Fewer solos please.

[NickT]

I was listening to the new Smashin Pumpkins "Best of" with my drummer on the way to a gig. It was interesting to note that as the song writing got better and more confident the guitar solos disappeared.

 

Personally I am rapidly going off solos of all kinds. As much as I love improvising on stage and getting a vibe going with the other players, you have no idea how bored I got as my funky blues band wandered off into yet another 8 minute long tune. SNORE!!!

 

Why do guitar players spend so much of their time worrying about solos when they spend 95% of the time being part of the rhythm section.

 

I was asked by a songwriter mate of mine if a guitar player I know would suit the band he is putting together. The nicest thing I could think to say about his playing is that he is Guitar George (he knows ALL the chords) and he has a firm belief that 1, 2, 3 and 4 are spaced evenly throughout the bar.

[MattC]

I think it's got to do with the advent of Jazz music earlier this century. Much of the ability to play jaz well is rooted in the ability to spontaneously create music. Soon this turned into the revered "solo" spot wherein one player would play his guts out for 8 bars, 16 bears, or a few minutes. Players (especially those in the bebop tradition) breathed pure fire from out of their horns, strings, or sticks, and it was really something to watch.

As intertwined as jazz and blues are, it is no doubt that rock music, which was spawned from blues, was also influenced by jazz. Solos became more and more codified, but the fire didn't leave.

Or did it?

There have been a lot of gratituous solos pressed to disc. I'm not referring to big, wanking, 80's style guitar leads because that was the asthetic of the music: indulgence. What I mean is what you're referring to. There is a time and place, a revered place, for soloing. What would SRV be without his solos? A damn fine rhythm player, but no more. Some music isn't built for solos, and it should stay that way.

 

that being said, shred on!

[humabass]

I grew up playing air guitar to all the great rock guitarists. I LOVE guitar solos but only played by people who can play well. It seems that with the advent of Grunge and "Alternative" (whatever the h*ll that means!) guitar solos disappeared from rock music. My theory is that it was because lots of guitar players just weren't that good. They picked up a guitar,learned a few chords,"wrote a song",and the music marketing machine took over. Don't get me wrong,I've listened to a lot of "Modern Rock" bands and heard lots of good singing,songwriting,and playing but then when the guitarist plays a solo I find that he just can't! As for 8 minute jams..well it depends on who's playing. I don't mind listening to Duane Allman and Dicky Betts solo for 8 minutes,or Clapton,or Hendrix but Joe Schmoe from across town might be another story.

[Mike R.]

This reminds me when we had a gig, and the guitar kept playing these 10 minute solo's that we did'nt plan for so me and the druumer and the vocalist were waiting for the guitar player to stop. The audience loved it, but it got annoying for us.

[dj jud]

I'm not so sure that the reason why guitar solos disappeared from rock music was because the players weren't that good. I think a lot of it had to do with the abuse of guitar solos in the late 80's. I mean, we had a whole cottage industry of players on labels like Shrapnel putting out entire albums of guitar instrumentals. IMHO it was really boring. I think that, combined with 80's excesses like whammy bars and harmonized solos broke the camel's back. As a guitar player, it's really hard now to play anything that doesn't sound derivative of that, unless you just play noise.

[Adamixoye]

Isn't there an art to "short solos" that maybe should be considered here? I've heard "solos" in songs less than 4 minutes (the song, not the solo--the solo is only a chorus length or so).

 

Just a thought. Seems like the original comment was presenting a false dilemma of sorts.

[Cup]

The band I play in has a "no Solo" policy. Both guitarists are way better than average, and do shred, but not in a typical "here comes the solo" song format. They both tear it up, but usually while the singer's singing.

 

I find most solo's extremely boring. I was born in 76 so I think the eighties may have killed any natural love of solo's I was born with.

 

Cup

[...]

wHETHER OR NO.. dammit, Caps lock was still on from that silly 'Geezer Butler is god' thread.

 

Again.

 

Whether or not a song has solos is kind of beside the point. If the solo(s) are any good is more the point. Some people can wank for hours over changes and say nothing where as some cats say in 4 bars and 3 notes everything that needed to be said. Developing ideas and being tasty is what good soloing is all about.

[dcr]

I'm with bumpcity on this one. I still remember vividly the first time I got turned on to Floyd--Rick Wright had all this open synth space on the beginning of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond," and Gilmour came in with this one note, just hanging there, followed by the same note again, just hanging. I was mesmerized. When I really started listening to Gilmour, my appreciation of solos totally changed. At the top of his game, he could move mountains with just a handful of notes. (It was the opposite of everything I disliked about 80s Eddie Van Halen!) I always loved the solo on the title track on "The Final Cut"--utter simplicity, but very moving. And some very tasty moments during the bluesy sections of "Atom Heart Mother" and "Echoes." And...well, you get the point.

