Wewus432 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Are you people tired of this subject yet? Amendment 16 to The Constitution Of The United States Of America. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. OK, I entertained supporters of trashing The Bill Of Rights now I'd like to hear all those IN FAVOR of income taxes. After all the abuse, misspending and corruption WHY do we continue to collect money this way? Everybody hates it and there are other, better less intrusive ways to collect taxes. So all you supporters of the income tax tell me your views. Here's mine-REPEAL AMENDMENT 16!!!!!!!!!! Follow this link to find out more about [url=http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/bill_of_rights/bill_of_rights.html]The Constitution[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 OK, I'll play..... Income tax is not a terrible way to collect taxes. People are gonna bitch about being taxed whether it's income, sales, estate, corporate, or any other scheme. BUT - we have to pay for the services we demand one way or another. That the tax is badly administered is not the fault of Amendment 16. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 the question isnt collecting taxes at all, its how big a portion of our income they take to support a bloated government who really doesnt use our money for good but rather waste it in a bureaucratic manner. what do they REALLY spend our money on that benefits US [thats WE the people, not the US]? alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popstalin Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I think that, in the beginning, that the founding fathers had the right idea but it went astray somewhere along the way. I don't know much about the history of the british coming here to escape their government but it sure seems as though it's coming full circle and we got no where to go! On the other side, taking 30% of what I make isn't fair. I live in a shitty apartment and make just enough money to pay the bills and if I'm lucky sometimes I get to eat (I think the roaches are better fed than me.) Everyone has their hand out in the government. The president gets free housing, govenors get free housing, how is this fair? Let's not forget about transportation, they don't have to pay for that either. The vote to give eachother raises and where does that money come from? Our taxes? Of course it does, shouldn't we be the ones to decide if our elected representatives get raises? That would be like me and my co-workers saying that we should vote on raises! Who the hell is gonna say no?!?!?!? Sorry, this topic pisses me off. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and I know how lucky I am compared to other countries but I hate our corrupt government! Jen H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfjunkie Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 if any of our european forum friends see that you only pay 30%, they'll go like this: :eek: you guys are kidding yourselves. no one [i]likes[/i] to pay taxes, but unless you suggest alternatives, or rebuke specific areas of government spending, you just look... well, :rolleyes: sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popstalin Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I think I said that I know we are better off than others, but what I am saying is that our tax money shouldn't be used in some of the ways that it is. I realize in England, for instance, that they are taxed for everything but when my check is damn near half of what I earned, there's something wrong with that. My point is, the people that are using the taxes are living better because of the taxes... USA and Europe! Jen H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 American system of taxation has one of the highest rates of compliance in the world. The ability to fund government operations helps keep the economy and the running of society stable. I don't like to pay for anything, electricity, water my equipment; however, we get to decide how we tax and spend through our elected representatives. In any consensus building mechanism no one will be happy 100% of the time. While someone might feel we should cut back on spending and taxes across the board, someone might feel we need to increase military spending, or someone might think we need to invest more in education. Disageement abounds in society and the ballot box is where we iron these disagreements out. I think that those who complain about the state's taxing ability are really expressing their impotence at convincing others to see their way. Personally, I know that government can deliver some services better than non governmental institutions. The failure rate of businesses and the efficiency of the typical business makes me laugh at the idea that government doing things the way a business does is necessarily better. Although there is argument against mixed economies, the history of the last 50 years show that some redistribution of wealth by taxation and government spending actually stimulates the country making all, even the rich, richer than if that involvement were absent. I'd personally prefer to pay a little more in taxes than experience the wide swings of the business cycle formerly experienced in the dark old days (think Great Derpression). "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: ...there are other, better less intrusive ways to collect taxes.