2 x 10" - Carvin or SWR?

[bc_dup1]

After taking delivery of my SWR Grand Prix preamp and QSC 1602 I'd hoped I could carry on using the Ashdown Mini 48 Cab but having heard the set up it's not going to work. The B string and even the lower notes on the E are badly thinned out.

 

I'm thinking about probably a couple of 2 x 10"s. I can't afford really high end at the moment and, given the restrictions of what's available in the UK I'm thinking either the Carvin RL210T or the SWR Goliath Junior. The SWR's will retail at around £420, the Carvins at £310. Are the SWRs worth the extra?

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by bc:

After taking delivery of my SWR Grand Prix preamp and QSC 1602 I'd hoped I could carry on using the Ashdown Mini 48 Cab but having heard the set up it's not going to work. The B string and even the lower notes on the E are badly thinned out.

I don't think a conventional 2x10" is going to add a significant amount of bottom - you'd probably be better off with a 1x15". Soundslive has an ex-demo ABM Mini 15 for £299:

 

http://www.soundslive.co.uk/common/moreinfo.asp?ID=1452

 

One of the guys over at talkbass, Wulf, who gigs in London uses one of these as his sole cab and loves it.

 

Alex

[_Sweet Willie_]

bc,

 

I'm confused. I thought you also have an Ashdown Mini 15 (like Alex suggested you get).

 

If so, you should get reasonable low B and E sounds from both cabs together, and probably some nice sound from the 1x15 alone.

 

I like SWR cabs, and have a Super Redhead combo which is sort of like a redface SWR 350 and a Goliath Jr. in one unit. I have not played any Carvin cabs. I have played one of the combos, and didn't like it much. However, that may have more to do w/ the amp in the combo than the speaker (a 1x15).

 

Another thought would be to look at some 1x12 cabs.

 

Peace.

[bc_dup1]

Alex I thought about the Mini 15. There are a couple of downsides:

 

1 I'd like to have the flexibility of taking just one cab to some gigs. I've concluded the Mini 48 just isn't a stand alone cab. I like tight definition so I'm not sure a solo 15 would be my bag either.

 

2 This may be irrational to some extent, but I'm a bit anti-Ashdown at the moment. I did quite a lot of background research before acquiring the rig and I'm selling it pretty quickly at a big loss. I feel neither the combo or the extension cab lived up to the hype.

 

I haven't dismissed the idea of adding a mini 15 altogether, but I'm tending towards the idea of 2 2 x 10s. I didn't have any problems with lack of bottom when I had the Hartke 4 x 10".

 

Incidentally Sound Control are offering the Mini 15 at £319. Twenty quid less for an ex-demo doesn't sound a great deal.

[bc_dup1]

Willie, I didn't see your post before I sent mine. What I have is a combo (1 x 10") which I'll be selling, and a Mini 48 which I'd hoped to keep.

[SteveC]

bc,

 

I have (will on Friday) the same preamp and power amp as you. I love SWR stuff. I used my Bass 350 with my Goliath 4X10 for a jazz band gig with my Carvin 6 string fretless. It sounded fantastic. I can only imagine it with the QSC powering the Grand Prix.

 

I have been kicking around the idea of getting Acme 2X10's and doing a "take one for small and two for big gig" kind of thing. After yesturday, I think I am going to keep the SWR and just use it for all my gigs. It also sounded great last week when I played with my 9 piece funk/horn band.

 

I used an SWR 2X10 for a while, so did a friend of mine. I also tried the Super Redhead. It is great, except it "farts out" on the B string. I 'd suggest you look into a 4X10 instead of two 2X10's. I know the 4X10 is big (but not too big) and heavy, but it has wheels and sounds great.

 

It might be a bit of overkill for smaller gigs, but it sounds great even at lower volumes.

[bc_dup1]

Steve,

 

It was back problems (rather than sound problems) that made me get rid of my 4 x 10" originally. After several weeks of being practically incapable of movement I had to concede that, macho pride notwithstanding, it was just irresponsible to carry on lifting the 4 x 10" on my own. Cue looking for help from other musicians at every gig/rehearsal, a major inconvenience and guaranteed to make you feel you're being a pain in the a$$.

 

I've now spent a small fortune finding a more portable replacement without, so far, getting a sound as good as my no-frills Hartke 350 and 4 x 10". But unfortunately, going back to a 4 x 10" isn't an option.

 

Is there a technical reason why 2 2 x 10"s wouldn't sound as good as 1 4 x 10", especially from a bottom end point of view?

[bassplayer5217]

so u have the 1x15 ashdown but want something else to use with the grand prix and gsc whatever?

 

i like the swr goliath jr a lot in that case. carvin sells mainly five strings, so i doubt their amps couldnt handle a good low B, etc.

 

up to u, and remember resale.

 

swrs sell a lot higher priced used than carvins, so the origina purchase price might not matter other than cash at hand

 

peaceOUT

 

- germain

[SteveC]

I don't know the tech specs on the differences between two 2X10's and one 4X10. Also didn't realize the back issue, sorry.

