How does the circle of fifths work?

[dohhhhh6]

I've heard a lot about this little thing called the "circle of fifths" around the forums and even a diagram, but what exactly is it and how does it work? It sounds like something that could help me out a bunch, but being the idiot newbie bassist that I am I have absolutely no clue how this so called "circle of fifths" works. Please help a musically challenged fellow out

[Addix Metzatricity]

I'll try to explain it the best I can...

 

If you start with a C Major scale (which has no sharps or flats) and you take the 5th (G), THAT scale has one more sharp.

 

So G Major has one sharp. Take the fifth of THAT, and you'll see that D Major has two sharps. Keep going that way until you've gotten all 12 scales.

 

That's the best I can do... I'm no teacher. Someone will come along shortly and completely outshine me.

[MartinJ]

I'm glad you asked this TLITPD! I have a hint as to how this is applied, and I've memorized the sequence, but it's not yet clear to me, either.

 

So, I'll hang back and wait for Jeremy, Dave, Wally, Ben, et al. to help us out.

[davebrownbass]

Had some discussion on this a few weeks ago. Gord-B was kind enough to post a diagram of the Circle of Fifths...and several people talked about how they use it.

 

Link to "Circle of Fifths/Fourths"

[MartinJ]

I'm still reading and thinking about the (thread associated with the) link that Dave Brown posted here. I'm far from understanding all that yet, but perhaps someone - possibly even me - will come up with some intelligent follow-up questions about the circle of 4ths/5ths.

[Dan South]

This has been discussed before, but I'll add a quick thought that might clear up some confusion.

 

You can use the circle of fifths in two ways, within a scale, and chromatically.

 

(1) Circle of fifths within a scale

 

Consider the C major scale (written here in two octaves):

 

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

 

Let's start with the tonic chord (built on the key note of C)

 

C E G (C major)

 

Now lets count down five notes from C (C B A G F) and build the next chord with scale tones.

 

F A C (F major)

 

Count down five notes from F (F E D C B) and build the next chord:

 

B D F (B diminished)

 

Continue the process:

 

E G B (E minor)

 

A C E (A minor)

 

D F A (D minor)

 

G B D (G major)

 

C E G (C major - back where we started)

 

We never left the key of C. No chromatic notes were used. This will work in any key, major or minor.

 

(2) Chromatic application of the circle of fifths

 

This is a more jazz-like approach, although either method can be used in various forms of music.

 

Let's start with a standard ii-V-I progression. The key doesn't matter, because we're going to use all chromatic notes by the time we've completed the circle.

 

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

 

Okay, now, let's take the middle chord of this progression (G7) and use its root as the start of a new ii-V-I progression.

 

Gm7 C7 Fmaj7

 

And let's do the same with the C7 -> Cm7.

 

Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7

 

Continue

 

Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7

 

Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7

 

Ebm7 Ab7 Dbmaj7

 

Abm7 Db7 Gbmaj7

 

C#m7 F#7 Bmaj7

 

F#m7 B7 Emaj7

 

Bm7 E7 Amaj7

 

Em7 A7 Dmaj7

 

Am7 D7 Gmaj7

 

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

 

And we're back to where we started once again. In the process, we created a m7 chord, a 7 chord, and a maj7 chord for ALL TWELVE notes. If you play this sequence of chords on a piano (or the arpeggios on bass), you'll find that it sounds very musical, even though it's not sticking to the notes of a single key.

 

A similar progression is popular in jazz and show tunes, but it doesn't use all of the twelve notes as roots. I'll start the pattern. Feel free to complete it as an exercise.

 

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

 

Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7

 

Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7

 

... complete this section on your own ...

 

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

[jeremy c]

I believe we should learn the circle of fifths in the opposite order...which makes it a circle of fourths. Dan's examples above went in that direction.

 

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G C

 

1) your bass is tuned in fourths. If you know this circle by heart, you know know all the notes crosswise on your bass. For instance if you play Bb on the 6th fret of the E string, the 6th fret of the A string is Eb, the next string is Ab and the next string is Db.

