OT-Apollo moon mission impossible today?

[meccajay]

<> I hear ya Chip, and it sounds as if the space program works well and fine, and has contributed to our society. My point is this, The space PROGRAM contributes, but nothing comes from space!! Those programs, research, science and technological advancements are a result of the program itself, not the results from extensive moon or planetary exploration or biological studies or discoveries. What if we took those billions spent on the space program over the years, and put them into and "Earth and Ocean" program, equally as ambitious as the space program has been in the last 30 year etc?! What if we could get the same technological side benifits as we do in the space program that cannot be gained from cross platform research as you mentioned, and also get DIRECT scientific, biological, and medical advancements from the same program?! I bet that our world would be a much better, much healthier place for us, and a much healthier earth. Just as the space PROGRAM has added value to earth technology. I trully believe that an ocean and earth program could lead to medical and scientific advances we could scarcely imagine. It just needs to be done with the same ambition.

[Roto]

[quote]Originally posted by Hippie: [b] Not totally. there is more timber available today than there was in the 1920's. The Cuyahoha river in Ohio used to catch on fire from pollutants floating on top, this has not happened since the 50's. Water quality is better now than 35 years ago. London had such poor air quality from coal burning furnaces many people died when the weather became stagnant. Progress is good and things are better today for it.[/b][/quote]And you call yourself a hippie! Shame on you! What would your tree hugging, granola eating, Birkenstock wearing bretheren think?! ;) :D

[Tedly Nightshade]

"What if we took those billions spent on the space program over the years, and put them into and "Earth and Ocean" program, equally as ambitious as the space program has been in the last 30 year etc?! What if we could get the same technological side benifits as we do in the space program that cannot be gained from cross platform research as you mentioned, and also get DIRECT scientific, biological, and medical advancements from the same program?! I bet that our world would be a much better, much healthier place for us, and a much healthier earth." What if we found out what the hell we have here anyway before destroying it all in search of our known resources? The Pacific Yew turns out to have a cancer-fighting potential in the bark- we have been considering these "junk trees" and burning them as slash while cutting for timber. I met a guy who took samples of 50 kinds or wood found in Oregon forests to a big convention with all the timber and forestry experts in the state, public and private. He handed out samples to everyone- they were to identify the trees the wood came from. The person who did best identified less than 10- most only got three or four. He then asked, OK, what is done commercially with willow? Nobody had a clue. Willow is used to make the top bars of Celtic harps and the bracing on violin family instruments- good willow is very valuable to the right people. That was just one of the 45 types of wood nobody knew what to do with, and had been burning as slash and trash. They are still doing that today. And trees are only one of the types of plants, animals, fungus, and insects in the Oregon woods! We don't have a clue in hell what all we got out there, but we're destroying it all so we can sell whole logs to the Japanese, while the timber workers themselves live in mobile homes, collecting unemployment if they're lucky, and too often turning to making meth to try to feed the kids. The jobs are almost all gone to automation, and there are no pensions for workers injured on the very dangerous job. How many hundred thousand board feet of lumber does a person have to cut or mill before they can live in a wooden house, for crying out loud? Ted

[meccajay]

Ted, I agree with your issue as well. I guess what Im talking about with regard to an Earth and Ocean program is something that would center around mostly research, except in the Oceans where exploration would be as much of a necessity.. That research would of course encompass the trees, and the tree bark potential you just described. That's needed, usefull, and immediatly impacting research, and the people in this country could see there dollars working almost immediatly compared to the space program.

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: ... and I've just spent $350+ on a car stereo I don't have to have.[/quote]Done that. Three weeks after I signed the loan for a new John Deere, my car dies. But I NEED that tractor. (I settled into a six year old van that's now over ten years old, but running) [quote]Chip done said: The negative timing in my life over the past 3 months has been exemplary, to the point of seemingly being scripted.[/quote]Been there – oh, for about the last six years. Yeah, that feeling of not being in control can pull you down. The fellow scripting my life is now in very poor health and not at the helm where he should be. Unfortunately I'm a loyal puppy dog or I'd be off on my own again, trusting my own talents. But to stay with that analogy, I'm going to end up in the pound if I don't do something for myself soon. I could put you in my "downline" with "unlimited income potential" :D Just kidding man. Don't go there. I've never forgotten one episode of Cheers when Norm ambles in and Sam asks the requisite "How's life treating you Norm?" Norm: "Like he caught me in bed with his wife."

