Advice on fake books for jazz standards?

Travis Harms · July 15, 2003

Every one I know recommends the Real Book, but of course it is illegal and hard to find. I was thinking of getting the New Real Book Volumes 1-3, as my teacher recommended this series as a start to my collection if I can't find the Real Book. I have had experience with using volume 1 and it seems to have quite a few of the commonly played standards. My teacher recommended Lemur Music to order them from, but I am open to other suggestions of places that sell music books.

... · July 15, 2003

I don't know where Morro Bay, California is... but I would guess that you're somewhere near a college? Seems like everywhere in CA is near a college of some sort. Your best bet would be to go to a college and talk to some of the jazz cats in the music department; they will know how to get a copy of The Real Book. Although it's not perfect, it's one of the best fake books out there for jazz. When I was at the University of Washington, every year the "fake book guy" would show up for a day or two and sell them in the music department. You just have to ask around a bit and you'll find a way to get them. I recall paying $40 for mine.

SoundWrangler · July 15, 2003

None of them are stellar, but identifying & correcting errors in your copy can be a musically productive exercise anyway!

Among licensed fakebooks:

"The Ultimate Jazz Fakebook" (Hal Leonard): I'd give this one a solid "B" rating. Has lyrics (always a plus, & a significant shortcoming of the classic photocopied "Real Book"). You'll still have to fix a few chords, & put parentheses around some fussy passing chords that somebody shoehorned in, but overall the song selection is pretty good, songs are in common keys, & they get it right. (Although speaking of keys, these seem to work best for male voices; & indeed if you go listen to Ella versions --always worthwhile!-- you will find they're in some other key.) I've got quite a few fakebooks, & IMHO this is one of the better values for the $. Availability in C, Bb & Eb versions (like the New Real Book) is also a big plus.

"The New Real Book": Pretty good; maybe a B minus. Again, lyrics are there, which really helps memorize songs (not to mention work with vocalists!). There are a lot of questionable selections, though - post-fusion stuff by, say, the Yellowjackets that are hardly "standards" & seem odd choices for a fakebook. (The dopey standard-notation --with no harmonics-- transcription of "Portrait of Tracy" is a comical example -- picture yourself calling THAT one out to a horn section. "OK, guys - 1,2,3 ... GO!".) But there's maybe 70% actually usable stuff in there (as interesting as it may be to see a chord chart & bass line for "River People") -- which is actually pretty good as fakebooks go.

"The Just Standards New Real Book": Just picked this one up a couple weeks ago. The big attraction was that well-known Intros for some standards are included (very uncommon for fakebooks), for example "Have you met miss jones" (think Satchmo), "I've got a crush on you", & other intros that people like Ella made so famous. Nicely printed & legible, but lots of errors in this one, though, let's give it a C+. Chords get over-simplified occasionally --missing bits & pieces that absolutely EVERYBODY plays-- & (like the others above) occasionally sloppy (or intentional?) mistakes somewhere in the melody. I've spent some time making corrections in my copy (many pulled over from the previously-mentioned Hal Leonard book, which gets things about 90% right).

"The Musicians Fakebook": C or C minus. Has a number of standards missing from the others, plus a few Motown and R&B tunes that may come in handy.

Definitely get hold of a "classic" Real Book too, though - for all its faults (wrong passing chords, no lyrics, no intros, minor but glaring errors in melodies, etc.) it's still an important artifact of jazzbo culture - a common denominator espec. among those associated with college jazz & GIT/BIT type schools. The >$30 price tag for licensed books above may seem steep, but considering that you'll play out of these for YEARS, it's a great investment.

davebrownbass · July 15, 2003

Use to be a guy selling the original "Real Book" online. I can't seem to find it now. I wouldn't be surprised if it got shut down.

Even though the NEW Real Book is more authentic and has better calligraphy, the original Real Book is essential! Most of the players have jazz tunes memorized...they pride themselves on that. Most of those memorized to charts out of the original Real Book. So if you whip out a New Real Book, the changes are often different, the keys are different and everybody has to read.

At jam sessions, I generally carry Real Book I & II and New Real Book I & II...and still get dirty looks if I don't happen to have a tune from Real Book III! Our pianist has a copy machine, and he goes to run a copy!

