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Help!! Trying to add theory after years without


Deep Creek

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Posted

Well, I am new to the forum and I see that there is a lot of expert opinion on here. A lot that I don't understand yet. I have searched for my issue on the forum and could not find it so please forgive me if this has been covered:

 

I have been playing off and on for about 10 years, nothing real serious, but it is getting that way now. I started playing by simply asking the guitarist - "What are the chords" and would then begin by playing the root and adding what seemed to sound good. And I still play that way. I never asked - what KEY is it in? Is it an E or Eminor, etc? So now after all these years I want to beef up my theory knowledge so that I can make cool lines quicker or even on the fly after being told the key instead of my previous trial and error. I have bought a beginners book which covers keys and every chord in the world. I am stuck between looking through all the chords in the book or learning the basic ones through a LOT of repition.

 

(Shut up Creek - you write too much!!) Bottom line, after all these years of playing I have done in the wrong way (?), what do you all think would be best and quickest approach to learning and understanding enough theory to be dangerous? Which chords to focus on, how do you memorize things, etc, etc.

 

CAN you all teach on old dog new tricks? Thanks a ton for any help ANYBODY can give!!

 

:confused:

Deep Creek

Knoxville

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Posted

The fastest way is to go slowly, grasshopper. It sounds silly, but it's true.

 

Get with a good bass teacher. Learn your scales and argpeggios. Progress will be slow. You may have to unlearn what you have learned. Learn to love practicing. Hone your ear by listening to records. Try to copy bassists you love.

 

It will be worth it.

Posted

Assuming you have mastered at least an understanding of what the scale notes are, and chord basics ...

 

Since you've played a while, and probably have worked out bass parts for songs by ear, one place to start would be to write out the parts you already know well, and analyze them harmonically.

 

In other words:

 

1. Write out your parts on staff paper.

2. Under the notes, write the Chord changes in the right place.

3. Over the notes, write the scale step that your part has used (as in "minor 3" or "5" or "7").

 

This exercise in itself will likely be illuminating; for example, you may realize that you ALWAYS play the "1" of the chord at the top of every bar.

 

Then ... what you can do is to begin writing out alternative parts to the ones you know well. This will give you a sense of how you can alter your approach to playing/writing parts.

Posted

I'm self-taught too, and I started by learning scales. Nothing too fancy, start w/ major and minor scales. Make it second nature to know where the 1, 3, 5, and 7 are (1, b3, 5, b7 for minor.) Then you'll start to see relationships between different chords and how they can be linked together. For example:

 

G7

1 3 5 7

G B D F

 

Em7

1 b3 5 b7

E G B D

 

Pretty close, just moved around huh? That's because Em is the "relative minor" of G (Am is the rel. minor of C, F# is to A . . . etc.) Make sense? Hope so. Basically what I'm saying is what everybody else will say: Scales, scales, scales. They're what the foundation of a song is built on, so learn 'em.

Ah, nice marmot.
Posted

I would recommend learning the structure of all of the main chords, then learn your scales. With the minimal knowledge of chord structure, you will be able to create interesting lines. With the added knowledge of scales (and later modes), you will be able to tie everything together.

 

If you can separate the two, try learning both at the same time. Set aside "Chord time" and "scale time".

 

DON'T FORGET TO PRACTICE TO A METRONOME!! I know that you have been around the block before, but even seasoned players can benefit from this exercise.

 

Good luck! I am a salty old dog too! Is 30 salty old or just old? lol

 

Peace,

Tom

Bee, why you sting me? - Jack Kerouac
Posted

Really good advice so far, this helps a bunch - thanks. The book I bought has all the scales in it and all the chords and modes pretty much. I guess I was just concerened on trying to learn too much of it in a short time. I do know how to play the major scales from any point, but need to learn how to come up with good original bass lines to a key and do it on the fly, almost. That is my goal. I can play some good lines once I figure them out, just want to do it quicker.

 

Thanks and keep the good advice coming!

 

:thu:

Deep Creek

Knoxville

Posted

Chord progressions, or "Why knowing the key is important."

 

You have already discovered that chords change. Bass players spell out those changes as they play.

