Bi Amping - anyone do it? Is it worth it?

[SteveC]

I was reminising with the guys the other day and we realized that we had all had a bi-amped rig at one time or another. Mine sounded pretty nice, too. I don't remember why I changed, but I guess I change often.

 

Anyway, does anyone still do this?

 

Is it worth the extra hassle?

[Mr. Phil]

My Carvin R600 head has a Biamp feature, along with a full range mode. Honestly, I have no idea what it does, other than it has a crossover frequency knob that makes my sound slightly different. I like it better in full range.

Hopefully other people know what this is.

[Hepnurecords]

I used to biamp back when. GK 800 into a Trace 15 and a Harke 2 X 10. I loved the sound. Beautiful grunt bellow with all the honk and sizzzle left intact.

 

But, it really depends on what you're looking for and what your set up with the front end PA is.

 

What's the point of hauling around the extra gear if the audience hears the DI and only you hear that lovely biamped rig. If they'll mic and mix it well. Well, that's different.

 

Not even 2 cents. Call it 0.154.

 

D.

[Wally Malone]

Long ago bi-amped my GK800RB. After doing it for a short time went back to full-range. Got more out of the 410 cab full-range than by bi-amping. Found it better sending 300 watts than 100 watts to that cab.

 

Wally

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by phil6006:

My Carvin R600 head has a Biamp feature, along with a full range mode. Honestly, I have no idea what it does, other than it has a crossover frequency knob that makes my sound slightly different. I like it better in full range.

Hopefully other people know what this is.

I wouldn't mess with that bi-amp knob...keep it turned off...unless you use it exactly like the manual says...with 2 seperate cabs.

 

A true Bi amp divides your signal into 2 paths, amplifies them seperately and feeds to seperate speaker cabs. The advantage is that you don't ask a big heavy speaker to reproduce high partials, and you don't ask tweeters to reproduce long wavelengths. More efficient use of amp and speakers...

 

Now I don't know the setup in your amp specifically, but if BiAmp is active, half of your signal is going somewhere I don't know. The Crossover frequency is where you are subtracting the tone.

 

I suspect you're not hurting anything...but you are losing a lot of your signal....you have to compensate by turning up.

 

If ya want a thrill, get an additional speaker and hook it up according to Carvin recommendations. Check that BiAmp thing, you'll love it.

 

I personally don't biamp...however when I go through the house, the system itself does that for the entire sound scape. In fact, most big rock PA's are Tri-amped.

 

In the older days, the big speaker was the main speaker, and the high end was split off and reinforced seperately. Nowadays, I think more people are splitting off the low and biamp to a subwoofer, keeping the main signal in the high end.

[Metal_Boy16]

A Bi-amp system utilizes specific speakers to their full potential. On my head, the crossover can be set from 200 to 2khz. This means all frequencies below the set number are sent to the "low amp" speaker. All other frequencies go to "high amp". Bi=two; My Carvin R1000 head has two amps (2 ohm min. each amp). You can control the power of each amp. I hook up my "low amp" to the my 1x18 cab and my "high amp" into my 4x10" + tweeter. If I want to 'turn off' my 1x18", I turn the "low amp" knob to 0, and vice versa. It's pretty awesome. It gives me a lot of control! Oh yeh, and my Carvin head can also bridge the amps...1000 watts into 4 ohms!

[Mr. Phil]

I understand that much clearer now!!! Thanks.

 

YAY FOR CARVIN AMPS!!

[sigudo]

i'll tell you... i have bi-amped my rig and i would never go back... you can get a huge full but still tight and crisp sound... kind like a steam-shovel hitting bedrock... you can feel it and hear it.. a tastfully under-stated chorus slipped in between the two sides can give you a monster presence... without being loud... let the guitarists be the ones being asked to turn down.. team it up with an aural exciter and you could get a $5000 sound by with only spending $1000... if money matters???

[SteveC]

Our big PA rig is tri amped, but lately we have been playing gigs where we just use a small head and a couple speakers on sticks fo rvocals. My bass rig IS the bass for these gigs. The new band will probably be the same.

 

While I get good sound from my 4X10 and Bass 350, I am wondering if I would get even better with a bi amped set up. I think my bass rig (even though I'd like to go straight DI) will be it in the future.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by SteveC:

While I get good sound from my 4X10 and Bass 350, I am wondering if I would get even better with a bi amped set up.

Modern bass cabs, particularly ones like the SWR Goliath 4x10s (but even many smaller cabs like 1x12s or 2x10s), sound really good full range. Even if you put a 1x18 underneath, you'd be robbing that 4x10 of some of its value by not letting it run full range. However, if you're setting the crossover low enough for a true subwoofer, you might add some quality to your sound.

