Did Jaco Overplay?

[Dm711]

I know I am gonna open myself up with this one, but what the heck. I just got a copy of the Joni Mitchell's DVD Shadows and Light. While watching Jaco play, I was forced to ask myself "Is he doing too much?" Granted the man was a genius, but was his playing always appropriate? Have we put Jaco on a pedistal primarily based on his chops? Isn't there something to be said for knowing when not to play every note on the bass? One of several places on the video where this comes to mind is during the song The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines where Michael Brecker is soloing and Jaco is stepping all over him. Driving the grove is one thing, but jeez! Jaco is hardly leaving any space for Brecker to solo. In this show, Jaco also shares the stage with Pat Metheny who, God knows, can play LOTS of notes. However, Pat fills more of a supporting role. His antics and style don't over--shadow Joni. Say what you want, but isn't it HER gig and not Jaco's? (Perhaps he played the role of musical director, I don't know for sure.)

 

Yes, I can play Donna Lee at a slow tempo. I have learned Portrait of Tracy, and no I can't play Teen Town, or the crazy triplet riff at the end of Dry Cleaner from Des Moines. Yes, I think that Three Views of a Secret is a nice tune, and Jaco was a very tallented composer. My question is more about his style of playing bass.

 

In my day job (computer programming), we have a montra: It is not what you can do, but what you should do that is important. Does the same apply to bass, and did Jaco always follow this line of thinking?

 

Fire away...

 

Dm7

[BenLoy]

I disagree that Jaco stepped all over Brecker's solo on "Dry Cleaner", because he really forced Brecker to play over a fierce backdrop.

[SteveC]

Jaco was a great player. Chops to no end. Pioneer on the instrument. All that stuff.

 

Yes, I think he is overly idolized.

 

I would rather spend my time learning Jimmy Haslip and Yellowjackets melodies and solos. I have "Galileo (To Jaco)" down pretty well, along with many others.

 

To each his own.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

I disagree that Jaco stepped all over Brecker's solo on "Dry Cleaner", because he really forced Brecker to play over a fierce backdrop.

Absolutely! IIRC there's only bass, drums, sax and vocals on that version, and the 'sax solo' is more of a duet (or possibly duel) between Michael Brecker and Jaco. If Jaco had stepped back that track would have so much less energy and be the worse for it.

 

Alex

[george costanza]

I'm not fully familiar w/ Pastorious's work, only w/some of what he did w/ Weather Report (where, to be honest, I preferred Miroslav Vitous & Alphonso Johnson) but I do think that at times (whether because of drugs, drink or the idea that fans wanted it) he did overdo things----but that's an opinion & we all have our own.

Certainly he was very talented, compositionally as well as as a player & lots of people like his work...& not just novices who might be impressed by pyrotechnical performances.

 

Tangentially,I'd like to take a moment however to point out to younger players that he was preceded in jazz by many players who broke open the bassist's role in ways for which he's often given credit. As recently pointed out on another forum, Ellington's bassist Jimmy Blanton was a key figure in liberating the bass from the background & Mingus was a towering figure, possibly the most creative in jazz history.

[Calumet]

I think the issue is less "did Jaco overplay" and more of "Has Jaco's influence harmed bass players more than helped them".

 

Jaco was one in a million. So many players hear him and try to emulate him and just end up playing too much. I would say that Jaco was sensitive to what was going on for the most part...but most players influenced by him are just looking to get their rocks off by playing a bunch of notes.

 

You hear the same issue with most players influenced by Coltrane. They can't play inside and swinging. Coltrane COULD!

 

Listen to "Back To Oakland" by Tower of Power. Rocco is playing a bunch of notes. Chester Thompson is playing a bunch of notes. David Garribauldi (sp?) is playing a lot of note. But...it WORKS! Now...go listen to a Tower cover band. More often than not, it's a mess.

 

Hope this quick reply makes sense.

[jeremy c]

Jaco's playing is so wonderful on that DVD, I don't know how you can say that.

 

That duet with Michael Brecker is smokin'!

It would have been pretty different with a groove guy playing a repetitive bass line.

I didn't see Brecker complaining, he was playing his butt off while being pushed by Jaco.

 

My wife watched "The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines" (she had never seen Jaco live before) and her comment was "Wow, he was in the pocket from the first note!"

 

I wouldn't play what Jaco played (even if I could ) but Jaco's playing was so strong and innovative that he could play anything.

 

But of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

And of course Jimmy Haslip is a great player, ask him what he thinks about Jaco....Jimmy wouldn't be able to do what he does without Jaco's innovations opening up the door for bassists everywhere.