In my search, I found a really interesting site...somebody has taken the original Real Book and put the changes online. They have even gone to the trouble of allowing you to select the key you want the changes transposed to! I didn't do a real thorough check, but it looks to be most of the contents of the original Real Book. Melodies are not there, but it might be useful. Here\'s the site.

MattC · July 15, 2003

i hate to be the stereotypical Ebay pusher, but that's where to go. There are usually about a dozen or so listings; just search for "real book" under sheet music.

DBB, I have yet to work through any music given on that site, but it looks very good. Kudos for that link! Just one question before I find out for myself: On any particular song's progressions, the "change key" function starts in a different key. Would that happen to be the original key?

jeremy c · July 15, 2003

The New Real Book is a great book.

I use it all the time, mostly volumes 1 and 2.

The Standards Real Book by Chuck Sher is also a good book.

I can't think of any bad books put out by Sher Publications.

And Lemur Music is a great store, isn't it in San Luis Obispo? That's not too far from you.

I wouldn't worry that much about the original Real Book, there's something wrong with almost every song in it.

bassric · July 15, 2003

One guy in my band downloaded the Real Book from Kazaa.

Mark Zeger · July 15, 2003

Originally posted by bassric:
One guy in my band downloaded the Real Book from Kazaa.

There's something very ironic about downloading a book that violates publishing rights from a website that violates publishing rights.

Travis Harms · July 15, 2003

Originally posted by matt C:
i hate to be the stereotypical Ebay pusher, but that's where to go. There are usually about a dozen or so listings; just search for "real book" under sheet music.

Thanks for the great idea, I didn't even think of that. When I went on Ebay I found dozens of them.

Phil-E-Phil · July 16, 2003

Originally posted by matt C:

DBB, I have yet to work through any music given on that site, but it looks very good. Kudos for that link! Just one question before I find out for myself: On any particular song's progressions, the "change key" function starts in a different key. Would that happen to be the original key?

On that page, the default key is supposed to the original or typical key of the song. If you have any more questions about the site, feel free to ask, I created it.

bassaddik · July 16, 2003

there is also a Latin Real Book, they are great- i carry a bag with like 4 of them- my original Real Book is in Bass Clef, so i can jump in with the melodies as well and incorporate them into my stellar ( ahem..) solos..

and now i hear there's a copy of ALL of them in PDF format on a cdr floating around somewhere- my laptop would be the ULTIMATE REAL BOOK!!!! i gotta find that-

jeremy c · July 16, 2003

Phil, I just looked at the site. Good job!

But what is going on with Here's That Rainy Day?

It says standard key F, but the Roman numerals seem to make the song in G. What's up with that?

(I checked this song first because it's one of the most incorrect tunes in the original real book.) (I also checked Desifinado, thanks for restoring the missing four bars!)

Adrian, one of my weird idiosyncrancies is..I can't seem to deal with the real book in bass clef.

Somehow my brain is divided up and I can read basslines in bass clef with no problem but I need to see melodies in treble clef.

At one of my first rehearsals with Wally, I screwed up a tune big time....and actually rewrote it in treble clef so I could read it. And Wally thought he was doing me a favor by writing it in bass clef!

I'm actually a believer in studying out of the treble clef book for the following reason: When you get to a gig and someone gives you a page to read, it's probably the same lead sheet that everyone in the band gets, i.e., treble clef.

ClarkW · July 16, 2003

Originally posted by jeremyc:
Somehow my brain is divided up and I can read basslines in bass clef with no problem but I need to see melodies in treble clef.

I'm actually a believer in studying out of the treble clef book for the following reason: When you get to a gig and someone gives you a page to read, it's probably the same lead sheet that everyone in the band gets, i.e., treble clef.

Well I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who prefers their melodies written in treble clef and their bass lines in bass clef! And I wholeheartedly agree on the second account; use the bass clef book all you like for your own enjoyment, but make sure you can cut it just as well with a treble lead sheet.

Phil-E-Phil · July 16, 2003

Originally posted by jeremyc:
Phil, I just looked at the site. Good job!

But what is going on with Here's That Rainy Day?
It says standard key F, but the Roman numerals seem to make the song in G. What's up with that?

Hey, this thing is still a work in progress.