 

If you get a 6 string bass, the low string is a B and the high string is a C. You can see that above in the list of notes. A Conklin 7 string adds one more high string, it's an F, the next note on the circle.

 

You can use the circle to figure out what notes you are playing on the multi-string basses. Just start on a string where you know the note name and move across using the circle.

 

2)Chords in rock, blues and jazz tend to move in fourths. The examples in the previous post are found in thousands of jazz standards...they all move in fourths. If you are playing a song where the first chord is C, the most likely second chord is F...the next note on the circle. Same as if you play a song which starts on F#...the next chord is likely to be a B.

 

3)The circle can be used to help memorize key signatures.

The key of C has no flats

F has one

Bb has two

Eb has three

Ab has four

Db has five

Gb has six and

Cb has seven

 

now let's go around the other way

The key of C has no sharps

G has one

D has two

A hs three

E has four

B has five

F# has six

C# has seven

 

4)I'm sure there's a fourth reason.

[member 30687]

"And the music goes 'round & 'round...& it comes out here!"

[...]

I'm glad there are people like, Jeremy, Wally, DBB, etc.. that can actually explain stuff like this to people so that they can understand it.

 

I often take for granted that I just know this stuff and don't really think about it. It's just there and I use it without thinking about it. I believe I learned the circle of fifths and all the rudimentary theory when I was in 6th grade (or something like that).

 

You teacher-guys rock.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

I'm glad there are people like, Jeremy, Wally, DBB, etc.. that can actually explain stuff like this to people so that they can understand it.

 

I often take for granted that I just know this stuff and don't really think about it. It's just there and I use it without thinking about it. I believe I learned the circle of fifths and all the rudimentary theory when I was in 6th grade (or something like that).

 

You teacher-guys rock.

Agreed. I, too, learned most of the theory I know when I was younger -- from piano lessons and music classes as a kid and then bass lessons and music theory class in high school.

 

One of the benefits for me from participating in this forum is that some of the aforementioned regulars have helped me dust of some of this knowledge that was stagnant, although I'm still only very gradually starting to put some of it back into practice.

 

Thanks.

[jeremy c]

the circle of fifths

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

the circle of fifths

[Mr. Phil]

~Da Lady~

 

you'll eventually get it if you draw it a lot. Thats what my teacher had us do back in Theory I. If you can take a Theory class in High School, take it.

 

If i remember right, you're only 13?

[ian101]

I'm pretty sure video game music from the eighties used the circle of fifths a lot.

 

For example-Mario bothers 1 used the cirlce a lot only they went counterclockwise so it was more like the circle of fourths.

 

Try going around in fourths with some chromatic approach notes here and there, it sounds a lot like Mario Bros.

[ian101]

yes, another seemingly random bump

 

anyway,

 

this is something everyone should know

 

the circle of fifths or fourths is a valuable and USABLE peice of knowledge.

 

even if to only jazz chord progressions better-hint hint

[Scoot]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

How does the circle of fifths work?

I have no clue how it "works", but I know where 4th/5th are all over the fretboard, and that is all I need know.

 

Screw the "circle of 5th's" I say!

 

Just learn your scale patterns along with your notes on the fretboard and you'll be fine.

 

Okay, I admit it, perhaps I'm drunk (perhaps, hah!) Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah/Keen Kwanza to everybody out there.

[Fred TBP]

TLITPD: there is a TON of music out there using the principles of circle of 4th and 5ths. Once you learn it you'll not only know your way around the fretboard but have a heads-up to understanding song structure. The others here have done a good enough job explaining it here so I won't reiterate.

 

People are constantly amazed that I can usually (95%) learn a song within 10 minutes of hearing it. 4ths and 5ths is part of the secret. The other part is knowing how many songs use the old verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-verse-chorus structure, or a variant thereof.

 

If you're planning on mastering your instrument, and you don't have time or the interest to learn music theory, learn the circles.

[abaguer]

The circle of fifths is invaluable on clubdates where many times the only clue you get is the key signature to the song via the fingers method (flats up/sharps down). Knowing the circle of fifths also helps you to substitute changes (adding II/V's when changing key etc.)

