Playing without a drummer

[humabass]

I used to play in two different acoustic trios backing a lead singer/guitarist. My natural inclination was that since there is no drummer I am the "rhythm section". ALL MUST FOLLOW ME! Of course I feel this way out of a sense of duty,obligation,and a sense of the fitness of things,not from an egotistical perspective. One group it worked well. In the other group the second guitarist used to tell me to follow the rhythm of the lead singer/guitarist. She was a great singer and above average guitarist but played somewhat out of time. I suggested that perhaps she should follow me but...well we just couldn't reach an understanding and he would complain that "something didn't feel right". Kind of a quandry. You wouldn't tell a drummer to "follow the singer/guitarists tempo" would you? Anybody have any similiar experiences? Maybe in these acoustic trio situations the bass isn't supposed to be the rhythmic anchor and there is a different rhythmic dynamic happening. Thoughts?

[PETE_COMBS]

Break away from the rythm section of the band and lead in ceartian area's with the bass.

[Connie Z]

Hi Humabass!

 

I have no idea if this is correct or not, but in our band, when we have no drummer, we all follow the rhythm guitar player, for two reasons:

 

1. She has excellent rhythm

2. Since she strums almost constantly, it is easy to watch the motion of her hand to see what is happening rhytmically. I've tried sometimes to follow the keyboard player, but I often can't hear him well enough to know exactly where he is. But visually, I can see the rhythm player, even if I can't hear her at all.

 

Right now our band consists of: lead guitar, rhythm guitar, keyboard and of course... bass! (We will add a free-lance drummer as needed.)

 

It works out well for us, but mainly because she has such good rhythm.

 

Hope that helped. ... Connie Z

[Adamixoye]

I have played in P&W bands without drummers. In that situation, I think it's appropriate to assert control as the only rhythm instrument. Fortunately, I've never had to "assert" myself in a sense that involves conflict.

 

You can try to explain that you ARE the drums, too. With some exception, the bass is naturally more percussive than guitar, piano, etc.

 

I found that all this playing without a drummer made me a better bass player, and now that I have a drummer in the P&W band I'm currently in, it's soooo nice, and I'm better with him...but I know I could live without.

[jeremy c]

If you are playing with a guitarist with poor time and you are supposed to follow them, you follow them. If you don't like doing that, you quit the group and play with someone else.

 

In the absence of drums (and even in the presence of drums) the bass is a rhythm section instrument and even though the guitarist may establish the tempo, it's the bass player's job to enforce the tempo.

 

Good Luck!

 

Life is too short for bad time.

[bassric]

I have a similar experience. In fact I wanted to start a thread on this after my last band practice.

 

I play with a sax player and a guitar player. Those guys are neighbors and through time,I think we have become good friends. We try to play jazz.

Although I am not an excellent bassist ( after two years of practice, I still cannot improvise a decent jazz solo), but I know that my time is OK.

 

But the others... For example, when the sax player tries to mark the beat with his foot, or to clap hands in rhythm, not one of his beats are equal. It is scary. (I showed him the post about counting thebeats while walking) But somehow he can follow the rhythm of a song while he plays his sax, although he tends to add or miss a beat from time to time. And in general, he can follow me. When we play only the two of us, it goes really well, and it is more musical than when we play with the guitar player. This one is hopeless (although he is really a great guy). He could not follow a simple rhythm, even if his life depended on it. I have tried to adress this problem in many ways but at some point I decided to just go on with the flow (or something like that...) I think that the source of his problem is that he does not listen to others while he plays, and there is not much I can do about that. I am not,in any way, a great musician myself, so I can play the band leader or the teacher only up to a certain point.

Otherwise I just try to hang on to the rythm and play my lines. But it is getting harder to cope with and I am losing interest in playing with those guys. Last practice was particularly painful. The worst thing is that I am afraid I will lose my sense of rythm if I continue to play with him.

We jammed once with a drummer ( ironically, a friend of the guitar player) and believe me, I was happy as a pig in the mud! But, for all sorts of reasons, we did not repeat the experience . I have suggested that we invest in a drum machine, but this idea was not received with a great enthousiasm.

 

As we say in french "Tu peux mener ton cheval à la rivière, mais tu ne peux pas le forcer à boire".

I need a new band...

[davebrownbass]

It is a quandry.

 

Ultimately, they are the boss. I wouldn't dream of not following the leader.