[The Bear Jew]

Overplaying is SO subjective. IMO, Jaco played the right stuff for the bands he was with at the time. If he tried to do the same sorts of things in a band like... say, Motorhead, he'd sound like he was overplaying because the music doesn't call for that kind of playing.

 

The same sorts of things could be said of any really skilled player... The real test, I suppose, would have been sticking Jaco with a different type of act and seeing what he did. If he was still jumping all over the place while playing "The Ace Of Spades," then I'd say he was overplaying.

 

Having said this, I think he was pretty artful with his technical skills... The stuff he did with Joni Mitchell is very clever... he makes his presence known in the music without being obnoxious and stepping on the songs.

[coyote]

No programmers really follow that mantra nowadays. As processor speeds have increased and storage & RAM become cheeap, programmers no longer bother writing efficient code. AmiPro, the old lotus word-processing program, could do more in 6mb of code than Wordperfect or MSWord could in 20mb - and that was back when 120mb drives were still three hundred bucks. And it's just gotten worse; I think the current Photoshop takes something like 6GB of disk??

 

uhh, sorry about that rant. Back on-topic.

 

Jaco came about in a time when he could. Were he to emerge today he'd be dismissed as over-the-top, as another Yngwie or something. But in those days, ELP could fill a 70,000 seat arena. People were open to experimentation, and were willing to have their head in the music as much as their booty. Jaco's blizzards of notes were incredibly appropriate to the music he was playing.

 

Originally posted by Dm7#11:

In my day job (computer programming), we have a montra: It is not what you can do, but what you should do that is important. Does the same apply to bass, and did Jaco always follow this line of thinking?

Fire away...

Dm7

[Dm711]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

My wife watched "The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines" (she had never seen Jaco live before) and her comment was "Wow, he was in the pocket from the first note!"

My wife's first comment on seeing Jaco in the video was "Where did he get those awful pants?!"

[Max Valentino]

There is a certain paradox towards virtuso playing: we love it, respect it, even idolize (and sometime deify) it, yet we also resent and are somewhat intimidated and even frightened by it.

 

Jaco was a one in a million player. His chops notwithstanding, his conceptual and compositional sense is what put so far in front of the field of other bassists. Did he overplay? That is quite subjective. In the sense of traditional, meant and potatoes playing, yes he did. But Jaco's concept was to explore and push the boundaries of what the bass can do as an instrument. He championed the "bass guitar" as an instrument in in own right, with its own, as yet unexplored pardigms, and not simply the horizontal equivilent of the vertical bass.

 

Yes, he played a lot of notes. Why? Because he could. Because his concept of the bass involved both rich harmonic movement and a very precise and highly evolved rhymical sense.

 

This is not uncommon among musical "genius'". Think of Coltrane.......

 

And, in a very poor analogy, a young and very precocious Mozart, upon both hearing and then meeting Haydn, proceeded to explain to the Master

the flaws in his just performed solo suite. Aghast by such hubris in a 9 year old, Haydn asked the young Mozart to demonstrate his "corrections" in the composition. Mozart then proceeded to play Haydn's piece, note-for-note,(from a single listening, at that!) then showed the great Haydn how his coplostion was flawed with dramatic flair, virtuosity, and attitude.

 

Why? Because his young musical genius could not be held back. Much like Jaco's.

 

I am not really a Jaco-worshiper, yet, I certainly recognize his talent and genius, and his influence on nearly every bassist since him.

 

I think the saddest part of his legacy is that he opened the door for less-talented players to to cop his bag; all the shred-fest, chop-meister bass players, who certainly have the speed and dexterity, yet none of the nuance, insight, or innner-sense of the tune which Jaco possessed.

 

At the height of his playing career, Jaco's musical sense and chops were finely honed, precise, and founded with a clarity few possessed.

He took his role as a bassist to be on equal ground with the other instruments, and entered into musical dialogues, or even sparring matches with the others. This in part would propel others to play beyond their "limitations". Brecker's solo would a good example of that; Jaco lit a fire under his butt and urged him to play an incendiary solo to climax that tune.

 

Max

[_Sweet Willie_]

I haven't seen the video/DVD in question, so I can't respond to some of the specifics.

 

Did Jaco overplay?

 

I don't know. I've always found him to be pretty tasteful -- even in his busiest, most note-filled moments. There's something about him that's electrifying when I hear him, and it is both intimidating and inspiring to me.

 

Yeah, he gets a lot of attention beyond Blanton or others. Does he deserve more than they do? Not necessarily, but if anything they deserve more rather than Jaco deserving less. Generally we bass players tend to fly a little more below the public radar than other musicians.