 

That said, if you want to use a biamped rig, one possibility might be to overlap the freq ranges of the cabs. That is, let the 4x10 (for example) get everything from 50 Hz and up (to take advantage of its ability to carry full-range sound) and let the sub, a 1x15 or 1x18 (for example), get lows and mids. This might take a little experimentation to get the balance right. I think the EBS preamps have crossovers that allow you to overlap the frequencies like that.

 

Your current rig probably sounds excellent and can do the job you need as is. If you can, it might be fun to borrow some gear and do some experimenting w/ biamping to see how you like it. IMHO there's something to be said, however, for simplicity in a rig!

[_Sweet Willie_]

Right now I'm a fan of 3- and 4-way cabs, like those from Acme and AccuGroove.

 

There was an earlier related thread that I thought might be useful here:

 

Thread about multi-way cabs, crossovers, and biamping

 

Peace.

[speddling]

I loved my 4x12 EV loaded / 1x18 biamped rig... killer tone!

 

I just refuse to hump that around only to have the sound guys make me kill it to a whisper so I don't stomp on the 'front of house' mix.

 

200 watt 1x12 combo and a DI suit me now

[SteveC]

Thanks for the link. Good info. I A/B'ed my 4X10 with a Triad (15" 10" horn) last night. I liked the 4X10 better - at least for the current funk/horn band gig.

 

The thing is, we are getting a 4 piece together to do a more broad range of stuff. Sting, Seal, Ben Folds Five, James Tayor, Barnaked Ladies, etc. I am also hoping to get in a "modern jazz" combo as well.

 

I guess I am wanting a little more bottom rumble, you know that you can really feel, as opposed to the tight punch I am getting/using for the current repertoire of Tower of Power, etc. But I still want the definition. Thats where I thought a bi amped rig might be the ticket.

 

When we do a gig where we use a PA, I can just take the top or bottom for my on stage monitoring needs. But as I said, it seems that many future gigs will involve a PA for vocals only and my rig will be the FOH - so to speak.

 

Keep the opinons coming.

[Jeff Addicott]

If I was ever going to bi-amp, it would be with an appropriately tiny "highs" cab and preferrably a lower-wattage amp channel. If I'm going to be hoisting up some 60lb 2x10 and carting around some amp with hundreds of watts per side, I might as well put it all to work! Know what I'm saying?

 

One cool example of bi-amping is the Mackie powered speakers. Those things are compact and super easy to use, and they sound great! If someone made a product like that for bass, I'd be all over it!

[bassaddik]

i used to bi amp just because it was available- but my preent rig is my best sounding ever and its not biamped- i aways found myself going back to full range.. dunno why.

[tnb]

I use to bi-amp with GK800RB into a Peavey 1820 cabinet (loaded with JBLs) and the sound was really nice, but it was a pain to carry all of that heavy gear around. Now my crossovers are built into the cabinet (Acme) not the amp and my sound is even better. Most of the time my rig weighs less than 60lbs.

[The Fonz]

back in the dzzay when i did live sound, everything was crossed over. we ran our board through a 3-way crossover and split the highs, lows and mids through their own eqs and before assigning them to amps and speaker banks. the result? the voice of god.

 

what happens when you bi-amp is you assign your highs and lows to dedicated speakers. your small speakers get to push high end without having to work too hard to move big air for low end. your big speakers get to push low end without having to vibrate fast enough to push high end and break up. you have two amps pushing all this so they get to work half as hard to move all the air you're thinking about. the result is clearer tone and much more headroom.

 

the downside? to do it properly requires lots and lots of gear. if your have a GAS problem you may not see this as a downside, but for those of us who lack the funds to purchase and/or the willingness to lug all that extra gear it can suck. however if i could pull it off i would sure as shit run my svp through a crossover and seperate equalizers and amps pushing dedicated cabs. the sound just kicks ass.

[_Sweet Willie_]

I'm probably somewhat of a minimalist when it comes to amplification. The simpler the set-up, the happier I am. I also don't want to lug a lot of stuff. A powerful, compact head or 3U rack w/ lightweight power amp and 1U preamp on top and a single, full-sounding cab would really keep me happy.

 

Remember, Steve, there's a reason you returned to that SWR 350 and 4x10 after experimenting w/ some different set-ups...

 

That said, I wonder what an Acme B1 on top of an Acme B2W w/ a nice crossover would be like...and it wouldn't be too heavy, small stage footprint...

[rumpelstiltskin.]

now that's a nummy sounding, lightweight rig!

 

i have been wondering how good an HT112 with an EX112 for sub-100Hz signals would sound, myself. perhaps the acme bi-setup would be a much better approach.

 

robb.

[SteveC]

Well, here's an update if anyone cares. I have my SWR Grand Prix preamp. Sounds great.

 

I found an amp designed for bi amp use. Its a QSC PL 1.5. Channel 1 is for the low cab and puts out 450 watts @ 8 ohm. Channel 2 for the high cab puts out 200 watts @8 ohms.