 

Last night I played a concert with a highly respected women's chorus. The piano player had been to every rehearsal, learned the vagarities of the conductor, and led the group. Time was, shall we say, str-e---t----ch-----ed.

 

And that was a very good thing...

 

And I assumed that every slight time error was mine. I was counting, maintaining pulse and all the stuff I was supposed to do...but ultimately it was their music...their expression. And my job to reinforce that.

 

Same thing with the bluegrass band...although we do discuss time sometimes. In this instance, the band worries about dragging tempo, so they wind up rushing. I do my best to hold it back...I actually make a concerted attempt to do that always (rushing is everywhere!) Then they look at me and ask, "what happened?" In this instance, we all agree to concentrate on time a little more. They assume that I have a good grasp on things musical and they trust me. So they will understand if I critique them.

 

But I earned that by years of practice at competence.

 

You and the group must come to some agreement. But ultimately, it's their party.

[tnb]

I do duos and trios frequently with no drummer. I still function as I normally would,but if you get a even little wishy washy about the time nobody is going to follow you. Try simplifying your basslines.

[73 P Bass]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Time was, shall we say, str-e---t----ch-----ed.

 

And that was a very good thing...

 

And I assumed that every slight time error was mine. I was counting, maintaining pulse and all the stuff I was supposed to do...but ultimately it was their music...their expression. And my job to reinforce that.

 

One of the guys I play with is a singer songwriter guitar player. We always talk about getting a drummer but never do. I follow his time and feel for every given song. It is like a river flowing. Sometimes the water is higher and flows faster, sometimes slower. Usually though, the change of tempo makes the music better, so I trust him and do my best to follow.

But then again, we have been playing together for 15 years, so things are sort of intuative now.

[jeremy c]

I love my brother and have played on a few of his albums (he plays acoustic guitar). We always enjoy playing together and the three people who were listening to the live broadcast on KKUP on May 9 at 3:30 pm heard us play.

 

However, one of the most challenging things I've had to do in the studio was overdub a bass part to a completed track. This track was not recorded in strict time (why should it be? It was one guy playing acoustic guitar and singing). I was supposed to put my part in on the choruses only. In order to come in at the right point, they only way I could do it was to watch the timing on the tape machines...."I'll come in when it gets to 2:42.06".

 

If we had been playing together I could have either controlled his time a little or followed the ebb and flow of his time.

 

Ooh, I like that!

 

My new slogan:

 

Jeremy Cohen, bass. Controller of the ebb and flow of time.

[Ben]

It is always a mystery to me why people with no natural sense of time try to play music. That said, there are plenty who do.

 

Strict time, which is a good place to start, can usually be improved by practicing with a metronome, both individually and as a group. Then, when you collectively know what the strict time is, you can deviate from it on purpose for emotional enhancement. (Rubato is only rubato when you do it intentionally.)

 

I know this sounds snobby, but personally I try not to play more than once or twice with somebody who has no natural sense of time. Life is too short.

[NickT]

My originals band did a few opening slots without a drummer, before we got our first regular kit man. The keyboard player and I were guardians of the groove, as the guitar player and the female singer were focusing on providing melodic direction. The balance worked quite well.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Ooh, I like that!

 

My new slogan:

 

Jeremy Cohen, bass. Controller of the ebb and flow of time.

I like that, too.

 

Send me one of the business cards once you've got them printed!

 

Follow the leader. Sometimes that "ebb and flow" of time is good and fits the music. You may find, though, the more you play together, that the others will also listen to you more and that you will gain some control over time.

 

However, if the guitarist's timing is so all-over-the-place that it doesn't really fit the music, you may need to move on or make a much more aggressive effort to work with the others on getting the time together in the service of the music.

 

Peace.

[Banta]

Hey humabass. I don't know if this helps or not, but in the bands in which I've played without a drummer typically the tempo is initiated by whoever begins the song and after that the bass takes over. I feel it's my responsibility as the bassist to keep the tempo, and the bass just naturally defines the tempo for the other players.

[music-man]

My approach in "acoustic" settings is generally to lock up with the acoustic guitar. The thing is that the acoustic establishes all the high-frequency clinging and internal rhythm parts that you hear in the hats/snares/cymbals of a band with full drums ... and so in most cases people will automatically "feel" the pulse from the acoustic guitar (unless of course it's so bad that there isn't a pulse).

