Need help w/ stubborn, uneducated guitarist

[dohhhhh6]

Alright, I have a guitarist friend (don't we all? ) who is my best friend. He really wants to start a band, yet he refuses to let me teach him even the most basics of theory that I know.

 

He makes excuses about how "Ted Nugent taught himself and look at him," and "My brother's a good guitarist, and he doesn't know any theory." Excuses about how he's only had 4 guitar formal guitar lessons (has been playing guitar for about a year off of internet tab) so he doesn't need to know any. And excuses about how "good" guiatrists (which he believes he is) don't need to know theory because they know what sounds good.

 

In the future, him and another guitarist want to do something for a talent show that involves one of them doing the "The House Is Rockin'" intro while the other messes around doing "improv" by messing around with pentatonic scales with the root being wherever the hell he decides it to be (no relation to the progression, etc). Doesn't make too much sense to me...

 

I've tried to tell him that people like "John Frusciante," "Zakk Wydle," and even "SRV" all build their solos out of these progressions and scales, but he just makes the exucse that they've been playing forever and he hasn't.

 

The main problem is that he has no ambition to learn any theory even in the future. I fear he won't EVER get around to learning anything that'll advance his musical career.

 

So can anyone please gimme some advice on this issue. Should I keep on trying to convince him to learn some stuff? Or should I just back off and not do anything with him? Please help!

[jreed]

He sounds like me, kinda. I starting playing bass when I was 16, because of Les Claypool. After a while I learned how to slap and play fancy, but, soon realized I wasnt going to sound any good if I cant put some solid foundation on the "glitter". Now I play in a rock band and Im learning alot of just playing the basic so the overall sound it what its supposed to be.

I think im off the subject here ...

But, I dont really have good advise on helping your friend, mine just came to me as I got older and played more with other people.

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

I never learned theory and it didn't necessarily hurt me, yet it did not help either. Learning theory opens up more doors to music. If all you play is in the pentatonic scale, it will get boring after a while and you will lose interest. Zakk Wylde got the gig with Ozzy at 19 after only playing a relatively short time. He got the gig after 1 audition. He got the gig because he knew theory. Just because something sounds good does not mean it can't sound better. If all he goes for in life is adequacy, he will never be satisfied with himself, in music and in life.

 

Also, he needs to forget about the tabs from the internet. More often than not, they're wrong. He needs to figure the songs out on his own, completely disregarding tab. Learning by ear will get you further than by incorrect tab. I gave up tab after about a year and started learning by ear. That helped me learn to improvise when things start to go south and not ruin a gig. It also helped me land gigs I would have never gotten if I only relied on tab. I have been on several gigs where the charts are basic, at best and it's up to me to fill in in between the roots.

 

Basically, if he's that stubborn to work with now, he's going to be worse down the road. I'm not going to say ditch him altogether, but, if you keep harping on him about theory, he will resist even more.

[Stratasaurus]

I have no issue with a musician who doesn't know music theory. (but why o why is it always the guitar player?)

 

I do have a serious issue with musicians who refuse to get better by learning new skills. Fine its not theory. How about what other instruments can you play? How about working on your rhythm chops? How about sight reading? How about stepping out of your chosen genre and playing some country jazz. (or whatever it is that you don't play.) To me its the attitude that sux not the theory bit. If somebody offered to show me something new, anything new I'd jump at the chance.

 

To me (YMMV) there are one of two reasons for that behavior. 1) You already know everything, or everything important. 2) Your too feakin lazy to do the work.

 

So at what point in your musical life do you quit learning? NEVER.

[jreed]

If somebody offered to show me something new, anything new I'd jump at the chance.

I agree with you on that, I think most people would. People show me stuff all the time. My rhythm guitar player used to play in a local blues band, so, he will show me stuff every now and then.

[Connie Z]

Hi LadY!

 

I am lucky that at this time, I don't know any musicians like you've described your friend to be. All of the ones I know are interested in learning new stuff. (But I don't really know a whole lot of musicians, so I am sure I'll run across one here and there.)

 

The thing that strikes me as the most pertinent part of this is that as his friend, you don't want him to embarrass himself, at least that is how I am reading it. And you are right... he will embarrass himself at some point.

 

So... I suggest that you tell him that. Something like, "Since you are my best friend, I have a fear that you will be embarrassed in a musical situation. If you ever want to expand your knowledge, let me know."

