small combo + PA

[dcr]

I said in another thread that I'd like to try putting less power (& speaker area) on stage, but let the PA carry the bass, & use the amp for on-stage monitoring for me & the drummer.

 

Well, I did that this weekend, & it worked well; the drummer especially liked having more defined bass to work with, instead of a low thud. I could also hear myself better. And the sound man was happy with the ability to mix me in. So it seems to work.

 

The rig there doesn't belong to me--it's an SWR 4004 w/ 4x10 & 1x15. (I put the 1x15 on the floor & angled it up.) My own rig is an Ampeg head + 1x15--a big, heavy cab. I'm thinking that maybe the thing to do is to sell/trade that, & get a smaller, lighter amp to use as a monitor & run a line out to the board. I like the Ampeg, & it's hard for me to downsize like that... (I've already scaled down from a Peavey rack + fridge rig! Good move!)

 

So two questions:

 

1. Does this sound like a good idea? This is praise/worship music in a not-so-big hall, about 100 people tops.

 

2. What would be a good amp? I'm considering an SWR WM10, WM15, or Ampeg BA115. (The WM10 is attractive, since I know a lot of people here swear by it; it's only 31 lbs; & pretty inexpensive. I also like the "modern" SWR sound. But no tilt.) There's also the GK Backline series, & Carvin PB series. Thoughts/recommendations? I'd like to stay under $500, which is about what I think my current rig would cover. I'd also like something with a pretty "focused" output--I want the speaker to place the sound where I aim it, as much as possible, rather than spread it all over the place.

 

Thanks!

[getz out]

Like I've said before, get your hands on an Eden Nemesis NC-210P. They are being made new again, or you can try to find one used. Perfect for nearly any gigging situation. Light, LOUD, and consistent, with a great frequency response.

 

http://www.eden-electronics.com/NC210P.html

 

The only reason I still have my "big rig" (Demeter VTBP-201S -> Stewart World 2.1 -> Two Acme Low B-2 cabinets) is because I can afford it and it sounds FABULOUS. In the venues I play (or lately, played, since I can't land a consistent gig), the PA carries the bass, and my amp is for monitoring only. It's more important for me to have a great bass than a great amp. I luckily have both, but would sell the amp over the bass in a blink.

 

I've always liked SWR WM combos, though I've never owned one or used one other than in the studio or at the local store.

 

Good luck.

[davebrownbass]

In my experience, everytime I've tried to use my amp as a monitor, the monitor mix overpowered it.

 

Of course, I use a GK MBE 150...which would give you that light weight and focused sound you crave.

 

This is the problem...an amp much bigger than that in a small sanctuary would quickly get louder than the mains...beyond the sound man's control

 

On the other hand, I played an outdoor gig on July 4...opening for some SRV tribute band (good players!) Bass player used a Hartke with 2 4x10 stacks, I used a GK with a 1x12. Out front, our sound was identical! Go figure! lol.

 

In your situation, The Eden would be ideal. Great sound, great DI with a line level volume control and ground lift. Phenomenal eq, with a great contour knob (my favorite!) A problem is that the sound from the Eden in not directional...the sound radiates almost equally. Makes it difficult to function as a spot monitor facing right at you.

 

But every church should have an Eden Nemesis...the perfect church amp for so many reasons.

[dcr]

Dave, are you saying this doesn't sound viable?

 

Sorry to be so thick!

[davebrownbass]

Sorry, I was obtuse.

 

I haven't had a situation where any of my amps were a suitable substitute for monitors, if the mains were powered up. The GK is pretty focused, but small. The Nemesis has a lot of spread, although it's good in many other ways (especially live sound.)

 

The guy with the big rig stood in front ofit all night long, but none of their cut-offs were together.

 

In my church gig, we changed sanctuarys and I used the GK as a performance amp. It wasn't adequate at all...but the house only had voice speakers in it. I could hear well then...with only the high end coming through house.

 

About 6 weeks ago, they installed the upgrade, with a pair of sub-woofers and other speakers. Now, they tell me, the house sounds great. I can't hear my GK's output at all...the sub is right behind me...so all I hear are these massive lows...unless he puts me through the monitor I share with guitar.

 

So I guess I'm saying, based on my limited experience, that using bass amps as stage monitors don't work...primarily because they disperse the sound radially. Wedge monitors are focused to put the sound right at your ear, and don't leak sound anywhere else.

 

Other people can correct me here...my experience is not vast.

[dcr]

Hmm, interesting. Here, maybe the overall "lo-fi" nature of my situation could work to my advantage. I.e. there's not a lot else on stage to compete with; on my side of the stage is the drummer & guitarist, & I can hear over them; on the other side is mainly acoustic instruments (winds, piano). I don't have a lot of monitors around edging my sound out. And it seemed to work, in *that* situation, when I used it today.

 

(Then again, I've been pushing for stage monitors; heck, maybe then I could have them give me a wedge, & just go totally direct! But that would be a *long* way off.)

[groovyjazzyfunky]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

But every church should have an Eden Nemesis...the perfect church amp for so many reasons.

I believe I recall my pastor once preaching an entire sermon on the "Eden Nemesis."

[PhilMan99]

If you're only playing for 100 people or so, it doesn't seem like you would need too much of an amp. I play at Church for larger crowds, but only compete with acoustic guitars and vocals (and congregation). I won't comment on the specifics of the amp, since you don't seem to like the "deep mud" sound I go for (no distortion, though!), but a couple of thoughts:

 

* In my case, everyone else goes through the PA, so if I don't, it's real hard to get a good balance.