[/quote]Wewus, what are those other ways? I think when the government (municipal/state/federal) finds ANY WAY to stick its hand into your pocket...most people that bitch about income tax...will also bitch about any other tax. If they lower income tax...but kill you on say…sales tax...that won't make people happy. My big bitch is real estate tax. You pay tax on the land when you buy it...then they tax you on it for as long as you have it, and then again when you sell it. In some towns they have high-end public services that get funded by those taxes. But in a more rural setting, like where I am, I don't get shit from my town...maybe snow removal on the streets and the occasional pot hole that gets fixed. Most of the real estate tax is the STUPID school tax...which is a rip-off for people that don't have kids. Why the hell should I pay to have my neighbors kids driven to school by bus...it a god-damn taxi service!!! What the hell does the that have anything to do with education. She should get off her fat ass and just drive the kids to school...instead of standing in the driveway in her nightgown waving good by every morning. Also, why should seniors, like my parents, have to keep paying taxes when they finished putting their kids through school a long time ago. And, people that pay for private school, like my folks did (we weren't rich, it was a struggle for my parents)…should NOT also have to pay a school tax…that's paying twice for the same thing! Also, some people that feel the need to over populate the world by having a dozen kids…should have to pay more than the family that only has one or two kids!!! As alpha said, "...the question isn't collecting taxes at all, its how big a portion of our income they take...". So, what difference does it make WHAT kind of tax they call it...and how they get it from you...it is about your GROSS INCOME minus a ______ tax(s)...and that is it. The amount that is taken probably can be reduced without wiping out needed programs...but that is one hell of a can of worms to open...and the politicians have been arguing over that for years...what to cut, what to spend on. Look at a country like Sweden (I think it's Sweden)...they don't mind paying more taxes as long as the government will take care of all their needs...and up to now they seem to have some very deep government programs concerning education, health and employment. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I don't mind paying for living here, but I'm more in favor of a government sales tax myself - seems easier to spread the equity around fairly. Exclude taxes on food, but pay a percentage on cars, TVs, etc. etc. - the fancier your toys, the more you pay in taxes. Certainly not perfect, but I think more equitable & honest than the current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]however, we get to decide how we tax and spend through our elected representatives.[/b][/quote]well thats the biggest load of shit i have read in a while. and when you add up ALL the taxes... its a LOT more than 30%, more like 50%. when the country started, we paid on average $12 a person [inflation ADJUSTED] now we pay $10,000. and wtf does our government REALLY do for us? health care is out the roof, roads are taken care of on the state level, obviously they sit on their asses militarily [9-11 happened, it SHOULDNT have], education is funded in large parts by other means and poorly at that. corporations are allowed to operate at freewill [and pay lower tax rates], churches dont even PAY taxes. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeVW Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I don't have kids, yet I gladly pay taxes to support schools, since the value of living in an educated society (now as to whether that's currently happening is another debate that I'd be glad to throw in my $.02 and then some) is, IMHO, inestimable. Without a common educational base, a society loses the common cultural glue that helps to hold it together. Without quality education, which takes money (among many other things), you end up with kids who think it's cool and groovy to wear swastikas and SS emblems (a story from yesterday's news, from Orange County, CA, a place that perhaps not coincidentally also gave us the Aryan Nation and the modern skinhead movement) because they've never learned just exactly what it is those symbols stand for. Without common cultural references, communication breaks down and society splits asunder with even more differentiation between the haves (those that can afford to educate their children) and the have-nots (them what cain't). All in all, I prefer to live in a society where people get my jokes. George [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] Most of the real estate tax is the STUPID school tax...which is a rip-off for people that don't have kids. W... Also, why should seniors, like my parents, have to keep paying taxes when they finished putting their kids through school a long time ago. And, people that pay for private school, like my folks did (we weren't rich, it was a struggle for my parents)…should NOT also have to pay a school tax…that's paying twice for the same thing! [/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarf Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Here in Quebec, it doesn't take long before the gov't takes 50% of your pay (it starts somewhere around $30K/yr US). Add a 15.5% sales tax on almost everything you buy and you quickly realise that it just ain't worth it. -- Rob I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Thanks