 

Thinking about a dbx crossover with my 4X10 acting as the high cab and getting a 1X15 for the low cab.

 

I could also use the 4X10 on Channel 1 for gigs where I just want to bring one full range type cab.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Sounds great.

 

However, my unwanted two cents is: you're wasting some of the potential of that nice Goliath 4x10 when you don't run it full range.

 

Also, check out the Rane DC24 crossover. It's got a couple of other cool features like separate compression for each channel.

 

I'm too lazy to take the 3 seconds to pull up the link to the Rane DC24 page on their website...

[SteveC]

SW,

 

I realize I am wasting some potential, but I want to keep the 4X10 to use as a stand alone if I need it. Just too good a cab to not have around.

[Jeff Addicott]

That's cool you have a power amp that actually is designed for bi-amp. I don't see them very often, but they totally make sense for that application!

 

That Acme B1 on top of a B2W setup... now THAT sounds like a happening setup for biamp!! I'd probably get the B2W in 4 ohms and the B1 in 8.

[SteveC]

The Acme B-1 for the top (1X10, 1X5, horn with mid and horn attenuators) and B-2W (2X10) for lows sounds interesting. But it seems so small. Easy to haul around though and a great option if it would be enough.

 

Everyone says Andy at Acme is great to answer questions, so I sent him a detailed email and asked if his cabs would do the trick for a bi amped bass rig. We'll see what he has to say.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Sweet Willie:

Right now I'm a fan of 3- and 4-way cabs, like those from Acme and AccuGroove.

 

Just to reiterate, in light of Steve's thread about Acme, I am probably a bigger fan of well-designed multi-way cabs that can be run full-range than bi-amping -- which often involves extra gear (i.e., a crossover) or more specific gear (i.e., an amp or preamp w/ crossover capability).

 

Continue to enjoy the hunt, Steve!

 

Peace.

[music-man]

My 2 cents (late to the discussion, so this may be useless to you SteveC) ...

 

My experience with biamping (yet another 800RB user here) suggests to me that it's a great idea that makes SO much sense in theory, but is currently not very feasible, given the available gear.

 

The GK amps make a lot of sense (i.e. 300W + 50W or 300/100, etc.), because the proportions of power output seems about right for bass sounds. But I rarely see anyone running these in biamp mode, unless they're using GK cabs and wiring the tweeters separately.

 

Others may weigh in with better advice, but as I see it, the problem is matching power between cabinets and amplifiers. I used a 410 with the 100W amp on my 800RB, and found it to be a real waste of space (AND it clipped out when I cranked up). Even if you get a fat stereo head, I think you're still facing the same problem since, to avoid piercing everyone's eyeballs, you're probably going to run the top at a relatively low level, while cranking up the bottom end. Which means you're needlessly carting around a Goliath III (90 lbs) and underpowering it besides.

 

Perhaps the thing to do is to use your "high" amp to push something like a 80W cab with small speakers, like a 2x8+tweeter (perhaps a guitar cabinet) or a 1x10+tweeter. Your rig might look a little funny, but it would SOUND righteous and weigh a lot less than two full-size bass cabs.

 

[Now that I think about it, I seem to remember that about 10 years back, Trace Elliott made a small, flat cabinet - with like four 5" speakers in a line - to handle biamped highs. Hmmm ... anyone else remember these?]

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by music-man:

Perhaps the thing to do is to use your "high" amp to push something like a 80W cab with small speakers, like a 2x8+tweeter (perhaps a guitar cabinet) or a 1x10+tweeter. Your rig might look a little funny, but it would SOUND righteous and weigh a lot less than two full-size bass cabs.

 

[Now that I think about it, I seem to remember that about 10 years back, Trace Elliott made a small, flat cabinet - with like four 5" speakers in a line - to handle biamped highs. Hmmm ... anyone else remember these?]

I don't remember that Trace cab, but it sounds muy righteous for high-end bi-amping.

 

I know some players who bi-amp using a 1x12 w/ tweeter for the top and a 1x18 for the bottom. Both players I know who do it, have felt really good about the quality of their sound. One uses two Genz-Benz cabs, and the other uses an Epifani 12 on top of a Bag End 1x18 (w/ ELF processor). Both have found that their 1x12 cabs are super for smaller gigs on their own, and adding the 1x18 for larger gigs really fills out the sound.

 

A small cab on top of a big cab, music-man, makes too much sense!

[SteveC]

Another update and end of this topic.

 

Thank you to all who have put in your 2 cents worth. I have received a ton of good input on this topic. I started the Acme users topic as I have come to the conclusion that there really is no need to bi amp.

 

The Acme topic addresses the use of 3 way cabs. It seems that this may be the way to go. Crossover bulit in and separate attenuators for the mids and highs.

 

Thanks for you opinions eveyone.