[Eric Worthington]

[quote]Originally posted by meccajay: [QBMy point is this, The space PROGRAM contributes, but nothing comes from space!! Those programs, research, science and technological advancements are a result of the program itself, not the results from extensive moon or planetary exploration or biological studies or discoveries. [/QB][/quote]I'll give you an example. As Carl Sagan has said, by studying other planets, we can learn more about our own. And, since we can't experiment on a planetary scale, we can look at other planets and apply the lessons here. On Venus, the temperature gets up to 900 degrees Farenheit. Sagan and a team of astrophysicists, in studying conditions on Venus, developed the Greenhouse theory--the realization that CO2 and other gases collect in the atmosphere, keeping heat from escaping into space, which builds up yet a thicker atmosphere, which holds in more heat, etc., etc., until the planet is so hot it can't sustain life as we know it. What's it got to do with us? Armed with this knowledge, the scientific community was able to present a case to the business community that we are heading into disaster if we don't drastically cut down our emissions, particularly CFC's. In other words, science was able to force Dupont, one of the largest, nastiest chemical manufacturers in our planet's history, to completely change part of their business. By studying Jupiter, and more importantly her moons, we can learn yet more about our own planet.

[meccajay]

Eric, I do think we can learn more from those studies, but not to the extent weve previously been studying. Im no expert on science etc, so Im not debating you, but werent most of Carl Sagan's studies based in the 60's and 70's?? Like the Windstorms on Mars etc.. My point is just to say that what has happened from the space program was good-not bad, but NOW we need to worry about our planet, and most of all study our planet. Which means pour most of the money into a program based on earth and water. Let's face it, we dont know jack obout what goes on in our oceans...Hell were just now finding out that great white sharks fly and giant squid do exist. I know that's some pie in the sky hippie shit. It even seems like that to me, but I can't help it, it's just so obvious to me.....only me I guess. ~~No, I dont believe in bigfoot!

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by meccajay: [b]My point is this, The space PROGRAM contributes, but nothing comes from space!! [/b] [/quote]Yet. Let's say sometime in the future something goes really wrong, and the CO2 content - which is currently rising at a steady pace - suddenly shoots off. We find a chunk of O2 floating about somewhere, nudge it our way, chunk it up in orbit and let it melt into the atmosphere. Or a plague does something to the soil on earth. Can't grow food, there's not enough uncontaminated soil. Find a big asteroid in the Kiuper belt, heat up both ends of it with a big mylar mirror and spin it. Balloons out. Stick in some 02 and nitrogen, tilt the mirrors and put some mirrors inside - giant garden. Somewhere out there it's not unreasonable to think there's chunk of diamond floating about, who knows how big; that'd be pretty useful. As it stands, the CIA has satellites sniffing around the moon; the "search for life" in the solar system includes looking for organic compounds - methane.... I suspect we'd suddenly find all sorts of new ground/orbit orbit/ground solutions happening if it turned out there's an asteroid nearby with petrol in it (then we'd HAVE to have the O2/N asteroid to make up for that debacle..). The earth is running out of area. We're already past the point of practical sustainability for the life that's here. We're going to HAVE to go "somewhere" eventually. Ultimately we'll have to terraform Mars. But in the meantime we've got it really good right now, and we'll probably continue to be dumb human animals until we HAVE to do something more. The ocean holds promise for medicine; but the space program has yielded results just the same, tangible results. It wouldn't make sense to try to switch gears. Also - biotech is poised to explode "soon", and it might make the whole point moot. A more sensible compromise would be money spent trying to save the rain forests, since research shows there's a dearth of helpful compounds to be found there that we've only scratched the surface of finding. As a side benefit, we get some CO2 scrubbing along the way...

[meccajay]

We could just terraform our deserts :cool: but, I do get your point Chip. You're looking out for the best interests of all.