 

There's a certain genius to the ability to do that; just take a listen to some of Miles' greatest solos on "Kind of Blue," or Jaco on "A Remark You Made."

 

In fact, I'd like a bass solos a whole lot more if they had more of that sort of quality to them.

[humabass]

David Gilmour is one of my favorite guitarists. Beautiful phrasing. His playing moved seemlessly from textural to rhythmic to lead. He also has played some beautiful solos with more than a handful of notes. I don't care how many notes a guitarist plays as long as he creates ONE great solo. I love B.B.King as much as Allan Holdsworth.

Maybe the guitar solo did disappear as a reaction to the mindless shredding of the 80's. Damn those 80's

[sam 2000]

i agree solos are extremly over rated but i still enjoy tapping out vanhalen solos on my 1970 4001 rick with the over drive and delay turned all the way up and makin my hole body sweat as the shear fastness of the bass notes coliding with feed backand the ticks of my watch being picked up by the pickups creates asound so incredible it makes my dad yell down the stairs for me to turn it down but i just keep playin even after he comes down stairs and unplugs the amp

*Breaths* amen

[jeremy c]

Well, I do play a lot of jazz where the solos are the point of the whole thing. Sometimes we may only play four songs in an hour set.

 

Rock is a little different. Just a little.

 

Alternative came about after the excesses of the previous decades.

 

I remember seeing Vanilla Fudge do a concert where each of the four members had a fifteen minute solo section, on stage by themselves. The bass player was Tim Bogert and the drummer was Carmine Appice, so things could have been worse.

 

And of course, there were no solos in alternative because that was part of the ethic, also because IMHO no one could actually play well enough. No one in alternative can sing either.

 

[Donning flame suit]

 

The Edge can't play guitar at all...he only plays one note. Anthony Kiedis is the worst singer I've ever heard..and would you really like to hear a bass solo by Mike Dirnt? Just to name a few of my favorite targets.

 

Meanwhile I can listen to John Scofield or Mike Stern solo for hours. And I've heard Mike Stern play many 20 minute guitar solos, I've seen him live a half a dozen times.

 

Just depends who we are talking about and what the musical situation is.

[Dan South]

Solos are fine as long as they support the musical idea. George Harrison was the absolute king of this concept. Listen to ANY Beatles record, and this will become clear immediately.

 

In jazz, solos are all there is. Jazz is musical fun over well-known changes. In rock and pop and R&B, you have to be more tasteful. I think that EVERY song could use a tasteful solo, but that most soloists aren't tasteful. They fail because they focus on technique over musicality.

 

In my humble opinion, bass players are ALWAYS soloing. They're soloing a well-constructed counter point with the singer and the other instuments. James Jamerson was probably the best bass soloist ever, and he really never played a "solo" on any of the Motown records (unless you count his duet with Diana Ross on her version of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough"). Jamerson's bass lines were solos happening under the melody. They gave you a second melody to listen to at the same time.

 

Alternative solos? Flea's played a number of them. Check out "Aeroplane" for a semi-Jaco-esque solo. Mike Dirnt's opening riff to their big hit - I don't remember the name of the tune - was a solo of sorts. It MADE the tune. Jeff Ament and Robert DeLeo are capable of solo caliber playing, but in grunge, it's about the SONG and the MESSAGE, not the pyrotechnics.

 

I don't know why some of you guys are down on grunge and alternative players. To me, grunge SAVED bass playing. Remember the eighties? Just about every rock song was repeated eighth notes.

 

Bum-bum-bum-bum bum-bum-bum-bum

Bum-bum-bum-bum bum-bum-bum-bum

Bum-bum-bum-bum bum-bum-bum-bum

Bum-bum-bum-bum bum-bum-bum-bum

 

Thank the good Lord that the eighties are behind us. Alternative RULEZ!!!

 

 

[Adamixoye]

Originally posted by Dan South:

I don't know why some of your guys are down on grunge and alternative players. To me, grunge SAVED bass playing. Remember the eighties. Just about every rock song was repeated eighth notes.

 

Alternative RULEZ!!!

 

 

Thank you, Dan. Best summary of the issue I've read in this forum in a loooong time.

 

Still no mention of short solos. What about solos that are only a chorus length or two? Those work best for alternative and grunge. That's why I said the original comment was a false dilemma...it pitted "no solos" vs. "8 minute solos". There is a middle ground...

