Repeal Amendment 16

[Wewus432]

Hey alcohol: What's up my brother Interesting figure, 80 per cent of the wealth is owned by 20 per cent of the people. Therein lies a large part of our age old problem. The rich keep getting richer and everybody else gets screwed. The income tax system was set up so the more you make the more you pay in taxes. In reality this is not what has happened. That top 20 per cent are very intelligent people and some of them are not the most honest people. They have learned all the many loopholes in our troubled system of taxation and if the figures were known I think they would show on the average they pay a SMALLER percentage than most middle class wage earners. THAT is the reason THE INCOME TAX has survived this long. It IS supported by the rich. They have learned all it's flaws and loopholes and used them to their maximum benefit. This is in a way the same conflict that existed when our country began and The Bill Of Rights was written. Back then the two groups were called The Federalist and The Anti-Federalist, or as they are commonly known the rich and the poor. BTW the Anti-Federalist were the ones who INSISTED on a BILL Of Rights before they would ratify the document.

[Franknputer]

miroslav, what if you applied the same arguments to, say, the Fire Department? My house has never caught fire, yet my taxes pay for them. Why not make those whose houses actually burn down pay for them? Why should I pay because somebody else fell asleep with a cigarette in their hands? I pay for it so that it's there for me, whether I need it or not. I pay so that, if my neighbor has an accident or does something stupid, it doesn't ruin my life too. I pay out of compassion for others as well, in the hopes that I do not have to fend for myself against everything that might happen in the world. As for education, I pay to live in a society that is made up of educated people - a real neccessity when everyone gets to vote. Do you want an uneducated population deciding what makes good law and what doesn't? I personally think we spend far too much on military bloat rather than education. You could double federal spending on education with monies from the defense budget, and the defense budget would still be responsible for over 50% of the tax burden. Schools (and the lives of thousands of kids) could be vastly improved - and the military would have to figure out how to buy a hammer for less that $150.

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by GeorgeVW: And read my post again, please. I categorically state that I do not object to paying property tax, or to having that tax money used for education, despite the fact that, by your definition, I should be one of the ones hollering the loudest, since we have no kids. On the contrary, I don't feel ripped off by property taxes, at all. Perhaps because I happen to believe that it is the responsibility of society as a whole to ensure the education of the populace, not just those who have children.[/quote]George, We seem to be dancing around our points. You can complain or not complain about taxes...that's your individual call. Here are my point as basic as I can make them. I think we are ultimately on the same side…it's just how we get there that we possibly don't agree on. Taxes can/should be used to pay for education. Society should be responsible for educating children, and not just the people that have kids. BUT...if you have kids...your responsibility and financial burden should be DIRECTLY proportional to the number of kids you have...THAT is just FAIR. Real estate tax is NOT the way to do it. This is something that was started a long time ago and will probably stay with us...but it's a cop out by the system…“let's just tax the people that live in a politically determined school district"...that isn't fair. I think education should be administered at the national level...not necessarily by the Federal Government...maybe some National Board of Education, and taxes for this education should be spread out equally across the whole country...but the people that have kids should assume a slightly greater responsibility…isn't that fair. Otherwise, you have a rich school districts that can collect (drain) higher taxes...able to provide much more robust school programs. But in a lower income area...less taxes are collected and therefore the school system is not as advanced. I also notice that as a particular living area becomes more sought after...people with higher incomes move in...then after awhile the real estate tax rate starts to climb, slowly squeezing out all the lower income residents. That...is indirect but conscious public school segregation...no matter how you cut it. If you want your kids going to a special, private school...then you can pay even more, but PUBLIC schools should all be on the same page…all over the nation. So...as I stated...I'm more for education than you realize...but collecting taxes through real estate property is not the fair way to pay for it...and it will not improve the education system in this country...ever, there has to be one, national system, where ALL public schools are on the same level...that's fair.

