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OT: I May Have a Slipped Disc


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Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with compact discs. Went to the orthopedic doctor today. He looked at X-Rays that were taken in November. Apparently, no one saw anything then??? Anyway, asked a few questions, saw that my right toe wasn't very strong in flexing upward, a few other things, and then announced matter-of-factly that he believed that I had a slipped disc, and that I would need an MRI to "confirm where the slipped disc is located". He then talked about surgery. Swell. There are alternatives to surgery, which I will explore (http://www.diskcure.com/ is one), and I intend on getting at least one other opinion from another back expert or orthopedic doctor. I'm with California Care Blue Cross HMO right now, although I'm thinking about switching to their PPO Plan soon...so many things. I've been suffering from severe back pain for so long now, eye-watering chronic pain that forces me to completely change my life, take Oxycontin and Vicodin daily, and -- well, I don't know if I should be happy about this or what, since maybe at least it's possible that we may be making some headway in figuring out what keeps causing the chronic back/hip problems. Right now, it's just scary.
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Hey,I hope you manage to get rid of that back problem,soon. I have had back pain on and off for 3 years or so,usually muscle problems. Since it takes me about 45 minutes to load the back of the station wagon for a gig, sometimes something gets tweaked in my back. My wife has often suggested I take up learning the nose flute.
I once had a quasi-religious experience..then I realised I'd turned up the volume.
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I've suffered from back pain for years and I can tell you that the best remedy is excercise. I've been hospitalised twice after being paralyzed by muscle spasms. Both times I had physical therapy which involved working out on a stationary bike and other excercises. Recently I began going to a fitness club and spend about an hour in the pool and whirlpool bath four times a week. My situation has improved considerably. I'm sure that your doctors will prescribe physical therapy when you are able and it would be wise to continue to excercise beyond the precribed period.

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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The alternatives to surgery have worked for me, having had TWO of them--at the same time. The recovery is kinda slow, and you really have to pay attention to your every move for a while, but it DOES HAPPEN. I'm in recovery right now, although I have to think about it for a second to remind myself, because it's working that well. I started by finding a competent Rolfer (who, fortunately, happens to be my future father-in-law), to work with breaking tension in my musculature and restoring my prosture and walk. Recently, I've also found a holistic chiropractor who has done some amazing work on me, through careful adjustment and some approaches in kinesiology. The whole idea is to get your bones and muscles back where they're supposed to be naturally, NOT cutting into your precious spinal area to numb some nerves. (Sorry for the rant, but this situation really hits home for me.) Exercise: yesyesyes. BIke riding really did a number on my healing. Swimming, too. I also added some basic yoga moves...talk about amazing results (overall, as well). Get a set of gravity boots or, failing that, just find a door or a doorway you can hang from for a few minutes each day. Make gravity work FOR you. It relieves the compacting that's going on in your spine. Don't use a heating pad. Why inflame something that's already inflamed? Ibuprofen is a good anti-inflammatory; also, try to spend a considerable amount of time each day on your back, and bring your legs up, feet on the floor. This is one of the most natural positions your spine can be in; it relieves pressure and allows the discs to start looking into the idea of returning to the homeland. Don't bend backwards. Just don't. Don't bend your neck backwards, either. Don't do an MRI yet until you've talked to some of the professionals I've mentioned above. Save yourself the hassle and the money.
I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
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Please, Please, Please do not get surgery. It doesn't work. I'm away fishing but will be home tomorrow night. I'll mail you some valuable info then. I had neck surgery ten years ago and I have lots to tell. Sincerly, Benjy King
Benjy
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Yeah surgery is the last option. Slipped disk is a cute name for herniated disk. I know a few people with them and it affects everyone differently. The MDs tend to throw drugs at you and tell you to get in bed and rest which I didn't feel was helping me out at all. Be proactive. I ended up seeing a chiropractor and I thought it was helpful for me but I realize this is not everyone's cup of tea. Also, extra weight adds extra stress to your back but this doesn't look to be an issue with you Ken. :) good luck, bob
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Ken, I've suffered from back pain due to muscle grief (like many others here). Never had the kind of situation you are talking about. While there are lots of horror stories about back operations, I notice that I don't hear that as much as years ago. Seems to me that surgeons don't dive into that without trying lots of alternatives (not just pain killer drugs). If that's what you need.... My brother has had back problems, and fell while working cleanup at the World Trade Center (he's a Lt. in the NYFD). Diagnosis was a loose bit of bone hitting his nerve. He couldn't really lift his foot. They did lots of tests, and finally scheduled surgery. The day he went in, the doctor checked him first. Said that he was improving (which seems to happen with this sort of injury), and he wouldn't be doing surgery - come back in two months. Next week he goes back on active duty. Anyway - that's what leads me to believe that doctors use surgery as a last resort. I agree that it's wise to look at other alternatives. My guess is that you've probably done that (I know you've mentioned this before). Consider the info above, and see what happens, because surgery is your last choice. Good luck - I hope your find your way out of the pain. Tom