 

* Although I go through the PA, I still like having my own amp, since the PA speakers are tiny (not good for bass response).

 

* I had a lot of trouble with "ground-loops", since I split between amp & PA using a DigiTech "stomp-box" (compressor) with 1/4" unbalanced outputs to both PA and amp. In my case, an EbTech "Hum Eliminator" solved the problem. Naturally, real XLR balanced outputs would be better...

[Tom Capasso]

dcr, the first thing I noticed was that your "previous" rig was an Ampeg with 15" cab - is that right? If so, it's no wonder that your drummer heard you more clearly with that 4x10. If the rig was close to him, the Ampeg setup may not have worked to your (or his) advantage.

 

Consider Ashdown as well as the other recommendations here.

 

Tom

[music-man]

dcr -

 

I use my WM10 as often as I can, depending on the quality of the PA. A few things to keep in mind:

1. Your sound on stage will not be the impressive butt-shaking barrage you are used to. AND for louder gigs there are definitely times when I've felt like I was playing "blind" - i.e. playing the notes and hearing a minimal sound, but definitely not anywhere near in balance with the drums/guitars.

2. The single 10 in the WM10 just doesn't crank out the lows.

3. There are a lot of rooms where your amp will need to round out the sound of the PA. Particularly in places where the mains are elevated, I find that the bass sound is not as tight out front. Throw in the variable of the less-skilled sound person, or a talented person who has an off-night, and you may find yourself frustrated ...

 

So frankly, as hardy as the little WM10 is, I wouldn't have it as my only rig. There are just too many venues where you will need more. [Not sure whether this is the plan, but it kinda looked like it from your post].

 

Your price point will limit you somewhat - there are louder and cleaner combos for around $500. But I think if I were in your shoes, I'd suggest at least a 210. So I'd seriously consider an Acme 210 ... plus getting a gig bag for your Ampeg (assuming it isn't the all-tube head). The Ampeg will likely have plenty of headroom to push the 210, and the Acme is lightweight, etc.

 

FWIW, as good as it sounds, my Eden 210 is not much of an improvement in weight/size ...

[Bass Burp]

O.k., so they're probably telling you to turn the bass down right? Every church I've been in they say the same thing. Lots of times churches have these 15" combos. I say stick with 10's whether its 2x10's or 4x10's...let the house carry the low end. I like to slap in church, on certain songs, so clearity plays an important part in that live situation.

I have 500 watts and 4x10's of David Eden stuff. The power is there when I switch to slap, the 1x10 combo just doesn't cut it. Now it all depends on the overall stage volume. If everything else is controlled volume wise then maybe it might do.

For me, it's about working with the house sound man, they are usually inexperienced technicians, most are not musicians, and they always, always turn the volume down on the bass track rather than adusting the frequency range.

also, keep your rig at least 6' away from you, tilt it if you must.

[JD_dup2]

I use my GK 400RB into an Eden 1x12 coaxial cab in our sanctuary. I DI out to the house (pre EQ). The Eden is located between the drummer and me and I let the FOH tell me in our sound check how loud to make it. With the bass amp level set, he is able to fill out the bass with the FOH and the subs to fit the music and the crowd. I had to move to the other side of the drummer, away from one of the subs, to hear myself clearly through the Eden. If you are standing next to a subwoofer, move well away from it or you may have significant phase problems between the subwoofer and the bass cab and much of your frequency response could be lost.

 

I previously used an SWR WM15 combo (now used pretty much for outdoor gigs). The 15" speaker was louder and much harder to integrate with the FOH. The 12" speaker on the Eden will play the fundamental but has enough punch to hear it up close. A single 10 just doesn't give me the thump my ear wants to hear.

[dcr]

Thanks for all the replies! Keep 'em coming! Sounds easy as pie, & not too expensive (e.g. about $100 for a Nady 12).

 

Would it work to run the bass into an effects unit (e.g. BP-8), then into a plain DI box (1/4" to XLR) to the board?

 

Thoughts?

[dcr]

[shameless bump]

[Ryan Griffith]

I've never had a problem with my combo (Ampeg B-100R) as long as there was a PA at the show. In many instances I was run through the house whether I asked to be or not. At this stage I don't really see the point in getting an expensive head + cabs; I don't really need them. I've played small/medium sized clubs with just the amp, some with the amp through the house, and a few outdoor festivals where I was run through the PA. At those I actually didn't even need my amp, although since I brought it, I decided to use it.

 

Obviously those who have more demanding gigging schedules & have more professional experience may see the real need for a larger amp system, but I personally don't.

 

~Griff

[dcr]

Ryan--gotta agree about that B-100R! At least, I tried one in a store, & couldn't believe the sound coming out of that wee little box--what a whallop! And it doesn't hurt that it's dead sexxaayy.

 

Our situations also sound pretty similar. Hmm.

[Ryan Griffith]

dcr,

The B-100R is a great little amp. It's got plenty of bark for its 100W, and the tone leaves little to be desired. I've had mine for about 4 years now and I can't really complain about it. There have been a couple jam sessions where I was wiped out by multiple guitarists with loud stacks, but if people would exercize some reasonable judgement with volume that wouldn't be an issue. The 1/4" line out jack the amp has is the clincher, too... dial in your tone & run out to a DI box. I've done it dozens of times & it works out great.

[humabass]

Get a new or used Eden monitor wedge and place it wherever is best for you. You can use your existing head.