JulieCat Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Yeah, I know, dumb newbie question. I did a search. I searched "in the pocket," "pocket," "in the," "lint," and "kangaroo." There are a lot of references to that phrase, but no clear definition. I have a theory or two, but not sure if I'm right. Is it one of those things that "I can't define it, but know it when I see it?" And if I can't define it, should I just hang up the whole bass thing right now? Okay, don't answer that second one. So what does it mean, exactly? What's a good example of someone being in the pocket? Thanks! Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Julie... Defining "in the pocket" is kinda like defining "funk." Everyone essentially agrees about what it means in a visceral way, but very few people can literally explain what it means. It's kind of subjective... but here's what I think: To me, it means when the band's groove is locked together so tightly that they sound like there's nothing that could stop it. It sounds effortless. It sounds like the band couldn't screw up even if it tried. It's about confidence and coolheadedness -- even if the band is flying along at furious speeds. It's when the downbeat of the bass drum and the bass guitar are totally indistiguishable. The deeper the pocket, the deeper the groove. It sounds like the whole band is operating with the same brain. As an "in the pocket" player, this means you're able to hear what the other players are doing all the time. It means you are able to react to the little nuances in their playing and do things to enhance them. Sometimes this means laying back... other times it means jumping on things. The better your "pocket," the better you are at knowing the right things to do in any given situation. A good example? Bootsy Collins' pocket is so deep, if he drops his change in there, he has to kick it back up to his hand. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlock1016 Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Very good description...to me, it's just a feeling, as you're playing in a band set-up, that you're just "on." You could groove all night, and never get tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 There are a lot of pocket rhythm sections.... I mentioned Fleetwood Mac the other day, but listening to the Meters would also give an example. Here's my definition of a drummer/bassist pocket combination: The two players play note choices that fit together like 2 gears. In other words, neither the bassist or drummer plays a lot of extraneous wandering about. The two players lock time together. This means that they start the notes precisely with each other and (often neglected) end notes precisely with each other The players "play the rests." By this, I mean that when there is a rest, it is started with an attack...specifically a string dampening on the bass. Often there will be a pattern where the bass plays on 1 and 3, and the drummer plays something on 2 and 4. The bassist cuts off his note exactly when the drummer strikes his. The two players play as an organic one...it's a mystic thing. You hear a lot of people talking about bass and drum connected at the hip. This offen implies a close commitment...like a marriage, between the two. That is a false impression. I can lock in with a drummer I don't even know...if he's committed to me and to, most importantly, the music. Eschew sloppiness. There's a lot of inarticulate mumbling going on in the interplay with the rhythm section. Each player should make a commitment to play as cleanly as possible. The instruments are always under control, but perhaps are on the verge of being outta control. If games are played with time...i.e. ahead of the beat, behind the beat...all players are on board with it. Well, that's a start...I'm quite sure others will chime in. "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jreed Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 A good example? Bootsy Collins' pocket is so deep, if he drops his change in there, he has to kick it back up to his hand. Thats great! A good example. jreed jreed00@dcemail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 JulieCat, Thanks for this question. I got up a few times at a jam Wednesday. The second time was with a leader/guitarist that loves to play Creedence Clearwater Revival's "Born On The Bayou". Last week he did it with an excellent bassist that didn't know the tune. I shouted the notes from the sidelines for the first verse (same with "Brown Eyed Girl). But I was glad when I got my chance to get up and play this week. We did "Bayou", "The Thrill Is Gone", and "Honky Tonk Woman". I knew I took care of those parts (well, I'd never played "Thrill", but it was fine). When I got off, my bassist buddy (that played it last week) told me I was solid in the pocket - great pocket. I knew we had been tight. It was cool, because there were a lot of us - drums, me, house bassist playing rhythm, house sound guy playing rhythm and lead, leader singing and playing lead. But that term "pocket".... I have often wondered about this term. I've been successful and unsuccessful playing with people. But I really don't know how to identify "the pocket". There are times when I think the music is great, but that didn't mean that (for example) the drummer and bass were matching notes. I always pictured the pocket as a tight unison kind of thing. Erik and Dave have given me something to ponder. Tom www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Ive always thought that in the pocket meant that youre well within the rhythm of the song. As a bass player I always split my role in the band into 2 parts. First theres the musical link to the melody. What am I doing underneath the chord structure of the song, or what am I doing underneath the melody. Simply put, this part of the job comes down to the notes. Second theres the rhythm. What beats am I putting the notes onto? I can play the root simply, but rhythmically play those simple roots rather dynamically. So what is the pocket? To me its the rhythm part of the song. The drummer basically creates the pocket for you to play in. The better the drummer the deeper the pocket is to play in of course. Bootsy is a great example of in the pocket. Hes never busy with his note selection. Its what beats hes putting those notes on thats key. Hit me!!!!! Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Another thought: A band is really "in the pocket" when everyone internally agrees on where all the notes lie (i.e. how swung they are, which ones are pushed and which ones are laid back), how the notes are accented and what the overriding harmonic feel is; and everyone has the technical capability to play what they hear in their head. You've got to believe that you're playing in the pocket to play in the pocket - if you get the attitude right and listen hard, everything else will fall into place. Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorg Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Nice discussion. Let's throw in a posing: It is for the audience to decide what is 'in the pocket', not for the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Some examples may help. The first sixteen bars of Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" is DEEP in the pocket. AC/DC's "Back In Black" is very in the pocket. Phil Rudd is famous as a pocket player - steady, driving groove, few fills. The "pocket" can make you shake your ass, but it can make you bang your head, too. The pocket can also be very busy, but it takes an ultimate master to make that happen. Tower Of Power's "What Is Hip" is in the pocket, but its busy groove will make your head swim while it makes your booty move. Rocco Prestia, bass, David Garibaldi, drums. Who knew that two West Coast Italian dudes could be that funky? Most any Steely Dan song is in the pocket. Try "Babylon Sisters," with Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on drums, for a bootylicious example of the infamous "Purdie shuffle" - the pocket in triplets. Matter of fact, find anything with Chuck Rainey on bass and Purdie on drums for a pocket deeper than Carlsbad Caverns. ALL Motown is in the pocket. ALL Stax/Volt is in the pocket. Imagine a line, a continuum, that is marked "In The Pocket" on one end and "Total Chops Heaven" on the other. A song like Marvin Gaye's Mercy Mercy Me" would be at the pocket end of the spectrum, whereas Frank Zappa's "THe Black Page" is at the other end. The pocket, simply put, is a place where a no-frills groove makes you feel better than any chops-bashing licks you ever heard. As much as I love listening to, say, ELP, they don't have much of a pocket. But then, I doubt that Booker T and the MGs could play "Tarkus" as well as them, either. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Martin Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Originally posted by Jorg: Nice discussion. Let's throw in a posing: It is for the audience to decide what is 'in the pocket', not for the player.Nope; if the band feels like there's a groove or a pocket, that groove is independent of whether or not there's an audience. Dave Martin Java Jive Studio Nashville, TN www.javajivestudio.com Cuppa Joe Records www.cuppajoerecords.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibescotty Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Originally posted by Jorg: Nice discussion. Let's throw in a posing: It is for the audience to decide what is 'in the pocket', not for the player.The audience always decides everything in the end yes but it can be defined and we can know how to do it by studying those who have come before us. Least I like to think that. Double Posting since March 2002 Random Post Generator #26797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music-man Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 To me, a PLAYER is in the pocket. A band creates the pocket. As to what it is ... It's the rhythmic place where you SHOULD feel the "pulse." For example, of course "one" occurs at the beginning of the bar, and two follows one, etc. But there are a lot of different ways that you can play the "one" of a bar - and sometimes it's more appropriate for the bass player and drummer to play a hair in front of the beat, or a hair behind - or it may be that the drummer should play spang on the beat, and the bass player a hair in front of the beat ... All of this is subjective, and dependent on the style of music, but the point is that for a given style of music, and a given band, there is usually a sense of pulse and timing that "works" and a lot that really don't work. So ... "pocket" means a sense of pulse that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humabass Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 "In the pocket" means that your always right where you should be. Just like change in your pants pocket,it's always "right there" no matter how fast or slow your walkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meccajay Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Just listen to that 1st Frankey Beverly Live CD, and you'll get it! Or Prince & Sheila E- Love Bizarre TROLL . . . ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Smith Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 To me "in the pocket" has always meant that the bassist and drummer are just completely in sync, as if they were one solid unit. A good example is Double Trouble, the guys that played for Stevie Ray Vaughn. Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end. --King Crimson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 If you asked me what "beauty" is, there are some people, places, & things I'd show you; you'd see what I meant, & the rest would be up to you. Have you ever been trying to build or fix something, & you're trying to get these two parts to fit together, & they don't fit & they don't fit, & then they kind of fit, but then they pop apart again, so you try again, & so on, until finally the parts just snap together & stay--sometimes you can actually hear or feel the snap? At that point, you know they fit right, & it just feels satisfying. In music, that "snap" is called being "in the pocket." Folks above have pointed you to some things to check out. I'll add these two: * Watch "Standing in the Shadows of Motown." All the tracks. Then watch them again. And again. That is what pocket IS. (Bonus: Jack Ashford even shows you how the Funk Brothers put together the pocket, one part at a time, on the groove of "Ain't Too Proud to Beg." It brings a tear to the eye. Another bonus: if there's a vocalist deeper in the pocket than Chaka Khan is, I'd like to know who it is.) The Funk Brothers are the Platonic Form of pocket. * Watch "Stop Making Sense." The band comes on stage progressively, & although each part individually is pretty simple, as each part is added to the others, things just get tighter & the pocket gets deeper. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickT Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Often you can feel "pocket", especially with drummers. If your job feels easy then the drummer has "pocket". Sometimes your hand might not fit in his pocket. Free your mind and your ass will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfmonkey Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I think music-man's definition is perfect. The pocket can move around. I have no homepage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 When you're playing in the pocket, the song will 'pulse' or 'breath'. It's primarily up to the rhythm section to make this happen, but ideally you want the whole band to be hip to it. You will know when you're in the pocket. Everything just 'feels right'. Rocco Prestia and David Garibaldi. That is about as in the pocket as you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarion Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 To add to this already brilliant dissertation would be difficult, but here's my input: The pocket is indeed mobile, but the visceral way to tell if it is a good, deep one is if it makes you want to dance. There are lots of different types of pockets too; and they are genre and player specific. the type that seems to be most commonly associated with the word "pocket" is a nice, horizontal, "funky" sounding groove. Think The Commodores' Brick House and you have the idea. There there is the upright, white bread pocket, characterized by Bob Seger's "Old Time Rock And Roll", or BTO's "Takin Care of Business"... both very tight pockets, but very "vertical", very upright. Then you have the shuffle pockets... Half-time groove shuffle: Steely Dan's Home At Last or Toto's Rosanna (also known as the Purdie Shuffle) Regular groove shuffle: Boz Skaggs' Lido Shuffle You see how complex a concept it is? The common element has been described in posts before this with great accuracy. It's where the drummer and bassist are together physically and spiritually. Sometimes grooves are defined by their relentless precision (any Dave Weckl or Vinnie Coliauta drummed piece) and sometimes by their "tight but loose" feel (The Beatles) Does that help? Cheers! Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor www.llarion.com Smooth Jazz - QUESTION AUTHORITY. Go ahead, ask me anything. http://www.llarion.com/images/dichotomybanner.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro_Man Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 I've never hear of this term before but i now kinda have an idea of what you mean but i guess its more of a personal view of what is "in the pocket" its one of those unanserable questions like "what is love?" and "what does yellow taste like?". I did like the comment about the having to kick the change back up, well done. afro x "i must've wrote 30 songs the first weekend i met my true love ... then she died and i got stuck with this b****" - Father of the Pride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian D.Pocket Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Grooooove,baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Originally posted by Adrian Smith: To me "in the pocket" has always meant that the bassist and drummer are just completely in sync, as if they were one solid unit. A good example is Double Trouble, the guys that played for Stevie Ray Vaughn.Awww, DAY-um. Talk about a pocket. Double Trouble LIVES in the pocket. A pocket deep enough to hold all Bill Gates's money. Couldn't Stand The Weather. Cold Shot. Mary Had A Little Lamb. Tightrope. Have MERCY! "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieCat Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Originally posted by Llarion: Does that help?Yes! Wow. Brilliant dissertation indeed. I'm nearly speechless. My theories were right, and they were wrong. It's so much more than a definition. Thank you everyone, I've taken something from each of your replies. I hope someone else got something out of this, too. You guys are the best! Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earljam Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Check out Kenny Gradney of Little Feat on Waiting for Columbus. Could bring tears to a glass eye. The pocket is why you want to play with your friends and get that good feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 In the pocket? A fine term, indeed! The rhythm is so tight that you can't help but break yo' neck! Peace. spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Z Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 JulieCat, What a Great topic! I have not yet been "in the pocket" with a drummer yet. A lot of heavy petting, but not the real deal. (please forgive the risque analogy!) I've been close, but no cigar! I have felt a "pocket" type of connection to our lead guitar player though. When we play Little Wing (Jimi Hendrix version), I can close my eyes and FEEL that we are totally in synch. It's very cool. What I am really pleased to realize is this, since some artists are in the pocket, then other artists must not be, which makes me feel better. Even though I realize that the music sounds really great when that pocket is achieved, it doesn't mean that you can't still make great and entertaining music. Or am I wrong? Someone please correct me if so. I'll let you know when it happens for the first time! ... Connie Z "Change comes from within." - Jeremy Cohen The definition of LUCK: When Preparation meets Opportunity! http://www.cybergumbo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_lover Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Originally posted by Connie Z: ....since some artists are in the pocket, then other artists must not be... This statement by Connie Z made me think we have heard examples of what the pocket "in the pocket" is , so wouldn't it be great to hear what "in the pocket" isn't ? Does anyone have any examples of a song, group, or rhythm section where it's not "in the pocket"? I think it would be a good teaching tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Z Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Originally posted by bass_lover: Originally posted by Connie Z: ....since some artists are in the pocket, then other artists must not be... This statement by Connie Z made me think we have heard examples of what the pocket "in the pocket" is , so wouldn't it be great to hear what "in the pocket" isn't ? Does anyone have any examples of a song, group, or rhythm section where it's not "in the pocket"? I think it would be a good teaching tool.Great request! I'd love to hear some opinions. ... Connie Z "Change comes from within." - Jeremy Cohen The definition of LUCK: When Preparation meets Opportunity! http://www.cybergumbo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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