www.stoneflyrocks.com

Acoustic Color

 

Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt

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Yes I recently hurt my back and was informed by my doctor that approx 80% of slipped disks will heal themselves with the proper care. But If you've had the back pain for so long, you just might be in the other 20% category. Anyways I thought it was an interesting fact so I thought I'd share. Good Luck with it...

Kris

My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days...

 

http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04

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The disc is probably *L4-L5* or L5-S1. When you are experiencing neurological defecit as you are, you do not want tomess with it. True, most back surgeries are not appropriate, but with neurlolgical defecit, it is a viable and appropriate option. By defecit, I am talking loss of function... not just tingling or discomfort. You appear to be experiencing real signs of defecit. If the disc material (discs do not "slip" as they are fibrous much like the construction of a jel-filled radial tire and attached very firmly to the vertebrae) is in the spinal column (an x-ray will not show this, but an MRI will), you want it removed before it damages the myelin (sheath that protects the spinal cord) and causes damage to the spinal cord itself. How do I know this? I have had back surgery when a ruptured disc caused complete paralysis of my right foot from the arch out and numbness below my right knee. I have regained full use of my foot, but minor numbness remains and I do get "ghost pain" in my foot from the nerve DAMAGE. The damage was not caused by the surgery. It was caused by the lima-bean sized chunks of disc material inside my spinal column which absolutely had to be removed. Talk to a GOOD physical therapist and ask him or her what neurosurgeon he or she would allow to operate on them if they ever needed it. These folks see results. I chose mine that way, and I was up and walking 45 minutes after I got out of the recovery room. Use of the foot came back almost immediately and I was back to work within 2 weeks and only took that long because I promised my wife I would stay out that long. I have had chronic pain and spasms and radiating pain since 1986. I had the surgery after the complete rupture in March of 2001. I have not had back pain or radiating pain since. Only occasional and situational ghost pain in the foot remains. Best of luck, Ken, and please feel free to contact me at boggsplace@yahoo.com or greg.bogoshian@usa.xerox.com if I can be of any assistance... I hope this helps you understand what is going on with your back. Knowledge is power. Often, doctors don't give their patients credit for having enough intelligence to understand or deal with what is going on medically. Boggs
Check out my Rock Beach Guitars page showing guitars I have built and repaired... http://www.rockbeachguitars.com
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Thanks for the support and advice, everyone. Although I am not ruling out surgery, this is going to be a last resort. I will try and find alternatives to this first. It is either L4 or L5, and the MRI will confirm this. Since I am with an HMO, the MRI should not cost anything. Offramp, I am going to a neuromuscular therapist who is also a licensed Rolfer. His therapy is a combination of the two. It's deep-tissue massage and joint manipulation, and it really does help. Even with a slipped disc (herniated disc), exercise still helps. I am swimming twice a week, and now that I will be off work for the summer (I teach), I will kick this up to at least five times a week. I have also been doing yoga stretches every day. Hot shower in the morning, then yoga stretches. I sleep with my legs on a bolster now, too, to alleviate some of the pressure on my hip/lower back. If I do elect to get surgery, it won't be until I have explored other options first. It won't be for a while. And it won't be from the orthopedic doctor who has made this diagnosis. I'd like to leave you with several near-verbatim quotes from our conversation: -------- [b]Thanks[/b] [b]Thanks[/b] Doctor: "With this slipped disc, you are suffering from paralysis. Did you notice anything in the past six months?" Me: "Pain, stiffness in the lower back and hip, inability to move correctly..." Doctor, cutting me off: "It's not a question of whether you can move correctly or not, it's that you are paralyzed. Do you hear me? Paralyzed!" ---- Later, after the doctor explains some of the surgical procedures, but nothing else: Me: "Would you characterize these procedures as being pretty safe? What's the percentage rate for patients with slipped discs?" Doctor: "It's not 'How safe is the procedure'..., it's 'Can I live without doing the surgery?'" Me: "I'm asking how safe the specific procedure that you are recommending is." Doctor: "I don't think you understand me." Me: "I believe I do. Again, how safe is the procedure?" Doctor: "Look, you can try and live without surgery, but do you really want to go through life like this? You are paralyzed. I mean, if you really want to go through life like this, that's a choice you can make." A little bit later: Me: "Are there other routes to take, alternatives to surgery?" Doctor, emphatically: "No." -------- at the very end: Me: "Do things like neuromuscular therapy or yoga help at all?" (just testing him for idiotic answers at this point) Doctor: "No, not at all." Me: "What about stretching?" Doctor: "You can try it..." (I believe he came through with flying colors).
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Yeah I was really down on the medical community after my little episode. Another point of advice: Get all x-rays & MRI results and have them in your physical possesion. Do NOT trust doctor's offices to transfer them to each other. I wasted many an hour showing up for an appointment when my x-rays/MRIs should have been sent but weren't :mad: bob
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Ken, what a timely topic for me! I'm going to an orthopedic surgeon, tomorrow, for roughly the same issue... must be a guy thing :( I can't believe what I just read regarding the doctor's conversation, either. Boggs, thanks for the detailed input. *L5* is where my problems are, as well. A 15-year-old injury to a partially defected area... just keeps getting worse these days. I'll be keeping your posts in mind, tomorrow...