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: miroslav, what if you applied the same arguments to, say, the Fire Department? My house has never caught fire, yet my taxes pay for them. Why not make those whose houses actually burn down pay for them? Why should I pay because somebody else fell asleep with a cigarette in their hands?[/quote]Sorry Franknputer...but you can't apply the "Fire Department" analogy to this education issue...apples/oranges. A house catching on fire...or not catching on fire…has NOTHING to do with someone having kids or not having kids...does it? Most fires are accidents...are you saying that most families are accidents too? I think that when a couple gets married...and then decides to have 1, 2, 3....?…kids, they should also be thinking a bit more about the future of/for those kids that they are planning to have. I think to many folks first have kids...and THEN think about the future. What really is annoying, is the families living at the poverty/low income level...but they keep having kids...5, 6, 7,...hey, slow down, how are you gonna' feed them, dress them and educate them??? Ohhhhh...you mean you are going to dump them on society and then demand some kind of social consciousness...well...where was YOUR social consciousness when you were knocking them out...4, 5, 6,.... Have as many kids as you want to...BUT...YOU...YES YOU...you need to be PRIMARILY responsible for those kids...NOT society. Society is there to provide support…not to assume the whole burden.

[alcohol]

Wewus good post I've had enough tax talk for now. Back to the music.

[Dogfur]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]alpha, Do you know the differences between opinions and facts? Doesn't matter how deeply you feel about something, it's just an opinion without evidence. Remember, 80% of the wealth is owned by only 20% of the people. As a person earns more income they pay a greater rate of taxes. [/b][/quote]Al: I agree with alot of what you say, but here you refer to the importance of facts, then site innacurate generalizations - I don't have a source, but would be surprised if 80% of the wealth was owned by even 15% to 10% of the people - and we all know that the tax table that a majority of "us" on this BBS use does not apply to those off the chart - The very same "20%" you have sited previously. The system is set up to have lower and middle class wage earners pay more of the burden, and ease the restrictions on extremely high income levels, so as to protect and fund their additional growth. It is no coincedence that most legislators ( and more importantly, their campaign contributors )fall into this "off-the-chart" catagory. I refer to my previous post again: all this debate amongst us plebes is moot until the goddamned laws and lawmakers are fired, impeached or repealed and punished for not serving the public trust.

[Kendrix]

Yeah its seems most everyone agrees that are some functions that governments should perform and that all tax monies raised should be spent effectively on these things. So, some appropriate level of tax to accomoplish this is supported by most normal folks. What bugs me is the fact that, by way of the structure of the income tax, the government seems to have given itself the authority to keep all our income if it chooses. Conversely it and it alone decides how much of our income we get to keep. So, strucutrally, the income tax can be seen as much more "contolling" than say a sales or use tax. At least with a sales or use tax the money gets into your pockets first. Then you get to decide when/how/how much of it to spend (and on what).

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]Sorry Franknputer...but you can't apply the "Fire Department" analogy to this education issue...apples/oranges. A house catching on fire...or not catching on fire…has NOTHING to do with someone having kids or not having kids...does it? Most fires are accidents...are you saying that most families are accidents too? I think that when a couple gets married...and then decides to have 1, 2, 3....?…kids, they should also be thinking a bit more about the future of/for those kids that they are planning to have. I think to many folks first have kids...and THEN think about the future. What really is annoying, is the families living at the poverty/low income level...but they keep having kids...5, 6, 7,...hey, slow down, how are you gonna' feed them, dress them and educate them??? Ohhhhh...you mean you are going to dump them on society and then demand some kind of social consciousness...well...where was YOUR social consciousness when you were knocking them out...4, 5, 6,.... Have as many kids as you want to...BUT...YOU...YES YOU...you need to be PRIMARILY responsible for those kids...NOT society. Society is there to provide support…not to assume the whole burden.[/b][/quote]Actually, I'm sure it's safe to say that a large number of the children born to families ARE accidents. That argument cuts both ways, anyhow - who told the guy who burned his house down to smoke? That's HIS/HER own doing. Why didn't s/he have their electrical system inspected? Isn't that their responsibility as a homeowner? Also, by paying taxes that support the school system you are NOT carrying the full economic burden of raising a child. Even the education alone costs extra - school supplies, money for activities, fees, even tuition - yes tuition for public school. I agree that people with little economic means should be exercising better judgement, not to mention using birth control. You know how they achieve this? Education.