 

someone before said if you learn the scales and notes on the fingerboard you'll probably be fine, but while this is true in a lot of simpler music, you're shortchanging yourself when the music gets harder and you have to figure out a song on the bandstand. It is an important piece of information to know.

[Dan South]

The "circle or fourths" is just the circle of fifths in reverse.

 

Every time you go up a fifth, it's equivalent to going down a fourth. Every time you go up a fourth, it's harmonically equivalent to going down a fifth.

 

Don't believe me? Start on C. Go up a fifth. What note did you play? It's G. Okay, start on C again. Go down a fourth. What note did you play? G. I rest my case.

 

Fourths and Fifths are complimentary musical intervals, as are thirds and sixths, seconds and sevenths, and octaves an unisons. Complimentary intervals add up to an octave. That means that if you play one after the other, you end up on the same note that you started on (an octave removed). Music is FULL of circular paths.

 

When we talk about the circle of fifths in music, it's typically fifths moving DOWNWARD. This is especially true of chord roots. The is a circle of fifths progression.

 

C F Bdim Em Am Dm G7 C etc.

 

Each note goes down a fifth (or up a fourth) to the next note.

 

If you go down in FOURTHS, you get a different (not wrong by any means) effect.

 

C G Dm Am Em etc.

 

This leads to something commonly referred to as the "Amen cadence" because it sounds like the "Amen" at the end of a hymn. A lot of Beatles songs are built on chord progressions that use downward fourths. I'll give a big "Amen" to the Beatles, because their songs sound great to this day. Some Beatles songs - All My Loving, for example - use the circle of fifths. It's good to be able to recognize BOTH circles, and it's easy to remember them because they are the same circle in two different directions. John and Paul used 'em both.

[Dennyf]

It's just a tool to keep track of which notes to flat/sharp in order to preserve the major scale intervals in different keys.

 

Take the key of C major: no sharps or flats.

 

The next most closely related keys would have either only one sharp, or one flat, right?

 

The only major scale with only one sharp is G. G is the fifth degree above C.

 

The only major scale with only one flat is F. While initially you may look at F as the fourth degree of the C scale, in this regard you should look at it as the fifth degree BELOW C.

 

So the circle of fifths works in both directions, in terms of adding sharps(ascending fifths,or "dominants") or flats (descending fifths, or "subdominants"). And if instead of going from octave-to-octave, you put C at the top of a circle, and write the successive dominants (i.e., fifths) around the circle in a clockwise fashion, you will have written out the progression of keys in which you add sharps. Read it in the counterclockwise direction, and you will be reading the progression of keys in which you add flats. There is some overlap, in which you have entered the inscrutable realm of "enharmonic keys," but these are not among the most common keys.

 

So anyhoo, G is the fifth (dominant) of C. The key of G has one sharp (F#). The fifth of G is D. D has two sharps (F#, C#). Etc., etc, etc,. Here's a little sentence to help you remember which notes to sharp in each key. "Father Charlie Goes Down And Ends Battle." Each word represents your next step in the circle, and the first letter of each word is the note to be sharped. E.g., the "fourth" key is A (C, G, D, A, so in terms of sharped notes it's 0, 1, 2, 3). To play an A major scale, you have to sharp F, C, and G in order to preserve the major scale intervals, i.e., play in the "key" of A. (A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A).

 

F is the subdominant of C (i.e, five degrees BELOW C). The key of F has one flat (Bb). Five degrees below F is Bb, which has two flats (Bb, Eb). The mnemonic for flats is "Battle Ends And Down Goes Charlie's Father."

 

[Mr. Phil]

wow how old is this thread!!! Thanks to Ian's reference about the Circle of Fifths being in video games (I don't know how that can be lol. Maybe its a secret level) we get to enjoy it more.

[GeorgeR]

I was talking with someone about this the other day.

 

Check out this link .

 

Bookmark it - it's a helluva good one.

[chewstermaniac]

There are some great links in this thread-THanks!!