 

Jeremy wrote once on this board about what it was like to be a bass player when Jaco hit the scene, and the way hearing him affected his contemporaries among electric bassists. What Jeremy had written really grabbed my attention, and helped to clarify for me what kind of impact Jaco did have (and continues to have).

 

Peace.

[doc taz]

IMHO, the only bassist to probably tackle Jaco's ideas head on, without being too derivative is Sean Malone .

 

His stuff is tasty, and spans several genres, from jazz, to metal, to prog, and whatever else he has played on.

 

He's also written a book about Jaco's various techniques and musical ideas.

 

If you want to check him out, pick up the Gordian Knot albums and Cynic's "Focus".

[Dm711]

Originally posted by Max Valentino:

But Jaco's concept was to explore and push the boundaries of what the bass can do as an instrument.

I agree with that, Max, if he is doing it on his own solo recording. I just question if he is over the top at some points in Shadows and Light. Doesn't that setting call for the GROUP to make a artistic statement rather than Jaco pusing the "I'm the greatest bass player in the world!" agenda? BTW, I guess it is possible to argue that Michael Brecker is pushed on by Jaco's playing in Dry Cleaner. I am not sure if Brecker needs anyone to "push" him, however.

 

Perhaps Dry Cleaner was a bad example. There are, however, many other in that show. Black Crow, Goodbye Porkpie Hat, and Edith and the Kingpin all seem to have very busy bass parts.

 

I am curious if anybody else out there agrees with me that some of the artistry of Joni, Pat, Lyle, Don, and Michael covered up or prevented by Jaco's bass playing antics?

[dcr]

"The real test, I suppose, would have been sticking Jaco with a different type of act and seeing what he did."

 

That sounds like a fair test.

 

Actually, another test that's just as good has already been done. "Teen Town" isn't the only song on Heavy Weather, after all; check out what he does on "A Remark You Made," for instance. Same band & album, but he brings an approach to that tune that reveals a deeper sense of melody & soul that emerges (imho, emerges at its clearest) when all the flurries of notes are kept hidden away. It's a different kind of song from what's typically associated with him, but because of what he did on it, that song really speaks to me. (Much more than "Teen Town" does, btw.) That's a sign of real artistry, I think.

 

Of course, I say all of this never having been that great a fan. But it's not like I don't get the point.

 

I've not seen the DVD, so I can't speak to the central issue. Apologies.

[...]

To begin, I love Jaco's playing a great deal. I don't idolize him or want to be him, I do want to continue stealing musical ideas from him to expand my Grab Bag O Tricks. Jaco was obviously a mother of a player, one in a million, blah blah. This has already been stated by many people on this thread.

 

Do I think Jaco overplayed? No, not really. The Joni Mitchell stuff would be the *worst* example of him overplaying. Joni wanted Jaco to be more of a counterpoint voice to her compositions than a traditional 'hold down the bottom' bassist. Jaco was insanely good at doing just that. His sense of playing to the song was just outstanding. Yeah, he played a ton of notes sometimes, but damn, those notes were some in-the-pocket groovin notes that completely worked for the situation.

 

There are a lot of Jaco clones out there right now. Most of them have crazy chops and no sense of what's tasty to play musically. So, they wind up talkin' loud and sayin' nothin'.

 

That version of "Dry Cleaner" on Shadows & Light burns. Brecker gets a firm kick in the ass by Jaco and whips off a manic solo on top of his bassline.

[Tom Capasso]

In thinking about this, I don't feel the discussion is limited to Jaco. For me, so much of what is called "jazz" is just a bunch of guys banging away. Sure there is recognizable synergy and groove, but the entire level of the music exists with many different melodies/chords/rhythms running concurrently.

 

I am a Cactus devotee, and for those of you that haven't heard them (which is most of you), it's drums, bass, guitar, vocals/harp. There are lots of times when it sounds like everyone's soloing. Their music exists in that type of form. Many wouldn't like it, and question the high activity level of the bassist and drummer. But it works for me

 

Tom

[Dm711]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

The Joni Mitchell stuff would be the *worst* example of him overplaying. Joni wanted Jaco to be more of a counterpoint voice to her compositions than a traditional 'hold down the bottom' bassist.

Oh. Hmmmm. Thanks for bringing that point up. I didn't realize that Joni wanted him to play like that. That changes my perspective on the whole Jaco/Joni thing.