 

"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."

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Ken, if you try another option, traction therapy with a good physical therapist may offer some relief, but if there is evident neurological deficit or dysfunction, have your Orthopedic or your PCP refer you to a neurosurgeon for a second opinion. Here in Rochester, NY they are extremely conservative. Pain alone or even pain with numbness will not get you "under the knife." That is reserved (as are myelograms) for the most severe cases involving neurological defecit. I would not have an orthopedic do it. Get a neurosurgeon. I speak from experience. If you want to see what the surgery (laminectomy) involves, go to yahoo.com and search under "laminectomy" and you will find a site with a teriffic animation of exactly what is involved. I actually got more relief than discomfort from the surgery. It was a plus in EVERY respect right from the get-go. I say again, "GET A SECOND OPINION FROM A NEUROSURGEON ASAP!!" Paralysis is nothing to mess with. I have to agree with the doctor on that front. As an EMT for many years, I have some medical background on the matter. Sorry if I sound alarmist, but there is potential for life-long repercussions if you don't. I have nothing to gain or lose from telling you that, for what it's worth. Boggs
Check out my Rock Beach Guitars page showing guitars I have built and repaired... http://www.rockbeachguitars.com
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Ken, although I fell your pain, and I completely agree that your doctor is being an asshole, I have to tell you -- he may be right!! Especially with your symptom's and the fact theat you're taking Oxycontin daily. He may be saving you YEARS of agony....Maybe. It's too early to tell yet. The MRI will tell you everything, and you'll know which way to go from there. If it does turn out that you have the spinal injury(disc herniation) then I's suggest a neurosurgeon or neuro specialist as your second opinion. Spinal disc injury is far more complicated than a muscle spasm type injury and much more severe. Yes, herniation injury usually getts better with therapy, but you may be walking the fine line regarding your future health. I too have had disc herniation, and surgery! It went on for years...I waited too long to have the surgery and fucked around with therapy FAR too long, and it made things worse. The therapy would work, I would feel great then a relapse...a relapse caused by nothing usually! Then, more therapy, feeling better, relapse. I ended up having to have spinal fusion! No way your going down that road if you dont have too brother!! Dont worry there are different levels of herniation so please dont let this scare you, just dont look at surgery as the enemy as it may be your safest option....It sure helped me! Bottom line, just find a GOOD neurosurgeon, and listen to him. Soon my friend you will feel better!
TROLL . . . ish.
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[quote]Originally posted by meccajay: [b]Ken, although I fell your pain, and I completely agree that your doctor is being an asshole, I have to tell you -- he may be right!! Especially with your symptom's and the fact theat you're taking Oxycontin daily. He may be saving you YEARS of agony....Maybe.