[NickT]

I don't think that I explained myself very well in my original post. I guess the point that I was trying to make was that as the song writing got better the Smashing Pumpkins felt no need to fill out the song with guitar solos.

 

Also I have noticed that for the most part I tend to switch off during solos. I much prefer to hear a musician at the peak of his craft playing a great part to enhance a song. Having said that I still love Portrait of Tracey and it is one of my Desert Island Disks. It's just that most of the time solos don't appear to have much to do with the song, they seem like a little island fretw**k (work?) in the sea of a song.

[Graham56]

About the only long solos I can listen to are from Neil Young in 'electric' mode. At his best,even as he goes off into his own space, wringing all sorts of sounds from his guitar, he manages to stay within the structure and feel of the song.

 

Although of late he's playing longer and longer, while the tempo is getting slower and almost dirge-like. Which is a shame.

 

I'm a publisher by trade, and when I hear someone going off on a 'long one' my reaction is usually that they need a good editor!

 

Graham

[BenLoy]

NickT, I think your problem is mostly with players who can't solo well.

 

Charlie Parker used to say if you can't say it all in 4 choruses or less, than you're just repeating yourself.

 

Jam bands are a favorite target of mine. Trey Anastasio from Phish is a fine player, but I can't stand listening to their 20-minute jams...because nothing happens! They start vamping over a chord and while Trey endlessly pours out melodic ideas that, while interesting from a harmonic standpoint, are devoid of dynamics. They're fine players...and their jams are still gobs better than the meandering mush the Dead used to dole out, but I don't find it interesting.

 

MMW, yes I like their improvisations...but they're coming more out of the Miles/Herbie fusion tradition. The Allman Brothers? Now you're talking.

 

(Ben dons his own, super-triple-asbestos layered boxer shorts).

 

In rock, a solo should compliment a song. In jazz, solos are kind of the point...but the musical stakes are higher. In jazz you shouldn't be just running licks, but composing a new melody on the spot. That's a lot harder, and it's one of the reasons I don't call myself a jazz player even though I've studied it to a fair degree. My stock licks always end up falling out over certain chords (especially diminished chords: "Gee, Ben....that's the same whole-tone lick you played two choruses ago, isn't it? )

[Max Valentino]

I have always ben troubled by the whole term "solo" ( and even more so by the term "lead"). The correct musical definition of solo is "a passage or composition for a single voice or instrument". It seems in the context of popular music, we are meaning to refer to "instrumental interludes" within a composition...but this is all antics with semantics.

 

I have nothing against "solos" (your term), and in fact do most of my playing of late as a soloist (my term...sans accompaniment), so I do play a great deal of "solos". (and, in case you are wonderin', I do, somehow, manage to make a living primarliy as a solo bassist!). Yet, I will add that I guard my playing with two maxims;

"just because you CAN do something doesn't mean neccesarily that you SHOULD" and "if you have nothing to say, shut up".

 

The problem with most rock bands is the "soloists" really have nothing to say musically. The era of the guitar hero has made it easy, and in some ways required, for rock tunes to include the gratuitous gtr solo, yet very few players (please no flame wars on this) really have anything to say on their instrument. KNowing a few scales,a few eye popping licks and tricks, which can be executed in a semi-dazzling display of dexterity hardly equates to be anything of musical value, and by nature most rock players rarely tend to look deeper for musical dialogue and transcendence.

 

Of course, to be fair, this is rare in jazz also.

The cult of the soloist has brought rise to the preponderance of gratuitous solos of whatever kind, from every instrument, which mostly hold little or no musical merit save for some temporary ego gratification.

 

I am glad to hear many of your bands are in "no-solo" mode, yet I must say that legislating such action can also be too restrictive.

 

In addition to being a solo bassist, and a studio player, I work as a sideman in quite a few different projects. Due to my reputation, I am almost always "awarded" a solo spot in the set, an honor I almost always decline. If the music does not call for a bass solo, I am not going to be the one to force it.

 

When I do "cave in" and play a solo in a band performance, it is almost always quite short, with a defined begining, middle and end all based upon some reharmonisation of the basic structure of the tune (not some pentatonic gnat-note riffing).....sometimes I quote the melody of the tune, sometimes the melody of another tune (I once played the melody to "Fly Me To The Moon" in a "solo section" of "Brickhouse"!). And it is usually limited to 8 measures or less....leave 'em wanting more.