 

Now, chords aren't just linked together randomly (well, sometimes they are...but the composer eventually gets back to something like a tonal center.) Chords progress in many ways...the best way for me to describe that is tension and release.

 

So, let's think of these chords: C, F and G. These chords are the Root, IV and V chords of the Key of C. (That's because C is on the root of the C scale, F is on the fourth step of the C Scale and G is on the fifth.)

 

Now...the C chord is home...comfy...feels good. Song is over. So we play a C, then progress to F.

 

This motion away from the root increases tension.

 

Let's now progress to the G, especially the G7...

 

This chord really increases tension, because it anticipates what's coming next...the C Chord.

 

In brutally simplistic terms...movement away from a tonal center increases tension...movement back to a tonal center increases relaxation. And chords that move by a Perfect Fourth have a built in implied harmonic motion (test term there).

 

Now, this doesn't have to be only these chords. And the chords don't even have to belong to the initial key.

 

Eventually, though, the goal of all western harmony is to travel down a winding trail, flirting with the tonal center, but eventually ending on it. Song over.

 

(Some songs, a very few, sneakily end on something other than a root. These songs leave you with a vague unsettled feeling...and make you want to hear the next song on the album!)

"Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread.

 

Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate.

Posted

Now I want to discuss why understanding the concept of tonality is useful as you learn songs.

 

Remember...a song has a general tonal center, which is the key the song is written in. However, there are "localized" tonal centers suggested...a group of 2 or 3 chords within a song that suggest a new harmony.

 

Here's an example. Song in key of C has these chords:

 

C///

F///

c///

C///

D7///

G7///

C////

 

In this case, the D7 is actually borrowed from the key of G...that's why it works so well in setting up the G7 chord.

 

Now, during this time, if you're playing a walking bass line or solo, the use of the note F# really sounds good in this local area of the song...it strengthens the changes.

"Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread.

 

Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate.

Posted
Originally posted by Deep Creek:

I do know how to play the major scales from any point, but need to learn how to come up with good original bass lines to a key and do it on the fly, almost. That is my goal. I can play some good lines once I figure them out, just want to do it quicker.

Get some old Motown songs, mimic the bass parts, then take the bit of theory that you have learned, and chart out which note the bass player plays. After a while, you'll see that there are all sorts of bass lines that just move around the chord/scale in different orders.

 

1-2-3-5-6-8

 

Pick a key, say, C, and play those notes really slowly.

 

C-D-E-G-A-C

 

Bam, you've got yourself a bass line for a Motown hit. Which one? You tell me, I was only born in 1978. :)

 

Do that over and over, and eventually the theory will start to click, and you'll be able to say "Oh, here's something that will sound good with this song!" and there you go, you're writing original bass lines, quickly.

Posted

Now I want to tell you how I use the understanding of music theory in my playing.

 

I'm playing a series of gigs with the Women's Chorus of Dallas this week. Dozens of songs, multiple medleys, frequent key changes and "secondary dominants" or other borrowed chords from other keys.

 

I'm playing along, and I'm aware (subconsciously, these days) of the tonal center of the selection and of the the tonality of what I'm playing right now.

 

I'm not using chords, they're not even written on the page...I have a written out Root-Fifth bass line. However, I want to add fills and walk-ups to make the line better. Because I'm aware of the harmony, my fills and walk-ups "sound right." That's because they ARE right...they properly support the harmony.

 

That's not any great talent on my part. Virtually every bass player I know who gigs does exactly the same thing...with every note they play.

 

Added advantage...let's say there is a mistake in the score (even in orchestra music this works) The conductor will ask me what the note is...because he knows, like all good conductors, that bass players have an instinctive knowlege of the harmony (also called music theory) of the piece.

 

And this works even if I don't have the questionable note in my part at all.

 

I would advise a systematized study of music theory for anyone who wants to be a serious bass player. I did mine in 2 years at college...best 2 years I ever spent (these days, they do it in 2 semesters...go figure)

 

The more you understand about how chords progress, or work together, the better bassist you'll be. Or guitarist or banjoist, as the case may be.

"Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread.

 

Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate.

Posted
Great stuff from everyone. Thanks for taking so much time with this. I'll be working on some of the ideas given here. Thanks again and I'll catch you all later!

Deep Creek

Knoxville

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