I just spent a couple of months reworking the interface and correcting some transposing bugs. The next thing is to go through all the charts and correct little problems such as the one you described.

jeremy c · July 16, 2003

here you go, Phil.

Here's That Rainy Day

/I Maj7 /bIII Ma7 /bVI Ma7 /bII Ma7 /

/ii m7 /V 7 /I Ma7 /v m7 I 7/

/iv m7 /bVII 7 /bIII Ma7 /bVI Ma7 /

/ii m7 /V 7 /I Ma7 /ii m7 V 7/

/I Maj7 /bIII Ma7 /bVI Ma7 /bII Ma7 /

/ii m7 /V 7 /I Ma7 /v m7 I 7/

/IV Ma7 /ii m7 V7 /iii m7 / VI7 /

/ii m7 /V 7 /I Ma7 /(ii m7 V 7)/

bassaddik · July 16, 2003

i can get by on treble clef- left over from my tenor sax dys mny moons ago, but i realy prefer the bass clef-

every now and then i get a chart that has some lins writtent to double other instruments and they re written in treble clef- and that's ok, but man, reading the melodies in bas clef and practicing with trombone books, etc has really helped out-

now this is my idiosyncracy -- melodies are much harder fro me to read because the flow so as opposed the bass lines which tend to continue simile or just seems more graphic to me for some reason-

davebrownbass · July 16, 2003

I also prefer melodies in treble clef...

And I think it has to do with either: piano study as a child or reading full scores while in school or conducting or years of solfeggio or the psychological association of melody and treble clef.

I also alluded to the many problems with the original Real Book. It would be nice for Phil to make corrections...and I like the idea of changing the text color to show the new changes.

Jeremy, have you run into the problem of older jazz soloists having the incorrect charts memorized? Probably not...I seem to get in a lot of reading sessions for fun with guys in their sixties. I did play with a pretty hot Saxophone in his 20s this spring...and he had worked diligently learning the original Real Book. I guess nobody warned him!

I haven't memorized nothin! That's why I don't advertise myself as a jazzer...more of a jazz hobbiest...but I can do sub work more or less convincingly.

And please, Phil. Use the New Real Book version of Autumn Leaves! By the way...do you fear any ASCAP reprisals for your site?

Lawnmower8 · July 16, 2003

How 'bout this, for a Jazz "newbie" (read: listens to some, owns some, and wants to learn how to play more of it on bass)...

Any recommendations for books to get to help with jazz listening, sight-reading, chart-deciphering, etc., at the "beginner/intermediate" level?

Been playing rock and prog for 15+ years, but haven't read music since playing Sax in high school....

Richard Johnston · July 16, 2003

Long live standards!

Fake books are fine, but remember the best players (a) know hundreds of tunes and (b) use their ears to fake new tunes and follow variations on tunes they already know.

To get these skills you have to sit down with your radio, CDs, MP3s, internet radio--whatever--and play along with tunes on the fly. It's just like learning to sight-read--you have to play straight through without stopping.

Spend an hour a day doing this and you'll eventually find yourself impressing your bandmates with your tune knowledge and "big ears," and getting more gigs because folks know you don't have to hunt through a book when someone calls "Peggy's Blue Skylight." (Though on that one you might want to help yourself by checking out the keyboard player's left hand.) You'll also find you can listen to a tune and know where it's going even without your bass.

Note on copyrights: Books by Sher, Hal Leonard, and other big publishers acquire (or own) licenses to reprint the music they publish, so those books aren't illegal like the old-style fake books. No-pay downloading of such a book violates the book publisher's and song publisher's copyright. Downloading an illegal book violates the song publisher's copyright, just as the book's publisher has.

Richard Johnston

jeremy c · July 16, 2003

As far as I know (and correct me if I am wrong), you can print out the chord changes without printing the melody and not infringe on the copyright.

After all many songs have the same chord changes, it is the melody that makes them different.

I run into people all the time who are playing the wrong changes because they are reading from a fake book, or learned the tune from a fake book.

Once I was actually on a gig where a drummer in his 60's got into a fight with a keyboard player in his 20's.

drummer:"Why did you play that? That's not the way the song goes?"

keyboard:"But that's exactly what is written in the real book!"

drummer:"You idiot, did you ever listen to the song? Dizzy Gillespie never played it that way!"