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]The statistic that the overall tax burden is 26% is based on the National Income which is a percentage of the totality of all incomes earned in the US, not just yours. You might be paying more than 26%, but the overall tax rate still amounts to 26%. I personally pay around 40% in Federal taxes and I figure about another 10% goes to all other taxes. That's me, not everyone else. Remember, 80% of the wealth is owned by only 20% of the people. As a person earns more income they pay a greater rate of taxes. The overall tax rate isn't based on the highest tax rate but on the percentage of taxes on the National Income. .[/b][/quote]uh... look at what you posted. do you realize how many people are BELOW poverty level throwing that tax AVERAGE? an average which ONLY includes federal taxation? the middle class bubble has already been noted but i will say it again. the middle class makes up for that 20% and the group who is below taxable levels. it is what keeps society at bay and the government in "control"... which is heavily lobbied by the upper 20% who pay a far lower percentage than the middle class. they whine that they pay more in dollar amounts but the amounts they pay in dollars are easily spent while the dollars spent by middle class no matter how meager detrimentally effect their ability to grow financially.... much less save. time for my favorite bumper sticker: abolish slavery- get rid of the irs and federal reserve. you might think i speak with my ass but you think with your ass.

[henryrobinett]

I seriously have looked at the option of a national sales tax. Those who spend more pay more. Those who want to save can. Those who can't afford are still given some kind of special dispensation. The bureaucracy is already in place because of the state sales tax. We could get rid of that monstrostrous, expensive, bureaucratic nightmare of the IRS. Bury it. Never again.

[alcohol]

alpha that is not an average of only federal taxes. It's an average of total taxes. You can look up the Congressional Budget tables. They have a history, and you'll see that the tables lists all federal taxes at roughly 19 to 20 percent of GDP, year after year. So alpha let's see what new level of expletive you can decend to.

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: I agree that people with little economic means should be exercising better judgement, not to mention using birth control. You know how they achieve this? Education.[/quote]Hehehe...OK...I think things are starting to get a little twisted and going off in some unrelated tangents. So...I guess if I don't pay my real estate school tax... some kid won't get educated... and won't learn about birth control... and won't learn the concept that life costs money... and so it will be my fault... hehehe...OK... another burden/guilt trip I'll add to my world... hehehe... I always thought that things like "responsibility", "sex education", “right & wrong” and basic “morals and ethics” should be primarily taught at the home/family level...but I guess many people just won't/can't deal with it...so it becomes "society's" burden instead. One last time...I'm for education and social responsibility and consciousness...but, if it doesn't start at home...then it's not right for society to take the blame.

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]So alpha let's see what new level of expletive you can decend to.[/b][/quote]how about alcohol? seems you are profane enough.

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]Hehehe...OK...I think things are starting to get a little twisted and going off in some unrelated tangents. [/b][/quote]Looks that way, doesn't it? :) [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] So...I guess if I don't pay my real estate school tax... some kid won't get educated... and won't learn about birth control... and won't learn the concept that life costs money... and so it will be my fault... hehehe...OK... another burden/guilt trip I'll add to my world... hehehe... I always thought that things like "responsibility", "sex education", “right & wrong” and basic “morals and ethics” should be primarily taught at the home/family level...but I guess many people just won't/can't deal with it...so it becomes "society's" burden instead. One last time...I'm for education and social responsibility and consciousness...but, if it doesn't start at home...then it's not right for society to take the blame.[/b][/quote]It's not about who's to blame, but what's to be done about it, IMO. It definitely takes support from home - throwing money at kids doesn't turn them into good adults. Having to choose between one or the other, they'd be far better off with support from home. However, children learn from more than just their parents - they learn from everyone around them. Having access to enough resources (and being able to pay others a decent wage for their direction & guidance) goes a long way towards positive growth, and can make a real life-altering difference in cases where they can't get that support from home. My original point was that it does in fact benefit you to help them - you're not giving anyone a free ride, you're just paying to live in a better world. In the end, you have to live with them. Consider it from a purely self-centered point of view - They can be in school, building a future; or they could be robbing your house while you're at work, because they have no future.

