruments seems to be a bass player first. Some have many decades of doing the low end. They aren't losing the groove - they're adding to it. They love the low strings and the same players any group of bassists would love.

 

At the same time, there are players coming at this from guitar territory. That might start with adding a seventh string for downtuning and divebombing in metal, but some from these quarters are adding an eight string too, and if one recalls the "baritone" pics and links I've put up recently, we are talking scale lenght to go with the lower pitches.

 

But perhaps the most visible proponent there is Charlie Hunter, whose fan-fretted NOvax instruments actually have bass strings, pickups, and tuning pegs on one side of the neck - and guitar strings, pickups and pegs on the other.

 

Eventually, I see the lines of demarcation between ERB (extended range bass) and ERG (guess! ; }) blurring in many cases, with band members in those cases swapping comping, bassline, and soling roles, or just simply intertwining them for a more sophisticated approach...

 

As we extend the range of our instrument, we are gaining an ability to create music and think about music in new and different ways -

- as in that last sentence of mine, above...

 

I probably started the thread thinking more about physical gains and losses (e.g., managing the wider fingerboard, dealing with pickup placement and scale length when we add frets, increased fingering options, etc.)

Here's where I think those pictures of Nuclear Rabbit come in - this is one of many emerging living, breathing bands where you have a ERBassist shredding, grooving, sweating, jumping around on stage, and getting at least equal frontman treatment with the singer and the guitar player (who by the way has been playing seven-strings and is getting something with more strings built as we speak, if I recall).

 

I mean, guys and gals like him are taking this out to the people. They aren't just taking these widenecked beasts to the nearest stool with classical footrest. They are RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWKIN'! This means they have found much of what the liabilities are of wider necks and have easily been able to overcome or go around mental and physical obstacles and just to treat them as musical tools and voices that people in clubs are hearing and dancing and moshing to.

 

Egads, look at all those pics! This is real. This is now.

[g.]

I think the cost/benefit for me personally would be at 7 strings; I have played the Conklin GT 7-string -

Hey Getz76,

 

This is the instrument I've mentioned as one of the more important basses to have been produced - because it's opened the door in a major way to lots of would-be ERB players, and that has actually WORKED. Lots of people could afford these bargains, are comfortable on seven strings now, are playing them in bands or ensembles, or building themselves into solo acts.

 

For Conklin and other more adventurous builders/luthiers it has also resulted in a lot of commissioned isntruments with seven and more strings, various scale lengths and fanning - and various musical approaches and philosophies.

 

I think it's an exciting time to be living in. The internet makes it possible to get some of this music out there while the media conglomerates continue to push wardrobe malfunctions ; }

[g.]

Slight aside: In a way, I consider TOUPE to be extending the concept too. More than one bass! How cool!

 

And this brings me to Wally and Jeremy. I think these guys are not giving themselves enough credit. I mean, we're talking groups with several bassists and nothing but, playing instruments with more than four strings, or uptuned, handling ALL the grooving and foundation roles while also comping and playing melodies.

 

C'mon, Wally and J - don't be shy about it. Maybe it seemed a logical and natural move to work this way, but it IS something that is rather uncommon ; }

[jeremy c]

My name is Jeremy and I am a stringaholic.

 

How's that, GB?

 

Yes, Wally and I use six string basses and piccolo basses and effects pedals in a band with three basses and a drummer.

 

We trade roles constantly. It's a blast, and we are all learning lots and lots from it. Personally, it's very refreshing to be in a band where most of the time I am not filling the bass role. This band has two other good bass players and I learn a lot by listening to them and seeing how I respond to their playing when I play chords or melodies. And I am playing these chords and melodies on a bass instrument because I am a bass player.

 

And we both are still playing four string basses in groove bands.

 

Neither of us are living in a world which defines things as "either this or that but not both".

 

In Berkeley, we used to have a saying which went, "everything not prohibited is compulsory".

 

There are rules in music and there are also no rules in music. It's nice to be able to go back and forth between the two extremes.

 

Everything in moderation, including moderation.

[Nicklab]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

We're talking about the world of extended range bass, not "but four is enough".

 

My intention was NEVER to say 4 is enough, since from my own experience I've been playing more than 4 for a long time. My whole point was that there was a lot of potential for extending the range of the 4 string, not turning it into some sort of indictment of basses with 7 strings or more. Just having seen Michael Manring play a gig with Michael Hedges a number of years ago opened my eyes to just how much a 4 string can do. It made me keenly aware that more strings does not instantly equate to more options, and that alternate routes are out there.

 

I also offered that FOR ME (not you or anybody else, greenboy), I think 6 is the limit of what I want to do. The exception being that I want to look into 8, 10 & 12 strings strung in octaves. I'm a little disappointed that someone just glossed over the whole FOR ME part.

 

I've definitely looked into other ways to extend the range of my 6. I've been detuning to A on the B string for a while. It got a little floppy, but it was still okay. I've even been thinking about getting a couple of hipshot tuners to do that a little easier. I've also been using octavers for some time, in conjunction with flanging, chorus, distortion and even a wah for some time. I've definitely been actively pushing what I do on the instrument ever since I got exposed to Melvin Gibbs' playing 6 or 7 years ago. Perhaps you'll want to look into things before you leap down someone's throat, ok greenboy?

 

Now, my PERSONAL OPINION on basses with 7 strings or more? Not for me, thanks. I've got relatively small hands, so extremely wide necks aren't my style. I've even shied away from relatively wide 6 string necks. I found the Yamaha TRB-6 to be a little wide for my tastes. I've also tried the Chapman Stick, and it really wasn't something I was comfortable with. I've also never been a tapping kind of player. Also, the cost of some of these instruments is a little prohibitive.

 

As for my appreciation of musicians like Tony Levin and Trey Gunn? I think it's perfectly fine to seperate my love of their playing in King Crimson from how I approach the way I play. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[ibescotty]

What made you guys go to extended range bass?

 

Was it just a shiny new bass with lots of strings or was there some need you had to meet and couldn't with a 4 or 5.

 

To all the stringaholics out there.

 

What problem did you need to solve? What hurdle did you need to overcome that made you crave more frets or strings?

 

I think everyone will have different reasons. Might be interesting. Then again might not.