 

Unless you've got a super hi-fi sound, or you're playing slap (in which case I'm curious to hear how you make it work in an "acoustic" setting), the bass sound will be a lot less defined than the acoustic. And so if there's rhythmic space between you and the acoustic, the bass will sound "wrong" to most people, and the acoustic will sound "right." Conversely, if you are locked with the acoustic (meaning you adjust even if it's not quite solid), the band will sound tight, even if the tempo varies a bit.

 

Incidentally, I agree with others who would defer to the band leader ... it doesn't mean that you turn off your clock - you can still bring up in rehearsals that the chorus is rushing, or the bridge is too slow, etc. But out of rehearsals, when I'm out on stage, I'm going to adjust to the acoustic guitar (or the sitar, banjo, dumbek, tabla, or whatever other instrument will grab the listener's ear as establishing the "pulse.")

[Ninja]

Originally posted by Banta:

Hey humabass. I don't know if this helps or not, but in the bands in which I've played without a drummer typically the tempo is initiated by whoever begins the song and after that the bass takes over. I feel it's my responsibility as the bassist to keep the tempo, and the bass just naturally defines the tempo for the other players.

That works for me, too.

I often play in acoustic sets with my band, and we decided that whoever begins the song, sets the tempo for the others at least for the first three or four measures, then I take complete control.

I think it's easy for me because we've been playing together for six years. On the other hand I did have problems with people I played for the first time with, when they were not capable to follow the right timing, because of their limits or the fact they didn't know the song and tried to fit themselves in it.

Rehearsals is the magic word, but ear training too is never to be underestimated.

[humabass]

Thanks for your thoughts.

[sam 2000]

I have heard both ends of this story. my old band director used to say "there is no percusion so tubas play louader so you can help every one else keap time". On the other side my Bass instructer always said "If they start lossing time and speeding up or slowing down go with them becuase if you dont it will sound like crap."

 

"Just remeber if you are not the lead dance partner you dont tey to take control of the flow the dance or else you step on esch others feet" -sam 2000

and hey if you cant coup with it go find a band with a new drummer or if not dont step on feet

[...]

Originally posted by sam 2000:

...and hey if you cant coup with it go find a band with a new drummer or if not dont step on feet

You were just funny, and you have no idea why.

 

[sam 2000]

i know

and i didnt even mean to be hahahaahaha

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by Bumpcity:

Originally posted by sam 2000:

...and hey if you cant coup with it go find a band with a new drummer or if not dont step on feet

You were just funny, and you have no idea why.

 

[sam 2000]

i thinkit has something to do with a "new drummer"hahahahahahahaahaha

[humabass]

Repeats to himself,"someday sam will use spellcheck,someday sam will use spellcheck...."

[Adamixoye]

Hey, sam 2000, if you really want to be funny, go over to the Guitar Forum, post a lot, and sign your posts under the name "Bralalalala" or "BILLEVANS". Guaranteed laughs EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

But in order for the joke to REALLY be funny, make sure you forget that I was the one who told you to do so.

[Tom Capasso]

humabass,

 

In a perfect world, the "out of time" person in your group could be recorded or play with a metronome or click. That would prove your point, but will require the person to work hard to change their behavior (if possible). I've lost time when singing - I guess my head overloads.

 

It sounds like you want to stand on tradition and say "I'm the beat". But in a small group, it doesn't have to be that way. It will be harder for you to follow the lead, but it may work out best for the music.

 

I can't say that I've experienced this. I've never felt the need to assert myself as the "controller of the ebb and flow of time". Somehow it's always worked out without that...

 

Yes Jeremy - send out the business cards.

 

Tom

[Max Valentino]

I have a particular problem with the whole concept of "following" and "leading".

If a player is the de facto "leader" of the group, as in musical director...or if it is their name on the marquee...then yes you do follow their orders. In the case of a vocalist, you do lead from their cues; perhaps doubling a bridge, changing dynamics or phrasing...

In the case of written music, one follows the conductor and/or the composer.

 

But, this hierarchy of "who drives the bus" is a little insane. Great music is made through an exchange, a dialogue, between the players, and in that sense each instrument is essential and of equal value to the music. Yes, bassists have a certain command of the harmony, and to a great extent the rhythm, but that it only in tandem with the other instruments.

 

If you are playing "sans drummer", that does not infer that you are "sans rhythm" or tempo or time.