[popstalin]

What I want to know is, how many states have a tax for work? In PA we have to pay a tax for the right to work? I thought I was already paying my taxes! My state taxes come out of my paycheck... yet I'm hit every year with a $15 "Right to Work" tax.... yippy. I wish if they were going to screw me they'd at least use KY!

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by wondercrush: [b]What I want to know is, how many states have a tax for work? In PA we have to pay a tax for the right to work? I thought I was already paying my taxes! My state taxes come out of my paycheck... yet I'm hit every year with a $15 "Right to Work" tax.... yippy. I wish if they were going to screw me they'd at least use KY![/b][/quote]You want them to use Kentucky to screw you ?!? :freak: :eek: :D

[popstalin]

KY Jelly

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: My original point was that it does in fact benefit you to help them - you're not giving anyone a free ride, you're just paying to live in a better world. In the end, you have to live with them. Consider it from a purely self-centered point of view - They can be in school, building a future; or they could be robbing your house while you're at work, because they have no future.[/quote]No argument here...I think kids deserve the biggest breaks available. I was just pissin' and moanin' about real estate school tax, I just don't think it is a nationally fair way to pay for education. Too many extreams...one school district is full of expensive homes...so guess what, the tax rate is higher and more money goes to that school district. But in a poor school district the kids deserve even BIGGER breaks than the rich kids...so..real estate school tax is not a fair, equitable way to fund education. All public schools in the entire country should get the same amount of money per student...regardless of how rich or poor the school distict is. Real estate school tax is not the fair way...something else is needed. So...as you can see, I want an even better education system... OK...back to taxes. The whole tax system is all screwed up...and it is sooooo complicated...between municipal, county, state and federal taxes...it is one big mess and I don't think there is a single tax system anywhere right now that is fair to all. Is there one tax...nationally...that is exactly the same for every person...?

[Franknputer]

Well, I definitely agree that the tax system is fudup. Just had to jump in for education, which I really feel passionately about. but the taxes must be fair & equitable - I mean, if a man can earn a [i]billion[/i] dollars in a country, if he's taxed at a 50% rate [i]for the priviledge of living in a place where he [b]can[/b] earn a billion dollars,[/i] he's still rich as hell - how has he been harmed? My 0.02, which is worth 0.012579 after taxes :)

[Ultravibe]

Evidently, many of our Senators and Representatives started their careers as lawyers. So all of our lawmakers are lawyers. That should be a conflict of interest! Drew

[alcohol]

If anybody wants to really be informed about real overall tax rates go here: http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy1999/maindown.html download the historical tables. These tables show that the overall tax rate against GDP, including state and local taxes is 30% and have been relatively close to that rate for several decades. http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html this webpage shows that the average federal tax for all taxpayers is 14.8% http://www.hickoryhill.com/Connecticut/1998MarketData/3-4.htm while this table goes back to 1994 it gives the overall local and state tax rates on the US overall as 9.43. Tables show that combining the 14.8 % of US fed taxes and the 9.43% of state and local taxes is 24.23%, a number pretty close to the rate of 26% I mentioned earlier. It's a pity that people who are quick to call others a "fucking idiot" aren't quick enough to consider that they might be wrong. [URL=http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy1999/maindown.html ]US government Budget tables[/URL] [url=http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html]Federal tax as a percentage of income tables[/url] [URL=/www.hickoryhill.com/Connecticut/1998MarketData/3-4.htm ]Local and state tax percentages[/URL]

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by wondercrush: [b]KY Jelly[/b][/quote]Tried that once...tasted horrible with peanut butter. :eek:

[Gator Wing]

[quote]Originally posted by wondercrush: [b]...I'm hit every year with a $15 "Right to Work" tax...[/b][/quote]Here in the Harrisburg area its only $10 and called an occupational tax. Philly has its own city tax, 5.75%!!!!!!!!