And then the drummer punched the keyboard player!

When I taught my jazz combo class, we used various fake books. I then would teach the students the "real changes"and warn them that if they ever play these songs with people to be ready for either the correct changes or the changes in the book.

What the real changes are for any standard is actually debatable. After all many of these songs were originally show tunes. The jazz players of the 40's and 50's reharmonzied the songs to make them hipper and more solo friendly. And of course whether you put in an extra II-V or substitution chord or alteration on a V chord depends on what is happening musically right at the moment. Should you put that in the chart or not? Chuck Sher and his buddies spent a lot of time wrestling with these issues, which is why his books are so much better than anyone else's.

One of the things that has been happening with one group of players that I play with is actually fun, challenging, interesting and sad all at the same time.

There is me, a great guitarist, and a flutist who doubles on keyboards and has terrible charts. The guitarist and I look at the charts, look at each other and reharmonize them on the fly. When the other guy is soloing on flute, everything is fine. When he switches to keyboards, it gets interesting. We can see the chart, we know where he is going to play "the wrong chord", so then a decision has to be made as to what we will play to make everything work out. Remember that this is all happening in real time. We have never had a rehearsal and we will never have one. I find this part of the gig enjoyable and once in a while I remember what happened and make a correction in the leader's book.

tnb · July 16, 2003

Originally posted by jeremyc:

When I taught my jazz combo class, we used various fake books. I then would teach the students the "real changes"and warn them that if they ever play these songs with people to be ready for either the correct changes or the changes in the book.

I have been 3 weeks into a show before realizing that some of the songs I have been playing are standards that I have played a million times - especially Frank Loesser or Cole Porter tunes. The changes are different, the forms are different, whole sections have been added or taken away, tempos, meter, key signatures, long intros, the lyrics...it's nuts. Between this and some bad m*****f***** (Miles or Prez or Trane) coming along with "the" definitive version. Then you have local or regional versions of popular tunes. You have to learn to hear.

Jeremyc's story about the altercation between the drummer and the piano player happens frequently. It happened to me about 10 or 12 years ago. Only I told the piano player to kiss my ass. I was dead wrong and I owe the piano player a BIG apology. Of course he had the last laugh because bad news like that travels fast. By time I got home that night gigs had already started cancelling. Made for a difficult next few months, but no more than I deserved.

Richard Johnston · July 17, 2003

Jeremy:

You make a lot of great points. For many tunes there are indeed several "right" versions of the changes. And then there are those creative piano players and guitarists who do their own cool reharmonizations on the fly. Not to mention those not-so-creative ones who have learned dorky, bad changes and will never, ever alter them.

We all used to assume that chord changes/bass lines were not copyrightable, but that seems to be changing, with at least one court siding with a publisher on the issue. Stay tuned on that one.

Richard Johnston

... · July 17, 2003

Originally posted by Richard Johnston:
Not to mention those not-so-creative ones who have learned dorky, bad changes and will never, ever alter them.

That's usually when I just start vamping in F lydian...

prophetgtree · July 31, 2003

Hey, I was just looking for the real book and need some more info in getting my hands on it. I asked my band director where I could get one, and he said to check out www.jwpepper.com for the real book. When I did a search for "The Real Book" the top selection was "The ALl Jazz Real Book." I was wondering if anyone is able to give me some info on if that's what I'm looking for, or anywhere else to search?

-Will- · July 31, 2003

Sorry, I'm new to the forum and the bass community, but I have to ask the question. Why is "The Real Book" illegal?

ClarkW · July 31, 2003

Prophetgtree: Your best bet really is ebay. Just search for "real book" and it will pull up enough listings.

Will-Bass: If you've purchased sheet music of your favorite band or musician from the store, you'll notice that it often says "Authorized Transcription" on it somewhere. What that means is that the artist, or more specifically the owner of the copyright of the intellectual property involved, authorized that transcription to be made, and more importantly (for them anyway) is receiving royalties from the sale of that transcription.

It's kind of like if I stood at Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous "I Have a Dream" speech with a tape recorder, then typed it all out and started selling it. The speech was the creation of King, so I have no business making money off it in any form without his consent and compensating him.