Believe it or not, it is not the drummer's job, or responsibility, to keep your time. That is your job...just as it is the job of the gtrist to keep his or her own. With all the players taking on the responsibility of their own "timekeeping" it allows for the ensemble to interplay rhythmically...and it is from this that music is created (as opposed to sound produced on musical instruments). The push and pull of real live humans playing music which is not metronomically perfect creates the much misaligned "pocket". It is not a question of roping in a drummer or gtrist who might be rushing (or pushing them if they are dragging). A musician who cannot accept the responsibility for their own "time", and cannot percieve how it both effects the music and the other players, and cannot manipulate their sense of rhythm enough to interact with the other players, is simply not ready yet to be called a musician.

 

I am sorry if this sounds harsh. But it is true. A sense of time is something both felt and learned. And it is essential for individuals as well as groups to practice their rhythmic accuity. Rhythm workouts (purposeful excercises inwhich players play polyrhtyms, cadences, or sequences of rhythmic durations) should be part of of your band rehearsals. If all involved were to increase their rhythmic accuity, there would be no debate over who's leading who...and your music would become much more dynamic and multi-dimensional.

 

In rehearsals which I lead, which is often I might add, I frequently stop tunes and ask players to play in half-time, cut-time, double time for a single verse "just to see..." as a diversion and to get them to listen to the "time" of the other players. I sometimes call a familar tune, but tell the players to "play it as a salsa"...or "a reggae"..or "in 3"...." This little exercise, while often to them seems silly, is really to get them to hear as well as listen to the music, not just themselves...or in some cases not so much to the drummer (I often ask drummers to not play a backbeat, or a downbeat). Often I will relax my own time sequentially, just to see who follows as I slide farther and farther behind the beat. To see who thinks I am dragging..or who "hears" how the rhythmic inflection changes without the tempo diving at all....

 

Really, if you are having problems with other players not have a strong rhythmic "sense" or perception, you are just starting to feel the frustration most good drummers feel all the time.

A group is only a strong as it's weakest link...if someone has "rhythmic dyslexia" or other metric disorders..then it something you all need to work on. Egos be damned...it is about making music as well as you possibly can.

 

Max

[BenLoy]

I have to agree with Max on this one. Good time is the responsibility of the whole group.

 

Every time a drummer or guitarist has to lean upon my time as a crutch, it's a physically draining experience for me. When the whole band has good time and feels it in the same way, though...it's effortless.

 

Work those metronomes, but more importantly: Tape yourself and listen to your playing. How's your time?

[Tom Capasso]

Right. We play together. Last week the drummer in my jam (who is excellent) told me (after we played) that he likes to "solo", and that when he does he expects me to be the drummer. Truth is we all just played together.

 

Max, I "drive the bus" in my band. This has nothing to do with keeping time, but with making arrangements, setting up rehearsals, drafting setlists, etc. My daughter said that when she saw us, there was the sense that I was in charge. I don't count off or play "metronome". I just prod people a bit. Sometimes they need it, sometimes they step up and say something different (which is always fine with me - we decide things as a group). But the band has always acknowledged that I drive the bus....

 

Tom

[PhilMan99]

There's the "indirect" approach. Perhaps you could physically rock back and forth (sort of dance), or move your bass's neck back and forth to the "real" tempo. You could SAY you're just trying to follow the rhythm guitar, but your physical movement would have an effect too (unless you're way in back and nobody can see you)...

[humabass]

Max is very wise. This was a past situation I'm no longer involved with but thought it was a topic worthy of discussion. I have a very strong groove and sense of time. Every time I sub for a local group my wife is familiar with she says the band "sounds so much better." Many drummers I play with say they actually follow my rhythmic sense rather than theirs which allows them to relax and play a little "looser". One great local drummer says that even though he may play with guys with more technique,more theory knowledge,great readers,etc.,he loves playing with me because I "play bass" and he loves my feel. Obviously this causes me to believe that I'm the world's greatest bassist past,present,or future. While this may or may not be true,I guess I don't react well when told to follow someone who's tempo is fluctuating. Believe me I'm not so rigid as to not "go with the flow". I listen very carefully to what everybody is doing and adjust as needed rhythmically,melodically,whatever,to make it musical. I think as a general rule singer/songwriters who are used to playing solo should be advised to take advantage of the rhythmic sense of the players they hire who theoretically were hired to perform that function.

 

P.S. Hope I don't sound like I'm bragging and my wife better not just be saying that "to be nice". There's probably a lot of incoheent rambling in this post but I'm at work and keep getting "interrupted" by people asking me things that are job related..what nerve!