 

There is a famous tale of Miles Davis discussing the size of John Coltrane's solos during 'Trane's first stint with Davis' band. Coltrane was trying to explain to the bandleader how when he starts to take off on his solo, his head fills with millions of musical ideas and phrases, each one inextricably linked to another. As he plays the phrases just leap from his subconscious..one after another, fully formed and musically congruous. So much music, which endlessly flows from his mind to his sax. The problem was he did not know how to wind it up...how to end these inspired flights. Remember now, at this time Coltrane was known to take 45 min solos on tunes ( and inreference to what I wrote earlier..the man had a lot to say!)

 

Miles look at the saxophonist, smiled that half-smile he was known for, and said, "Trane, just take the fuckin' horn out of your mouth."

 

Max

[davebrownbass]

Great Story, Max. Warms the heart for us Miles lovers out there.

 

David Gilmour is my favorite rock guitarist, period. Every note he plays, he plays to say something.

 

SRV would be more than a fine rhythm player. I happen to think he'd be a blues singer as well!

 

Here's the ultimate homage to "solo-less" playing.

 

Fleetwood Mac's "You Can Go Your Own Way." Now we all know Lindsey Buckinham is a damn fine guitarist and soloist and singer and songwriter, in a band full of fine singers, songwriters and musicians.

 

And we know that John McVie and Mick Fleetwood are one of the baddest rhythm sections around.

 

Listen to this song...the incredible groove centered around the second beat. In the first "lead break" the band obviously tracked a nice section for Lindsey to lay down a solo, including 2 backup guitar tracks. But, in the release, they never added a guitar solo! There's just a big hole there...allowing a full chorus of just groove. It's incredible, and one of the greatest ideas in rock history.

[Tom Capasso]

Yeah - I'm not a jam band guy. Saw the Allman Brothers at the Beacon (2002). Most of the second set was continued soloing that left me sleepy. First set had plenty of lead guitar work that seemed integral to the song - great stuff!!

 

I've lived this as well - I was in a band where we played Zep's "Heartbreaker", and the rest of the band had milk and cookies during the guitar break because the lead wanked away for 20 minutes.

 

One of the reasons I like Elvis Costello (there are a lot of reasons) is that there aren't a lot of solos, and what leads are played are not extended but are musical ideas.

 

But well done lead work is cool. I'm continually impressed with "Comfortably Numb" (Gilmour). My band walks that line between overdoing the solo stuff and fitting the song - given the fact that we play 60s/70s stuff, it's part of the deal. It works out pretty well I think.

 

Tom

[ibescotty]

Yes something to say is the way.

 

David Gilmour gives me goose bumps.

 

I like some of Joe Satriani's stuff and that is all guitar solo work. His songs are compositions though. I think that's the difference. I think I'll go put on 'Surfing With The Alien' now.

 

Alex Lifeson will do almost anything to make the song work. I really respect his guitar work even though he isn't the most prominent member of his 3 piece.

 

In my current project we seem to take the guitar solo and turn it into a strong bridge section. Depends on the song of course. I think we try and make it as musically interesting as possible during the solo so there's lots to listen to besides the fine guitar work.

[Tom Capasso]

Oops - forgot to put in my usual plug. Jeremy mentioned Vanilla Fudge doing solos (thanks!). On the Vanilla Fudge album "Near The Beginning" (which was at the end of their career) is a live version of this. It's called "The Break Song". There is a structure to it and some ensemble playing, but the focus is on individual solos. I love Tim Bogert's work on his part, and his support work for the other guys. Great stuff!!

 

When I was a kid, the family stereo and TV were both in the living room. I used to try to tell my brother he could watch TV "when this song is over". I can't remember for sure, but the only time he fell for it was when I was playing either "In A Gadda Da Vida" (17+ minutes) or "The Break Song" (26+ minutes).

 

Tom

[MattC]

DBB, as usual, you're right- SRV is one helluva blues singer as well. My mind was stuck with the strings.

Dan South, don't forget that those jazz changes are the acompanyment for solos, but those changes form the basis for the "head" arrangements that people recognize. The "head" of a jazz tune in solo free.

As for as long vamp solos go, lemme give you a for instance: There are some certain types of jazz, especially avant garde, that I cannot get in to: everybody is doing their own thing and the mix sounds like a cacophenous mess. A few weeks ago, between songs at band practce, a band friend picked up an axe and started playing some jazz chords instead of the usual I-IV-V we usually play to. Myself and the drummer jumped in and we all started doing our own thing, all playing seperately and strangely together. In essence it was 3 10 minute long solos interwined- 'twas very cool.

[dcr]

Ditto the word on George Harrison. If I were a guitar player, Harrison would be my idol. (Don't forget Sir Paul did play some of those guitar solos--e.g. that scorcher on "Good Morning Good Morning.")