GeorgeVW - I wish more people would realize that education benefits EVERYONE, not just your kids or their kids or mine. I want to live in a society where we are all competant & able to contribute, not where it's just I-got-mine-now-go-get-yours. IMHO, this is the sort of thinking that gives us a world full of young people who can't make change for a dollar without a machine to tell them how much it should be. Next time you're stuck in the slow-moving line at the grocery store, or Burger King, or wherever - consider how this person's level of functioning impacts YOUR life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I think the real problem is that there is so much corrupt shit going on in government. With no real accountability. Also, having lived in Europe, I know my standard of living was much higher there, making less money after taxes. I felt I got alot more for my tax money than in North-America. The schools were better, etc. I'm looking forward to the day I can move back there for good. Mark IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uh Clem Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by wondercrush: [b]I think that, in the beginning, that the founding fathers had the right idea but it went astray somewhere along the way. [/b][/quote]Yes it did and that is the topic of this post. The 16th Amendment was signed into law in 1913 by Woodrow Wilson, hardly a founding father. It was in response to an income tax enacted by Congress in 1884 that was almost immediately declared unconsitutional. Even after that only the wealthiest paid taxes - 90% were completely exempt. With World War II, they started cranking it up on everyone - country club dues is what I call it - that is what America is these days - one big country club. Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital www.bullmoondigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I don't know how they do it, but here in Japan I pay less tax and get more. The biggest thing is health care. Through my work I get 80% of all my health expenses paid and if I have any large hospital bills there is a fund to cover what I can't pay. I had health coverage through my job in the U.S. but here everyone has health insurance by law. So I don't know why the situation in America continues. People are getting rich at the expense of sick people and something should be done about it. Of course the big ticket item for American taxpayers is the defense budget. Well, OK, I guess it's better to kill people than to heal them. :eek: Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted June 18, 2002 Author Share Posted June 18, 2002 I read an article that said 1 per cent of the Gross National Product of the U.S goes towards paperwork and the administration of the IRS. That's is a huge sum of money and totally ridiculous to me. You shouldn't spend that much money on collections. The whole system is FUCKED! One way to collect money for taxes would be a huge luxury tax. Tax the shit out of cars over forty grand, yachts, other high dollar items. The people who buy stuff like that wouldn't even blink at the extra fees. A federal sales tax would generate a humungous amount of money. Then you cut cost to the BONE. It's got to be done. The income tax is too intrusive. I think it's bizarre, cumbersome, and in the end unenforceable to track how much money every wage earner makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 too bad its the other way around, the more you make the less percentage you pay. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfur Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 There are some great points being made here, but until our state and federal reps are held accountable for their spending, it is all moot. Think about it - Education and social service cuts, expanded "Police" powers, increases on military spending AND ridiculous and unjust "wars" on terrorism and drugs to boot ( That the current, and previous administrations will profit from )all ways to empower federal govt. and NOT let money get back to the people - There is NO WAY the "haves" are going to ease the burdon on the "have-nots" until we string 'em up by the nads ... Woof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 It's not true that the average tax burden is 50%. It's about 26% and the perecntage of taxes against GDP hasn't dramatically changed in at least half a century. People who say the average tax burden is 50% are just talking from their feelings, not from an actual look at the facts. Does that mean I want to pay more taxes? No, I'd like to pay the least amount of taxes possible. Am I willing to pay taxes for what I feel are necessary services? Yes. It's a democratic process. It's not a load of shit that taxes are a consequence of political efforts. In Massachusetts the people were fed up with local city and town taxes going through the roof and we passed a law, Proposition 2 1/2, that has effectively constrained the rise of local property taxes for at least the last 25 years. There is always a weighing of services to the burden of taxes and people take these issues seriously and so vote. If your not getting your point of view implemented it's because your arguments have not convinced the people who vote to take your side. Cynicism always masquerades for sophistication in the mouths of the impotent. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by gtrmac: [b]I don't know how they do it, but here in Japan I pay less tax and get more. The biggest thing is health care. Through my work I get 80% of all my health expenses paid and if I have any large hospital bills there is a fund to cover what I can't pay. I had health coverage through my job in the U.S. but here everyone has health insurance by law. So I don't know why the situation in America continues. People are getting rich at the expense of sick people and something should be done about it. Of course the big ticket item for American taxpayers is the defense budget. Well, OK, I guess it's better to kill people than to heal them. :eek: [/b][/quote]speaking of the `I don`t know how they do it` file, how is it that, in a nation of label-crazed shopaholics, the average rate of savings is still far higher than in the U.S.? I feel like I basically got ZERO for the years I put into the labor market stateside, and lived at no small risk to my health. Something is seriously screwed up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by GeorgeVW: I don't have kids, yet I gladly pay taxes to support schools, since the value of living in an educated society (now as to whether that's currently happening is another debate that I'd be glad to throw in my $.02 and then some) is, IMHO, inestimable.[/quote]George...and Franknputer...guys, read my post again…please. NO WHERE do I make ANY objections against government funded education...or state that we don't need a better education system. Quite the contrary, I think there are many bogus programs that are sucking up funds that could/should go toward education. I'm just complaining about REAL ESTATE TAX...and the fact that homeowners...WITHOUT KIDS...or those that have already put kids through school, are being milked-dry by the STUPID, STUPID real estate tax. Money from education should come from other sources...BUT...families that have kids should really pay a bit more than those that have none. And if you can afford to have a dozen kids...then you should take responsibility for having them and reach into your own pocked a little deeper to pay for their education, instead of expecting your 75 year-old neighbors, to pay for it. One thing that is starting to really piss me off in this country is the amount of responsibility that some "parents" are trying to dump on government and the school systems. You had them...you raise them...you pay for them...what is wrong with that? And the "school taxi-service"...totally BULLSHIT. If you can't drive your kids to school...you call a taxi and pay for it...why should your "kid-less" 75 year-old neighbors pay for the "taxi-service"? Parents should sign-up at the beginning of the school year if they want to have their kids picked up by the school bus...and then they would pay a fee for that service. A bus service has NOTHING to do with education. Hell, you might as well expect your kids to be fed and dressed from the real estate school tax money too...right? Real estate tax is a property tax...how would you like it if every piece of audio gear that you own, you had to pay a constant yearly tax on...as long as you had it??? Kinda' dumb...right? OK...so in some townships the land taxes go toward township maintenance...but in others it seems to come down to 2-3 snow removal days...and a few pot holes getting fixed once in 10 years. And...what happens to ALL THAT STATE LOTTERY MONEY...isn't that supposed to go to education? I'm for education...but not for the rip-off real estate taxes...reasonable taxes, OK. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildabstaol.com Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by wondercrush: [b]I don't know much about the history of the british coming here to escape their government but it sure seems as though it's coming full circle and we got no where to go! [/b][/quote]That's perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]...and wtf does our government REALLY do for us?... ...roads are taken care of on the state level...[/b][/quote]You make some good points elsewhere in the post I quoted, but the above statement is false for many states. The federal gov't provides many monetary gifts to states for road building. They also set stupid, one size fits all, demands on the states to get that money. Case in point; I don't know if Asheville has been "blessed," with HOV lanes on highways, but many big cities have them. HOV stands for, High Occupancy Vehicle lanes. In Nashville, HOV lanes are active in one direction, at rush hours in the AM & PM, in order to encourage Nashvillians to carpool or use other public transportation. There must be at least two people in the vehicle to use the left lane. This is a stupid idea. Why? Public transportation is mediocre, at best, in Nashville. Especially for commuting on the affected highways. People commute in every direction in this city, and carpooling can be difficult. My wife drives 60 miles roundtrip, and no one she works with lives in our area AND works her shift. Typical. So why am I ranting about HOV lanes regarding road building money? The federal gov't witholds this money from the states if they don't employ various methods of encouraging public transportation, for oil conservation. Nashville has no light rail and inadequate bus transportation. So they acquiesced and added HOV lane signs to the highway. Most mornings, the HOV lane (the fast lane) is empty, while the other lanes are bumper to bumper traffic. How in the hell is this an improvement on anything? Nobody is carpooling BECAUSE of the HOV lanes, the cops write a few tickets to enforce the law, and traffic tie-up are increased causing more difficulty for the people. But it's the only way the state of Tennessee can keep those federal dollars rolling in to heavily subsidize our state's road building projects. Some states may raise most of their road building funds at the state level, but many do not. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]If your not getting your point of view implemented it's because your arguments have not convinced the people who vote to take your side.[/b][/quote]you're a fucking idiot. every single tax paying citizen would certainly vote for lower taxes, PERIOD. taxes are like rights, the with each step you lose, you never gain back again. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 alpha Obviously you're wrong and the tenor of your vocabulary reflects your frustration. Most people are intelligent enough to understand they have responsiblities to bear and that neglecting them can have worse consequences. That you can't understand that is worrisome. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeVW Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 And read my post again, please. I categorically state that I do not object to paying property tax, or to having that tax money used for education, despite the fact that, by your definition, I should be one of the ones hollering the loudest, since we have no kids. On the contrary, I don't feel ripped off by property taxes, at all. Perhaps because I happen to believe that it is the responsibility of society as a whole to ensure the education of the populace, not just those who have children. The majority of the populace here in California who voted for Proposition 13 so they could have lower property taxes at the expense of their public education system (before Prop 13, California had one of the best public education systems in the country. Since Prop 13, California schools now consistently score in the bottom 3 or 4. Unfortunately, the straight line connection between the two is now too sophisticated for those educated in the state to grasp. It's sad when the only state that has worse scores then you is Mississippi.) seem to be motivated by the now classic "I got mine, later for y'all" syndrome. I hate to think that mindset is spreading. Then again, if it spreads far enough, California schools will once again lead the nation, as long as we can convince the universe to grade on a curve. George [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b]George...and Franknputer...guys, read my post again…please. [/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphajerk Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]alpha Obviously you're wrong and the tenor of your vocabulary reflects your frustration. Most people are intelligent enough to understand they have responsiblities to bear and that neglecting them can have worse consequences. That you can't understand that is worrisome.[/b][/quote]uh, no... youre just a fucking idiot. add all the "little" taxes up and you get taxed WAY more than 26%. look on all your bills [phone, electricity, etc], add in your property taxes, your gas taxes [actually the majority of the price per gallon], your sales taxes, capital gains taxes [when applicable... and run at a higher rate than income] just add it all up. responsibilities my ass. government doesnt give a fuck about the constituants... why should i help pay for their gross overspending and bloated institution? what makes me worrisome is your blatant apathy for a system that has basically enslaved the population. alphajerk FATcompilation "if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursers Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Alphajerk, I can see where you are coming from. I would argue you're not overtaxed IF the tax monies were being effectively utilised, which they're obviously not. Down here our income tax rate is around 35 cents in the dollar on an average wage, but we also have one of the best health systems in the world. What do you get in the US for your health tax dollar - not bloody much. :freak: The Keyboard Chronicles Podcast Check out your fellow forumites in an Apple Music playlist Check out your fellow forumites in a Spotify playlist My Music: Stainless Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 alpha, So add them up. I mean really add them up. It's just your opinion. Do you know the differences between opinions and facts? Doesn't matter how deeply you feel about something, it's just an opinion without evidence. The statistic that the overall tax burden is 26% is based on the National Income which is a percentage of the totality of all incomes earned in the US, not just yours. You might be paying more than 26%, but the overall tax rate still amounts to 26%. I personally pay around 40% in Federal taxes and I figure about another 10% goes to all other taxes. That's me, not everyone else. Remember, 80% of the wealth is owned by only 20% of the people. As a person earns more income they pay a greater rate of taxes. The overall tax rate isn't based on the highest tax rate but on the percentage of taxes on the National Income. Alpha wrote: " posted 06-18-2002 03:16 AM "uh, no... youre just a fucking idiot." Alpha you talk constantly out of that other orifice, not the one under your nose, you know the other one. Soiling yourself so often is repulsive. You need to clean up your act. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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