The Real Books are basically transcriptions that were created and compiled by a bunch of different people, and the problem is that they don't pay any royalties to the artists. Technically, if they were only ever used for personal or educational use, there wouldn't be a problem. But since people use the Real Book (and other unauthorized Fake Books) to perform the songs and get paid for them, they are "illegal."

I'm also not entirely clear about the difference between just playing a song onstage, and recording it on an album for sale, when and where you have to pay royalties. But since there isn't an ASCAP representative hanging out in every bar, club, lounge, concert hall, festival, and house party in the world, for the most part any small-time royalties are going to go unpaid.

-Will- · July 31, 2003

That's what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks.

Dan South · July 31, 2003

How do Roman numerals suggest a specific key? The number system is supposed to by key independent, n'est-ce pas?

jeremy c · August 1, 2003

Highly technical post ahead, feel free to page down.

Dan, your question is about "how do roman numerals specify a key" and is about my post to Phil about his online jazz changes.

Roman numerals do not specify a key. That is clear, and I don't want to cause any confusion.

However, in the transcription I was looking at, the key was specified as F. Then it was written in Roman numerals and it said the first chord was a II Ma7 chord and the last chord was a II Ma7 chord. And the song was written ending III m7 VI 7 II Ma7. That looks like a II V I transposed up a step, which makes the song in G not F.

In this particular online fakebook, key changes are not given, which makes the modulations that most jazz tunes have look sort of weird.

So for instance a song might be written in chords:

/CMa7 /Dm7 /G7 /CMa7 /

/Gm7 /C7 /FMa7 /FMa7 /

/Fm7 /Bb7 /EbMa7 /EbMa7 /

/Dm7 /G7 /CMa 7 /CMa7 /

We all know (or should know) that we have I II V I in C,

followed by II V I in F

followed by II V I in Eb

followed by II V I in C.

But if you write it all in Roman numerals staying in the key of C, it will look like this:

/I /II /V /I /

/Vm7 /I7 /IVMa7 /IVMa7 /

/IVm7 /bVII7 / bIIIMa7 /bIIIMa7 /

/II /V /I /I /

That looks really strange to me, but can certainly be figured out. I hope no one thinks like that, though.

Years ago, Bass Player had a transcription of "Pretty Woman" done by David Hungate where he wrote it out in a Nashville number chart. (And we all know how similar the Nashville numbers are to the Roman numerals.) I always meant to write him and ask if he really thought the tune that way.

Pretty Woman is in A major and starts with a V chord riff (on E7) and then goes to the typical rock changes of I VI IV V. Then the bridge modulates to C major and goes II V I VI II V I in C before modulating back to A.

The chart that Hungate wrote had the Dm G7 C written as IVm bVII7 bIIIMaj. (in A) and this makes so little sense to me that I hope that other people are not thinking this way.

Even if I wanted to write the whole thing in numbers so I could transpose it, I still would probably say "IVm becomes II of new key", although I will admit that makes it harder to sight read.

How do others of you write or think Roman numerals when the key is changing?

In my first example, I would probably think, "I II V I, II V I of the IV chord, II V I of bIII, II V I."

_Sweet Willie_ · August 1, 2003

Originally posted by jeremyc:

So for instance a song might be written in chords:
/CMa7 /Dm7 /G7 /CMa7 /
/Gm7 /C7 /FMa7 /FMa7 /
/Fm7 /Bb7 /EbMa7 /EbMa7 /
/Dm7 /G7 /CMa 7 /CMa7 /

We all know (or should know) that we have I II V I in C,
followed by II V I in F
followed by II V I in Eb
followed by II V I in C.

But if you write it all in Roman numerals staying in the key of C, it will look like this:
/I /II /V /I /
/Vm7 /I7 /IVMa7 /IVMa7 /
/IVm7 /bVII7 / bIIIMa7 /bIIIMa7 /
/II /V /I /I /

That looks really strange to me, but can certainly be figured out. I hope no one thinks like that, though.

My high school bass teacher taught me to interpret those changes as you presented first -- ii-V-I's in different keys.

The second set looks strange to me, too. Thanks, though, for laying it out like that. Makes one stop and think, doesn't it?

Advice on fake books for jazz standards?

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