[BenLoy]

Perhaps Dry Cleaner was a bad example. There are, however, many other in that show. Black Crow, Goodbye Porkpie Hat, and Edith and the Kingpin all seem to have very busy bass parts.

 

I am curious if anybody else out there agrees with me that some of the artistry of Joni, Pat, Lyle, Don, and Michael covered up or prevented by Jaco's bass playing antics?

I don't agree. The smiles on their faces throughout most of the concert can attest to that. Jaco played busy, but it always flowed...it never stepped on people. Sure, on "Raised On Robbery" Jaco starts playing the bass and guitar parts at the same time...and Mentheny walks over to Jaco, bobbing his head in approval. Why? Because it works.

 

What confuses me is your assertation that Jaco overplays "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat." I thought he was a very sublime accompanist on that tune...

[The Bear Jew]

Yeah, I saw an interview with Joni Mitchell where she said she had been looking for a bassist who wasn't always playing roots with the kick drum, but rather someone who could play the notes "in between" the guitar and vocals. She went on to say how pleased she was when Jaco came along and did that very thing...

 

Ya know what REALLY speaks to Jaco's mastery of this? When I first got into Joni Mitchell (about 15 years ago), I barely noticed the bass playing on songs like "Coyote" because it was so well incorporated into the composition. Rather, I mainly noticed how beautiful the music was overall... And yet... the bass parts are seriously noticeable and inescapably Jaco.

 

When I heard Weather Report a bit later, I could barely believe THAT was the same bassist...

 

In any case... I'm not a huge Jaco fan (I'm not a big jazz buff in general), but I DO appreciate his work and respect his acheivements in music.

[Dm711]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

What confuses me is your assertation that Jaco overplays "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat." I thought he was a very sublime accompanist on that tune...

Could be. I will watch it again tonight. BTW, for those of you that don't have it, you should get it. Shadows and Light is available on Amazon.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally shared with us by Bumpcity:

There are a lot of Jaco clones out there right now. Most of them have crazy chops and no sense of what's tasty to play musically. So, they wind up talkin' loud and sayin' nothin'.

 

Whereas Jaco was certainly super bad!

 

This discussion reminds me that I need to purchase the Shadows & Light DVD.

[...]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Originally shared with us by Bumpcity:

There are a lot of Jaco clones out there right now. Most of them have crazy chops and no sense of what's tasty to play musically. So, they wind up talkin' loud and sayin' nothin'.

 

Whereas Jaco was certainly super bad!

 

This discussion reminds me that I need to purchase the Shadows & Light DVD.

You no longer have the "but it's $50!!" excuse either. It burns. Buy it today. Do not delay... we could meet by the bay, work with clay, to my dismay, cows eat hay, do you understand what I say? Nay. Curds and whey are not to my forte. Wanna buy a Stringray?

 

I need to just stop that right now.

[Dan South]

In the contexts where I've heard Jaco - Weather Report, Pat Metheny, solo albums - no, he did not overplay. I'm not familiar with the Joni material, so I can't comment there.

 

Jaco played in fusion groups (including his own). Fusion was a showcase for chops in most cases. Did Chick Corea overplay? Did John McLaughlin overplay? Did Jeff Beck overplay on Blow By Blow? Did Jan Hammer overplay. Did Stanley Clarke overplay? Did Jean Luc Ponty overplay? Did Al DiMeola overplay? I was a big fusion fan in the 70's, and when I put down money for an album, it was my EXPECTATION that I'd get to hear some virtuoso playing when I put it on the turntable.

 

Jaco was also an innovator. He wasn't playing jingles or backing pop stars. He put himself in a context where he could push the envelope of the electric bass lexicon. This is no different than Jimmy Haslip playing for the Yellowjackets, Gary Willis in Tribal Tech, Victor in the Flecktones, etc. I've heard Jimmy Haslip on other CD's, and he's quite contained. He matches the intensity to the gig. I suspect that Jaco adapted to the gig, also, especially when he was "coming up." Later in his life, he had other issues going on, and he may have lost his compass a bit, but that's another story.

 

Sorry that I can't adress the question directly in the context of the Joni album, but in general, no, I don't think that he overplayed any more than Jamerson overplayed. They both played interesting, imaginative lines that have inspired generations of players and listeners. How can that be a bad thing?

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

...Buy it today. Do not delay... we could meet by the bay, work with clay, to my dismay, cows eat hay, do you understand what I say? Nay. Curds and whey are not to my forte. Wanna buy a Stringray?

 

I need to just stop that right now.

Good lord, man! If I were in WA right now I'd have to give you a smart slap and loudly cry, "Snap out of it, man! Come to your senses!"