[/b][/quote]He may be right. That's definitely not something I'm disputing, but the plain fact of the matter is that he really is a jerk, and also, he *thinks* I have a slipped disc. He doesn't know. So to say these things is premature as well as, er, asshole-ish. Actually, with the HMO, I've had nothing but really nice, kind people except for him, so I was really surprised at his attitude. I am definitely getting a second opinion -- at least. Getting an opinion from a neurosurgeon sounds like an outstanding idea, and I think I will do exactly that. I intend to do something about the pain, whatever that may be. I'll explore Diskcure (http://www.diskcure.com) and see what they can do. They operate out of UCLA, and have been advertising in the newspapers for over a year now. I just didn't respond before when I was having back problems, since I thought that the back problems were completely muscular in nature. I have no wish to keep living like this, and will do something soon to remedy this. What that is, exactly, I don't know, but I will be exploring options. I will consider surgery, too, even though I am terrified of it, if it will make my back better and improve my life. I really want to thank everyone for all their great advice. It's yet another reason in a list of hundreds of reasons why this forum is so great. I'd rather be talking about compact discs than spinal discs, but we'll do that as well in another thread.
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[quote]Originally posted by BKeelan: [b] Another point of advice: Get all x-rays & MRI results and have them in your physical possesion. Do NOT trust doctor's offices to transfer them to each other. I wasted many an hour showing up for an appointment when my x-rays/MRIs should have been sent but weren't :mad: bob[/b][/quote]Thanks for the tip! I didn't realize this could be such a problem, but I'll try and get them. Going up to SF tomorrow morning for a week. my band Nectar's gigging up there over the weekend -- two gigs Saturday, one gig Sunday. I hope I survive this without relapses. My back is already bad enough...
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  • 2 weeks later...
Back from SF. I love SF. My favorite city. We played three gigs, all with my back intact. My girlfriend drove all the way up and back. I have the coolest girlfriend. Anyway, we stopped approximately once every hour so I could get out of the car and perform yoga stretches. I usually did this for about five or ten minutes, and then we'd get back on the road. I had a cushion to support the lower back, and took muscle relaxants to try and survive the bloody trip there and back. It apparently worked. The gigs went well. We sold a lot of CDs, got some new fans, and had a lot of fun. The mini-SF tour was primarily for fun, and that it was. We also visited Amoeba Records in Berkeley, one of the greatest record stores in the world, and Aquarius, one of the greatest small record stores in the world, and ate Senegalese food in the Mission District. Also, gourmet vegetarian food at Green's in Fort Mason, surprisingly delicious Indian food at a cheap dive near Union Square called Naan and Curry, and other food -- Ethiopian, Italian, American breakfasts, etc. Went to Alcatraz, the Exploratorium, Golden Gate Park, Chinatown, and walked around and had fun. Most fun band tour I ever had! :)
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I've found the "get out of the car frequently to stretch" thing works well for me also. Someone else driving also helps (kudos to your girlfriend, and my wife and kids). Glad to hear that things went well - you didn't mention pain and grief, so it sounds like it went better than expected. You also packed quite a bit of fun stuff in there - apparently with no negative effect. After the problems you were describing, I feel good for you that it was a great few days !! Tom

www.stoneflyrocks.com

Acoustic Color

 

Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt

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The pain killers and muscle relaxants worked pretty well. I just don't complain that much about my own pain, I guess. I do complain about other things, though!! :) Saturday, there was a lot of lifting, and so I was pretty sore. Intermittent soreness here and there. One thing that is difficult to contend with is cardiovascular condition. I should swim more, but I don't. When one is in this much pain, the aerobic/cardiovascular condition goes right out the window. Walking up and down hills in Chinatown was actually tiring, and normally, I cruise right up hills and can hike for 15 miles straight. If one has this, I would definitely recommend swimming or doing something else to keep in shape.
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Thanks for the advice. Trying not to do heavy lifting. e of those really cool -- uh, i don't know what they're called, actually -- they look like a sort of lightweight handtruck that you see people sometimes using in airports. That may help a little. My amp is really tiny. I am still using my 15 year old Polytone MiniBrute II, which is the size of most people's practice amps, but is astonishingly 100 watts. I have a 1967 SG, so my guitar is not super heavy. Just trying to keep the load down!!
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  • 3 weeks later...
Got back from the orthopedic surgeon, who looked at the lab report and the MRI. Definitely a ruptured disc. A BIG ruptured disc. Pretty bad. Even I could see it on the MRI (before the doctor looked at it -- I have my own MRIs). Now to explore options, including the possibility of finding another, better doctor if I need to perform the surgery.
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If you need all this medication, and you have a good diagnosis, get the surgery. One of my best friends just had surgery on three discs because he waited too long, went to chiorpractors who were to aggresive and was hesitant to go under the knive. He ended up finding a guy in Towson, Maryland who is a big sports medicine guy and does an average of twenty of these types of surgery each month. The guy is rated in the top three on the east coast for this kind of operation. My bud was back to work in less than three weeks, the procedure was about six weeks ago now. He feels better than he has in years. The main thing is to research the surgeons in you area and pick the right one. If you need, my friends surgeon might be able to recommend on in CA. My email's in my profile if you want to contact me. :thu: Best of health for you!! :thu:
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Hi! I tried emailing you, but it immediately bounced back, so I hope you don't mind if I post here instead. Thanks. I wrote: TinderArts, Thanks for the advice and support!! You're definitely right about researching the surgeons in the area. If it's not too much of a hassle, I would definitely like to know of a good back specialist/surgeon in the area. I live in Los Angeles. Definitely need a second opinion!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks again!! ------------- The main thing is to research the surgeons in you area and pick the right one. If you need, my friends surgeon might be able to recommend on in CA. My email's in my profile if you want to contact me.
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Our drummer is a plumber by day, and has hurt his back pretty seriously twice since I've known him (10 yrs.). The most recent one, he was off work for quite a while, with uncontrollable twinges and pain up and down his legs. His docs were talking surgery, but asked him to try extended physical therapy first. They, too saw the slipped discs on an MRI, but there is more and more evidence that the reason the discs are not aligned has to do with the muscles around the spine and not some kind of thing that a chiropractor can "adjust" or a surgeon can fuse. Steve's been fine for two or three years now. No knife, no back cracks, no painkillers. Both my mom and one of my sisters had disc surgery, which relieved the symptoms, but at a heavy physical and monetary cost. Every case is different, but we're finding cures for ulcers with antibiotics not surgery, depression with drugs not extended psychotherapy, so treating back pain with specific supervised exercise instead of surgery or chiropractic seems like a good thing to try. Just last week, a study revealed that some arthritis operations have no greater success than people who were given placebo procedures. Best of luck to you. Henry

He not busy being born

Is busy dyin'.

 

...Bob Dylan

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Hi, Ken -- I feel your pain. I really do. I just got back from out of town and saw this thread -- so thought I'd offer a couple of thoughts. I had disc surgery about 7 years ago -- ruptured disc at L4/L5. I had little time to think about the whole thing, since my particular symptom was that I could not stand on my right leg and then raise myself to stand on tiptoe. In other words, my brain would tell my foot to stand on tiptoe, and nothing would happen. Bottom line -- there was a chunk of disc material impinging on the sciatic nerve, and I risked permanant nerve damage if I didn't get it removed right away. How did the surgery go? Beautifully. I am perfectly fine today, and am fully active (including skiing, golfing, tennis, etc.). I can also tell you that I have several friends who have had the same surgery (called a "laminectomy") -- and they came through with flying colors -- perfectly fine. As a longtime back sufferer, I previously had a slightly herniated disc, and the problem was solved without surgery by taking prednisone (a steroid), which shrunk the disc material that was impinging on the sciatic nerve, and allowed it to float free. Also, there is a difference between a "bulged disc" -- where the disc has not yet ruptured, and a "herniated disc" -- where it has ruptured [it really is better not to use the term "slipped disc"]. Each scenario calls for a different approach. One final thought for now. I investigated this area extremely thoroughly before making a decision as to my ultimate treatment, and came to the conclusion that I definitely wanted to be treated by a neurosurgeon, as opposed to an orthopedic surgeon. Give this some serious thought before proceeding. Also, I wanted my neurosurgeon to be conservative when it came to putting people under the knife. I felt much better with my own neurosurgeon's recommendation for surgery, in light of the fact that he had preferred non-surgical measures to address prior disc problems. Anyway, enough for now -- but please feel free to e-mail me for any further dialogue. I have *plenty* more to say on this topic, and I'm only to happy to help . Good luck! Jim mojohaiku@earthlink.net
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