 

Ditto too on Jamerson. I thought it was interesting on the Shadows DVD that Joe Messina said the band often felt like they were playing accompaniment to Jamerson as a soloist, just when he was grooving! A lot of those bass lines are, indeed, duets with the vocalists. Just brilliant.

 

And I think that Fleetwood/McVie also figured out the power of good, raw groove. I remember one time as a kid when I ran my 8-track player through an amp, playing "The Lemon Song"; of course, it came out mono, & during the fast-tempo guitar interludes the lead was missing--the only channel that could be heard had just the underlying rhythm guitar tracks, and DAMN did they sound good! Those solos are good, but the rhythm track could've carried it by itself. (Listen to the song that way some time!) Something I've always liked about Talking Heads is that they'll just let the groove be the groove; check out the long-ish, grooving tags on "This Must Be the Place" and "Found a Job."

 

If the groove is good, then the groove IS the solo.

 

Glad to see there are so many Gilmour fans here. If you haven't heard "Delicate Sound of Thunder," you haven't heard him at the absolute pinnacle of his soloing, imho (same goes, I think, for Rick Wright's keys). BTW, he said that playing "Comfortably Numb" every night was the highlight of every "Wall" show, & really what kept him going; every night was another chance to try for perfection. (On "Delicate Sound," I think he's there; unfortunately, on "Pulse" he has to solo about 4x as long to cover the rather slow movements of an elaborate lighting prop, & I think the song suffers a bit (& sadly, on "Division Bell" I think he had something to say only some of the time, ironically).)

 

One guy for whom all the rules must be bent is, of course, Robert Fripp. Check out the instrumental/solo work on "Starless & Bible Black"; it's just amazing. It's constant riffing, and not really what you could call melodic, but is never, ever wanking. This is a guy who could improvise a 6-minute instrumental track, and in the process overturn entire concepts about what electric music is--and the result is of sufficient quality to go on a studio album. Most ideas & distinctions about what makes good soloing really have to be radically reconsidered in order to take account of Fripp. (And not everyone will like it!)

 

Just rambling.

[camsimian]

I agree...

 

Solo's shit me off... Bands who write interesting music don't need to wank around with solo's

 

Eg... Mr. Bungle... not much soloing there

 

anyway I'm just another bungle head... don't judge me.....

[Dan South]

Hey Max! You are a wise man! A wise man, indeed!

 

 

I think we can all agree that solos aren't the problem. The problems is solos that are longer than they are supposed to be or should not have been played in the first place. And guess who's usually the culprit in this crime. Well, what do you know? It's Mr. Guitar Player! Granted, there have been some wonderfully tasteful guitarists; many of them have been mentioned here already. I'd like to add Keith Richards of the Stones and Andy Summers of the Police to the list of Guitarists Warranting Merit For Their Restraint.

 

It's those 70's and 80's wankers who bloated song with their egomaniacal playing that bug the crap out of me. Hey, a lot of people hate Kurt Cobain, but at least grunge trashed the hair band solo fest (and the hair band boring bass lines).

 

You don't have to solo to ROCK!! But if you DO solo, make sure you ROCK and get it over with.

[Jode]

The pendulum just swings too far in either direction. Like a lot of people, I got totally fried on guitar solos in the 80s. What started out as a guitar renaissance, with players really boning up on their technique and theory, devolved into just wankery. Nowadays, all you hear is either three-chord faux-punk or seven-string guitar pudding. Jimmy Page had a guitar army, and bands like Mudvayne have a wall of blllllaaarrrrrggghhh. Somewhere in between maximum shred and willfully ignorant hipness, it is high time for another Beck or Clapton to stroll in and wow us with the subtle art of really good lead guitar. Oh, Stevie, where are you when we need you? Larry Carlton, we hardly knew ye.

 

Frank Zappa, the all-time king of unorthodox musical direction, used a code word on stage at one point to tell a fellow musician to settle down: "spoo," a euphemism for, ahem, discharge. He mentioned in his autobiography that during one show, guitarist Ike Willis was on his knees, head thrown back, eyes rolled back in his skull, showboating at the edge of the stage and going "weeeEEEEEoooooowwweeeEEEEE." Zappa walked up behind him and stage-whispered, "Spoo!" He said this translates to, "You are masturbating on your instrument, Mr. Willis, and you must stop it right now."

[hariseldon]

IMHO solos in rock are there to take the song to another place, making it unique. That is very important in a style where 90% of the songs share the same chord progressions/harmonies. Guitarists that often achieved this are Gilmour, George Harrison or Mark Knopfler