 

Also, mention that he only gets one chance to make a first impression, and he may lose out on band gigs, studio gigs, etc. if he gives out those kinds of messages, because other musicians think that those kinds of lame musicians are IMMATURE! As a band member, I'd MUCH rather play with a mediocre musician who tries to improve themself, than a pretty good player with an attitude.

 

Hope that helped!

 

... connie z

[Mr. Phil]

****START SEMI-OFFTOPIC-NESS****

 

My guitarist is almost the same, but not really. And my drummer is kinda like that also. but not really.

 

Ok...my guitarist took music theory with me last year, but discontinued this year cuz the teacher hated him. So he only knows a little bit of basic theory. He is also dumb as a brick, so that doesnt help either.

 

My drummer took the same class, but dropped halfway through for the same reason. He is just stubborn cuz he writes the lyrics and so called "drum parts" and he has us pretty much base the song around that (but it kinda helps to have an idea of what the song sounds like already). But me and my guitarist have a hard time getting him to change something or play something different, or leave a part out or substitute, etc... but he's become a little less stubborn now

 

****END SEMI-OFFTOPIC-NESS****

[ibescotty]

It's always a good thing to learn new things. Sometimes though we humans are lazy creatures. Why waste time learning all that theory if I'm already halfway to a Rock Godship and I've only been playing for a few years. One thing he's going to have to realize eventually though. Guitar players of the Tab and ear ilk are a dime a dozen out there. You need something to set you apart when your finally in the right place at the right time. Maybe he's creative enough and has a unique voice. If I was a betting man though I would do everything I could to stack the odds in my favor.

[dcr]

Well, let's see. Socrates changed the intellectual world forever, & he never went to university. Heck, not even night school. Ditto Plato. Ditto Thales. Ditto Pythagoras. So I can't see any reason that I should go to university.

 

Except, of course, that I'm not a natural genius. But what difference should that make?

 

I agree with the person that you shouldn't throw rocks at someone who doesn't know theory. The guy I play with doesn't know theory, but he CAN read a chord chart & plays the right thing at the right time. He didn't stop after acquiring one or two skills. He can actually play. When your friend can ACTUALLY PLAY, maybe then we'll listen.

 

Of course, my friend also desperately wants to learn theory, because now that he can play, he realizes how much more that knowledge could do for him. But now he's got a family & a job with long hours. Maybe there's a lesson here about doing it while you're young.

 

For people who are stubborn & uneducated, & complacent in smug in their ignorance, & who actually can't produce the playing to back it up, the solution probably has to do with finding & lobbing a stubborn, uneducated brick.

 

My experience is that reasons don't change these people's minds. Hopefully he'll learn to stop being an ass.

 

Whether you want to be going along for the ride on the trainwrecks that will happen in the mean time is for you to decide.

[abaguer]

If he doesn't want to learn, then he doesn't want to learn. Hang out and jam with him in the basement or garage; then go play with musicians who are better than you so you don't end up in the same boat. I've been a professional musician for 25 years and if friends who aren't very good call me to play and hang, I play and hang because they are my friends, but when it comes time to gig and make money I go with others. Good luck to you.

[coyote]

If he can play all the stuff you want to play and make it sound good without knowing theory, then play with him.

 

If you are trying to play stuff that his lack of knowledge prevents him from playing, find a guitarist who has the knowledge and ability! Good, knowledgeable guitarists are somewhat plentiful if you know where to look.

 

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

Alright, I have a guitarist friend (don't we all? ) who is my best friend. He really wants to start a band, yet he refuses to let me teach him even the most basics of theory that I know.

 

So can anyone please gimme some advice on this issue. Should I keep on trying to convince him to learn some stuff? Or should I just back off and not do anything with him? Please help!

[Afro_Man]

Originally posted by ibescotty:

If I was a betting man though I would do everything I could to stack the odds in my favor.

Isn't that called cheating anyway i think you should try and get him to be less of an ass, just say "if you're so good now, learning theory should be easy cos you already know it, what with you being so great and all" or you could be really childish and say "i know something you don't know"

"what?"

"theory"

just kinda tell him that it'll improve his playing style no end and since he'll be a better guitarist he get more girls (which is probably why he took up the guitar in the first place)

[Superdad]

You never know what you will learn until you look into a subject. I don't play music, but joined the forum to help figure out how to get the right stuff for my kids, who are learning. I took out a book on music theory, and what I read helped me get a new approach to a problem in transportation risk assessment (using post-processing of a discrete model to gain realism in modeling a continuous variable). You never know how you might use the knowledge until you acquire it. I never met anyone who lost skills by learning.