 

I guess, right now anyway, for me I'd rather make one trip with my 4X10 instead of two trips for the 2X10's.

 

You may want to look at Acme's Low B-2 cab. I was this close (imagine me making the sign with my thumb and finger) to getting two of them. I still might. I am just going to wait and see how my 4X10 sounds with the QSC pushing it first.

 

Let us know what you decide to do.

[bc_dup1]

Steve

 

Unfortunately Acme are just one on a list of high-end US manufacturers whose products are either unavailable or hard to find and ultra-expensive in the UK. Most of the high-end 1 x 12"s favoured around the forum are in the same category.

[bassplayer5217]

nevermind, i tought 48 was 1x15, but is 4x8, oops

[bc_dup1]

That's right bassplayer. My recent rig bought with portability in mind was the Ashdown C110 (325 watt 1 x 10" combo + 4 x 8" extension cab). It just wasn't loud enough in some situations so I've bought the SWR pre-amp and QSC 1602 power amp. The Mini 48 is rated 600 watts so I thought I might get by with it but I now have volume but not the sound.

[Jeff Addicott]

SWR worth the extra money? Check out these links and decide for yourself.

 

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data/Carvin/RL410T_Bass_Cab-01.html

 

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data/SWR/Goliath_III-01.html

 

Note these are for the 4x10s, but you should get the idea...

 

2 2x10s is cool, but you might also consider 2x10 + 1x15, leaving the latter home except for the big jobs.

 

Good luck!

[bassplayer5217]

i like 2 x 10 and 1 x 15 a whole heap!

 

Musiciansfriend.com SWR 4004 full stack

 

4 x 10 and 1 x 15!

 

there is also 2 x 10 plus 1 x 15 version

 

swr 4004 2 x 10 and 1 x 15

 

it is only 100 bucks for the extra 2 x 10 in the former, so unless ur back is hurtin, i'd opt for the 4 x 10 plus 1 x 15, but ur call

 

p.s. my friends call me Germain, i snickered being calle bassplayer, a little cheezy, don't cha think?

 

peaceOUT,

 

Germain

[Dave da Dude]

Two cents here. From my audio (home hi-fidelity) experience, 12's are a nice speaker.

 

They don't seem to be very popular with bass nowadays, but I saw that Avatar has a 2 x 12 Cabinet (that I was looking at, burrp ) that has an option of Eminence Kappa or Delta for "... puchy mid bass ... or low bass ..." respectively. They're tuned for 50 Hz, or E, $319 USD, I think (about 200 GBP? plus shipping).

 

To play the B, you'd need to get down to 31 Hz and spend some serious money I would think (unless you do have a 1 x 15, I've lost track).

 

Just my two pence, Dave

[music-man]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think the Eden 210XLT kicks serious butt by comparison to the SWR 210s I've played.

 

As 210s go, I give my Eden serious props (although I have considered upgrading my amp for the headroom need for an Acme).

 

If I were doing it over again, and "bottom" was my main concern, I'd definitely consider the Berg 112 though ...

 

(All this from a guy who still loves his Goliath II).

[bassplayer5217]

Midi notes correspond to what we play on the bass:

 

Frequency Table

[73 P Bass]

I play in a rock trio, like a very punchy sound, and I spent a lot of time listening to different 2 x 10's before I bought a Goliath III Jr. The only cab I thought was in the same league was an Epifani. I used to use this in combination with a combo amp that had a 2 x 10 to have a more defined sound at greater volumes and it worked great.

[earljam]

Check out a canadian company at www.yorkville.com. I'm using their 2x10 and 1x15 and so far they sound great and appear to be very well made.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

They're tuned for 50 Hz, or E, $319 USD, I think (about 200 GBP? plus shipping).

 

To play the B, you'd need to get down to 31 Hz...

there's some truth in there, but in practical terms you've got it way off. firstly, the fundamental of the low E string is around 41Hz. this means a cabinet tuned to 50Hz won't reproduce that fundamental particularly well.

 

the silver lining of that cloud, however, is that on electric bass, you hear a lot more of the second harmonic (double the fundamental frequency) than you do of the fundamental. so when you pluck that lowB string, you're really hearing its octave more than you're hearing the low B. that octave is at 62Hz -- well above the 50Hz tuning of the cabinet in question.

 

so while you're not hearing the fundamental of the low B (or the low E for that matter), you do hear what you're used to hearing when you play, which is actually the second harmonic.

 

in other words, i would be confident that a cabinet tuned to 50Hz would sound like what i'm used to hearing and would not have many issues in handling a low B. i think many players would be surprised how few cabinets actually get response down to 40Hz, let alone 31Hz.

 

robb.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by bc:

Is there a technical reason why 2 2 x 10"s wouldn't sound as good as 1 4 x 10", especially from a bottom end point of view?