 

Or else I'd simply remind you that Papa don't take no mess...

 

[Dan South]

Originally posted by dcr:

"Teen Town" isn't the only song on Heavy Weather, after all; check out what he does on "A Remark You Made," for instance.

A Remark You Made - what a beautiful song! What a touching bass performance! Buy the CD, turn it up loud, and listen to this song tonight. It's the only bass line that I've ever heard that can literally bring tears to my eyes. I can feel the tenderness of Zawinul's composition and the pain and confusion of Jaco's troubled life along with the beauty an inspiration of his artistry and vision. It's so gripping, so moving, and Jaco doesn't play a single sixteenth note.

[...]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Originally posted by dcr:

"Teen Town" isn't the only song on Heavy Weather, after all; check out what he does on "A Remark You Made," for instance.

A Remark You Made - what a beautiful song! What a touching bass performance! Buy the CD, turn it up loud, and listen to this song tonight. It's the only bass line that I've ever heard that can literally bring tears to my eyes. I can feel the tenderness of Zawinul's composition and the pain and confusion of Jaco's troubled life along with the beauty an inspiration of his artistry and vision. It's so gripping, so moving, and Jaco doesn't play a single sixteenth note.

The live version of "A Remark You Made" from the WR album '8:30' is even better. That is one of my top 10 songs of all time. Such a beautiful song and so much emotion in the playing.

[Bassplayer58]

as he once said "It is not bragging if you can prove it"

 

but no i do not think he is an over player.

 

if you can play it why not show it. i mean if you are doing just to impress the girl in the front row that is the wrong reason. but here is an analogy:

that is like asking if a person who races nascar if they are doing it for the money, the girls, or the fame. 99.9% will say it is because of the pure adrenalin rush. or why would you go parachuting or light your self on fire on purpose(saw it on tv a few times) it is for the adrenalin rush not the money, or fame. that is probably the same reason jaco did it for the adrenalin rush.

 

i just finished reading his biography "Jaco the Extraordinary and Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius" I don't feel like looking up the exact quote but it was something like:

 

"I saw this nice looking blond out side the club before the show so i tried to get a date and she told that she was already married to the greatest bass player in the world and he was playing to night in the club. i figured he world be just some average player. but she was right he was the best bass player i ever heard."

 

I did that off of memory so it might not be exactly right but it is close

 

-dan

[getz out]

Hmm... I might get creamed for this, BUT...

 

I love the Jaco Pastorius CD. It's fantastic. It's tasteful. It's a showcase. A FANTASTIC studio album, it blew my mind the first time I listened to it. I felt SO inadequate. I wouldn't even think of trying to emulate.

 

The man was obviously a genius.

 

But, for the most part, the majority of the other work I can live without. I'm not a huge fusion fan in general (will I get killed for categorizing?), so that might have something to do with it. Some of the live recordings I've heard left me a bit disappointed, although I have not had a listen to the mentioned DVD.

 

I attribute my coldness partially due to the fact that I am a bass player. The curse of being a musician is that, in general, we have a difficult time taking in music as a whole; instead, we partially dissect it. And the thing I think I like more about the Jaco album vs. the other recordings is the dynamics he presents. There is more movement in his lines.

 

In later recordings, I agree with Dm7#11, he tends to be full-throttle the whole song through. Impressive? Yes. However, personally, I liked it better when he laid back a bit (yes, even Donna Lee), got me comfortable, and then kicked me in the cookies out of nowhere!

 

Also, Herbie Hancock is BRILLIANT in that album, which doesn't hurt. I'm not taking away from any of the other artists he worked with.

 

And by the way, I still consider his line in "(Used to be a) Cha Cha" potentially the best electric bass line of all time.

[davebrownbass]

A point I've made before, I think.

 

Jaco was brilliant...and his best work throughout his career is incredibly moving.

 

There is some uneven stuff...the Bach Chromatic Fantasy isn't as clean as I'd expect Jaco to play in full form.

 

I do like a lot of the Joni Mitchell stuff...but his work on "Mingus" sometimes seems pointless. And, although I love "Shadows and Light," there are places in it where his sonic interruptions seem rude and tasteless. Sure, he could get away with it, he was Jaco.

 

I still don't see how you can separate Jaco from his bipolar disorder. Like all manics, Jaco "acted out." Some act out with bizarre behavior (Jaco did a bit of that himself) and Jaco acted out in his playing. No great problem, really...

 

Let move you what will move you...and mourn what is left unplayed and unsaid by the "baddest bass player who ever lived."

 

We discussed this a bit in this thread.