 

The real issue then is a human factors issue. How do you motivate the individual to modify his behavior? You seem to have three main options:

 

-persuade him, using logic;

-motivate him, using positive reinforcement; or

-motivate him, using negative reinforcement.

 

These three are not mutually exclusive. The lines in this forum provide a more than dequte basis for persuasion. Positive reinforcement might be promising to do something he wants if he does what you want. Negative reinforcement might be threatening to end your musical association if he does not cooperate.

[jeremy c]

I am fortunate to be able to play with trained, knowledgeable musicians.

 

We don't have rehearsals. Someone (usually me) writes a chart and we sight read it on stage.

Or else we each get a copy of the song we are learning and we learn it on our own and then we play it on stage.

 

Sometimes we have substitute players in the band. I can just turn to the guitarist and tell him a chord name from time to time and that's all I need to do.

 

There is one player I play with who does not know theory. He doesn't even know the names of the notes. He is a trumpet player. However, if you play the first note of the song for him, he then can play absolutely anything perfectly the first time, in any key. He plays gorgeous solos over any chord changes imaginable.

 

I had one student that I didn't worry about theory much with. He was able to listen to any record ONCE and then play back all the bass lines note for note.

 

If your friend has that kind of ear and talent, then he doesn't need to learn anything.

 

Otherwise, it can't hurt.

 

Twenty five years ago, I stopped playing music with my best friend because I was frustrated with his musical development. I didn't tell him that was why I wasn't playing with him anymore....I just moved on to other bands and was always busy if he asked me to be in another band with him. We are still best friends and I play with some pretty good players all the time.

[dohhhhh6]

Well, I'm just more-or-less concerned with what happens in a band setting. He's a perfectly able guitarist, but his lack of theory limits him a lot. I can't even properly communicate stuff like "play a E pentatonic scale over this E chord." It just gets frustrating quickly. He doesn't even really understand that you can change the root of a major scale to get the different major scales.

 

Now, I've jumped at many oppurtunities to teach him stuff, but I never get anywhere because he throws the, "I just want to play and have fun. I don't want to learn any of that useless stuff," type responses.

 

It's also frustrating how all he wants to learn is how to play some licks and riffs, which is fine for awhile, until you get to the point where you're not learning anything new. You're just playing notes someone else put together that sound good, it just really doesn't do you any good at this point.

 

This whole thing has nothing to do with gigs or money, it's all about the jams, so I'm not going to say "**** you, you musically illiterate *******." I feel that I'm going to have to nudge him with more subtlety to learn some theory, and just wait until his desire for something "more" grows. In the mean time, I'm not going to even consider joining any but a coverband with him.

 

Thanks for all the useful replies. You guys are always so so helpful.

[dcr]

Well, if it's fun to play with this guy/these guys, then keep doing it. But it sounds like you're heading in totally different directions. You all need to learn a lot, but you're the only one who gets that & wants to learn. So it's really in your interests to make sure you also play with people who know more than you do, or are at least serious about learning. You'll move forward with them. There's no moving anywhere with this guy.

[Jezza]

Your guitarist needs to realize that without at least some theory he lacks the vocabulary to express himself in a language other musicians will understand, like, there are 7 diatonic modes in each key so saying "it's in E" just doesn't cut it.

 

but if all of your well meaning advice fails,

 

load up shotgun cartridges with rock salt and peppercorns and blast him with a few.

 

cos' it's the only way he'll end up a "seasoned" musician.

 

Guitar playing - a medium neither rare nor well done.

[Mr. Phil]

Originally posted by Jezza:

there are 7 diatonic modes in each key so saying "it's in E" just doesn't cut it.

Jezza, how times do you play in E Locrian? or Phrygian? The only ones you relaly need to know are Ionian(duh)and the others that aren't Locrian or Phrygian. ok nevermind that post. Im stupid. *Shut up phil...*

[prophetgtree]

I learned theory right away. I had a strong foundation of theory before I ever picked up the bass. What this allowed me to do is approach each song from a different stand point and write better bass lines that were not just whole note roots all the time. I agree that theory helps!

[henryrobinett]

I personally feel that theory, while maybe not everything, is highly significant and the backbone to music, whether you realize you know anything about theory or not. It forms the backbone of my playing anyway.