If they're tuned to the same frequency, have identical drivers and the same cabinet volume per driver then they should sound almost identical. They also have the advantage of being stackable vertically for more focus and projection or horizontally for more thump. The big downside is that two 2x10"s cost a fair bit more than one 4x10".

 

You can get Eden, EA, Epifani and Bergantino in the UK, but you're looking at about £600 minimum for one of their cabs. What sort of sound are you looking for - do you want crystal clear highs and deep lows or do you want midrangey growl and adequate bottom, or somewhere in-between?

 

Alex

[bc_dup1]

Thanks to all who've replied. I've gone for the SWR Goliath Junior. I'll try that in tandem with the Mini 48 and if it doesn't give me a sound I like I'll go for another 2 by 10 or possibly the Son of Bertha and get rid of the Mini 48.

 

The big downside is that two 2x10"s cost a fair bit more than one 4x10".

Agreed but that's the price of a bad back and I've had time to get used to it.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by bc:

[QB]Thanks to all who've replied. I've gone for the SWR Goliath Junior. I'll try that in tandem with the Mini 48 and if it doesn't give me a sound I like I'll go for possibly the Son of Bertha and get rid of the Mini 48.

[QB]

I can imagine a Goliath Jr sounding very nice with the Son of Bertha - and a SoB should cost less than your Mini 48 is worth. Personally I prefer the SWR sound to the Ashdown one - better highs and more clarity, less of that Trace Elliot-like midrange hotness (which punches through the mix but doesn't sound too great).

 

Alex

[bc_dup1]

As for the kind of sound I'm looking for, I'm a convert-from-guitar with relatively little experience of bass gear. I've probably thought less about sound than I need to. I know when I hear a bass sound that I like but would struggle to describe exactly what its characteristics are. I need to experiment and play about a lot more with this.

 

Having said that, I'm not a particularly big rock fan. It's not that I don't like a lot of rock, but you can't listen to everything and nowadays there are other styles of music that interest me more. When I hear a bass sound that really grabs my attention it tends to be on an r'n'b, funk or hip-hop record. Bassists I've discussed this with have suggested I'm looking for more of a hi-fi sound.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by bc:

I know when I hear a bass sound that I like...

Any players/albums stand out in particular?

 

Alex

[bc_dup1]

Alex there's a lot.

 

I do like a lot of retro sounds, including rock stuff - McCartney with The Beatles, for example. Love Bernard Edward's sound, or Verdine White's.

I'm a big fan of Jamerson's playing, but I don't get hugely excited about his sound.

 

Earlier this week I was transcribing the (Bootsy Collins?) part in Grace Jones's "Slave to the Rhythm" for a band I'm involved with. Totally love that sound.

 

But the sound that really blows me away - and being a Brit you may understand my reference to Jools - almost every time you see a hip-hop or modern r'n'b act on Jools Holland there's some guy just getting a monster sound - whether it's Mary J Blige, Macy Gray, Jill Scott, Angie Stone, D'Angelo, The Roots, whatever, there are certain similarities, they all know how to get that sound I like. How to describe it I don't really know, but it's very tightly defined without sacrificing lots of bottom end, almost a "shiny" sound, but any trills or whatever played on the upper strings come through with lots of definition and punch.

 

I was at the North Sea Jazz festival recently and the best bass sounds I heard were from The Roots, King Crimson and John Zorn's band. Zorn's bassist was using SWR which is kind of encouraging in view of my recent purchases!

[the stranger]

I really don't think (2) 2X10's is going to sound the same as a 4X10, due to the difference is cabinets.

 

I use a Carvin 4X10 and it's does a great job on bass, guitar, and whatever else I've run through it.

 

Carvin makes great cabinets. I wouldn't hesitate to go with Carvin.

[SteveC]

It's always fun (I think - I know others here hate the endorsement thing) to see pro guys using your gear. I believe Stefan Lessard uses SWR Grand Prix Pre Amps. According to the web site, he uses 4 - one for each bass.

 

I also know Jimmy Haslip (Yellowjackets) uses SWR amps and cabs - very similar to what I use. Now if only I could play like him.

 

Enjoy the Goliath Jr. - it's a great cab. I think it would be doubly great with a Son of Bertha 15" under it.

[bc_dup1]

Yeah, Steve, I don't know if Trevor Dunn (who was the bassist with Zorn) would even have had control of what bass gear was supplied, I just loved that band (Electric Masada with Marc Ribot on guitar) and was struck by how great the bass sounded and noticed it was SWR.

 

Incidentally, Alex, in saying

it's very tightly defined without sacrificing lots of bottom end

I'm guilty of sloppy expression - what I mean't to say was without sacrificing any bottom end, ie the sound is very tightly defined while still having lots of bottom end.

[orphan wells]

to save yourself from having to carry 2 cabs (2x10 and 1x15) just get a 2x12 w/horn if you can find one available. Eden and Epifani make great 2x12 cabs and I'm sure there are others out there. A 2x12 is the closest thing you can get to the range of a 2x10 1x15 rig.