 

But if your guitarist doesn't know it or value it I'd say stop trying to beat a dead horse. Either enjoy playing with him for what he's worth or move on. Preferably keep playing with him anb find some other folks who also play the way you want to as well. Maybe try getting the two together so he can see the usefulness of knowing how to play with theory behind you. That might inspire him. Otherwise just enjoy. Lose the stress. FWIW.

[The Guy]

If your friend has that kind of ear and talent, then he doesn't need to learn anything.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

So true, but the likely hood of this is very slim. I can play a lot by ear, and can pretty much figure out the basic chording of almost anything in the rock arena within two listens. Unfortunately, half of my talent comes because I know basic theory/fretboard techniques, and play piano, which helps my approach to note selection incredibly. If I didn't know basic theory, I would suck, totally.

 

In the end, if he's not willing to improve, I would not play with him. If he's not open to suggestions and corrective criticism, then what happens when you get into songwriting and such? It's going to such completely, that's what. You'll have to play crappy stuff because that's within his grasp of knowledge and ability, and his word will be law. All in all, he sounds like a rather pissy person, and you should tell him to change his attitude or go elswhere. If he doesn't want to improve, then most likely he's only playing music for kicks.

[schmee]

i'm confident that you're putting as heavy an emphasis on rythmical foundation as you are chord theory, because as a bass player you understand that rythmical accuracy is often just as - if not more - important than the concerns of modal variation.

 

i mean, considering so many of the world's most diverse and entertaining genres are defined by little more than a combination of pentatonic scales, i can understand your concern over his inability to be interested only in western scale theory, as opposed to rythmic awareness and execution.

 

i have a roommate for example, former french horn player currently learning guitar, whose penchant for overall understanding of chordal theory being a requirement before he is willing to commit himself to any kind of recorded performance has rendered himself unable to record anything for over a year now.

 

"let go Luke!"

 

[NickT]

I know a number of musicians who are scared by theory (most of them guitar players), some of them really have talent, but are limited in what they play.

 

The way that I have approached this question with them is this.

 

Take two carpenters who are equally talented. One has a couple of very basic tools. He may be able to make a chair, but the chances are it will be a bit wobbley and won't be a chair that you choose to sit in for years and years to come.

 

The other carpenter has a much larger set of tools and knows how to use them. Chances are he is going to make a sturdier and more comfortable chair than the other guy.

 

Theory is part of a musicians tool kit. As a tool for communicating between musicians, it is very important, but it also has another use. My teacher once told me that there were no wrong notes, only poor choices. Theory is a way of eliminating alot of really bad choices. If you start removing a load of options then your need to rely on happy accidents is vastly diminished.

 

Frankly I don't want to have to rely on accidents to be able to express myself. I'd rather take control of what my music says.

[SmittyG]

This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. You just annoy the pig and waste your time."

 

I had two years of school band and then read every book I could get my hands on. I still do. I am very well versed in theory. Rarely do I find a guitarist (regardless of skill or talent) who is as studied in theory as I. Even rarer is finding the guitarist who doesn't know theory and is interested in having me teach them.

 

If you try to force it down your friend's throat, you will be seen as a know-it-all or a theory-snob. He knows you have the information; he knows you are willing to share that information. You can do nothing more until he comes to you for help.

 

During your jamming, you might suggest some things without giving the full lecture or theory behind it. While jamming with one guitarist, who could wail on a minor pentatonic scale but had no clue to what it was called much less any other theory, I suggested that we get a little weird and he should play that pattern in E while I jammed out a progression in D. He loved it; he said it sounded "Spanish". Whenever he wants to sound "Spanish", he does the same trick. He still has no clue of the why behind this sound; he still doesn't care.

 

--SmittyG

[Idnarb]

Refuse to play with him and then let him sink and burn on his own

[mattski_dup1]

I think a big move that you could make would be to find a guitarist who does know theory, and have a jam session with him AND your friend at the same time. Perhaps seeing what one can do by knowing even basic theory will give him the desire to learn more. That's how most of my friends ave started learning theory. When I first got serious about guitar, I began studying theory. After only a year, I was able to begin writing my own chord melodies of Jazz Standards (melodym rythm, and bass at the same time), and all of my friends who didn't want to do the work involved in learning would ask me to teach them how to do it. My answer? "Let's begin with how chords relate to the major scale..." Little by little, I was able to teach my friends theory and (my god!) they had fun with it! Now they are better players, and much more fun to play with because we are closer to being on the same page. Good Luck.