Faking it in a battle of the bands!

[Cup]

I think I've read some adverse opinions on B O B's here on this forum before, but the one we're (i.e my band) playing at tomorrow night will be so much fun.

 

I entered it a few weeks back. It's in our local arts college and is only open to bands who have at least one student member. We've no student members, so to help our entry chances I was a little lazy with the truth. We've recruited the guy who takes to do with our ad posters and demo photographs and sleeves etc, as a backing vocalist (he can't sing a note but he studies fine aret at the uni). I stated we're a full audience interactive band, who treat every performance as a piece of art Basically I talked the biggest pile of crap on the application in the hope of getting a go. Ohh, I also included a demo disc.

 

They phoned me up, we play in the first heat tomorrow night. Our singer flipped his lid when I told him all my "selling points" on the application. Luckily our art college friend is up for an almighty laugh and has agreed to help out. He's put together a slide show full of tongue in cheek art shots.

 

We hope to out "art" the art college Well, we'll have a great time embarressing ourselves any way. The winner gets a 3 song demo recorded and a load of good, local press.

 

I'll tell all as soon as.

 

Cup. This is art!

[BenLoy]

3 song demo! 3 song demo! 3 song demo!

[Tom Capasso]

Sounds like it could be fun, and help your band get some more exposure.

 

If you win, it will be interesting to keep this guy in the band until the demos are cut.... If I were you, I'd try for placing second instead of first....

 

No BenLoy, I did not say Milli Vanilli

 

Tom

[The Bear Jew]

Great, Cup!

Nothing is more entertaining than fucking with pretentious art types.

 

A few rules for this:

Make sure someone in the band is wearing very little besides black paint and a blindfold. Perhaps a loincloth. This could be the extra singer guy you mentioned. The black paint is a statement representing man's inhumanity to man. Practice saying that.

 

Make sure someone gets crucified onstage. Put a sign around that person's neck identifying them as "the spirit of childhood."

 

Unveil a toilet in the front of the performance area. Be sure to fill it with chicken guts. This represents something or other... I dunno.. maybe the government's treatment of the homeless. Make something up.

 

Build a giant bird's nest near the stage, and have someone sit in there and scream all night. Make sure this person is naked except for feathers. This person could also fling mud around the room at random times.

 

And try covering the area in front of the stage with as much loose sand as you possibly can - a half ton should do the job. Stick burning candles in this sand. Also, remember to have a lot of burning incense going. And Christmas lights! Lots of Christmas lights should be wrapped around random things onstage... like the drums.

 

You'll win for sure.

 

BTW, one of my old bands played a lot of art school events. I've seen all of these ridiculous things done for these shows. We always laughed our asses off.

[jeremy c]

Well, I actually hope you don't win. The contest is for students and you aren't students. You're pretending that you are and you are pretending that you are superior to the art students since you think they are poseurs and you really know what's happening.

 

Meanwhile, people here egg you on.

 

Grow up.

 

Put on your own show and leave the college students alone. They will actually have a degree in a few years and you will still be playing in your crummy band.

[The Bear Jew]

Jeeeeez Jer...

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

[Cup]

Benloy, to some (us non pro's) a 3 song demo is quite a big deal. Fun also enters the equation, you should try it some time.

 

Jeremy, have you never bent the truth to further your position? And what makes you think I haven't got a degree. I think you live in a terribly middle class world where fulfillmemt of character depends o a worthless bit of paper. Ohh, my band's not "crappy" btw.

 

To anyone with any life in them....WE WON

 

We kicked all asses. The slide show was a treat, our art student mate went full cliche mode, at our request.

 

But, the best thing was, we had fun.

 

p.s CMDN, loved those instructions, we weren't that pretentious, but I'll keep the sand in mind for the final!

 

Cup

[The Bear Jew]

Cup...

First off... WOO! Congrats. You also might wanna try covering your amps with feminine hygiene products and ketchup for the finals. Just an idea.

 

Secondly... I don't think Ben was giving you a hard time about the free demo thing. I think he was actually being supportive in a sorta silly way.

 

I don't know what set our friend JeremyC off, but he's obviously not feeling silliness of the battle of the bands situation. It struck some kinda nerve with him... go figure.

 

For the record... I'd never bother messing with a college BOB thing... they are a pain in the ass, and in the end, some crappy band that has no real affilation with the college always ends up winning, anyway. Smell that? It's sarcasm.

[jeremy c]

Yes, someone pissed in my cornflakes, as CMDN said correctly said.

 

Next I'll come over and piss in your cornflakes.

 

Oh boy, you won a college battle of the bands at a college you don't go to.

 

You're quick to label me bourgeois, but also quick to remind me that you have a degree.

 

I should remind you that I live in Berkeley, California, where there are a few liberal democrats and everyone else is much further to the left.

 

I have also survived as a professional musician for my whole life, a profession where "a piece of paper" is meaningless.

 

Your band isn't crummy, but in order to play in front of people you have to sneak into a college battle of the bands.

 

Like I said, if you want to have fun, put on your own damn show and don't pretend to be something you aren't.

 

And by the way, I have never pretended to be something I am not, stretched the truth, or lied to get a gig. I never had to.

 

Flame suit fully engaged.

[Teahead]

Well done Cup!

I was watching this post with interest from its initial posting. I have to say I was rooting for you. Primarily to prove that the rules of entry to this competition obviously weren't that important! If your band managed to win with a brand new recruit, and some hastily scrambled slide references, you must have the necessary musical credentials to outshine any mockery this could have made of the performance.

 

The fact that you included these aspects of the show simply to be eligible?

That just goes to show the initiative that drives this is more than a match for the music it represents.

Surely no one here is saying, that if Cups band got a deal out of this, they should feel that somehow they cheated their way to success?

 

Clarify your position Jeremy...

[Mr M Pulsive]

Originally posted by Teahead:

Clarify your position Jeremy...

I believe he's made his position QUITE clear. I also respect what he's said. This doesn't mean I hate you or anyone else here

-Mike

[The Bear Jew]

Yeah, Jeremy, sounds like you're really bothered by this. I didn't realise something so mundane would trigger such a response from you -- you're usually so easygoing. BTW, could you piss in my Oatmeal instead? I don't like corn flakes. They taste like shit.

 

I think art schools are funny, especially since I ran with the "art school" crowd back when I was in college. I also think the BOB things are funny. And when they happen in art schools, they're hilarious. When I was in school, most of the time, the bands that won these contests were just a bunch of guys who hastily threw something semi-musical together and did something theatrical (like the sand and candles) onstage. The bands that were "serious" didn't usually stand a chance, as the guys who were throwing mud and painting themselves black usually had the most friends present to vote for them.

 

I see your point... the contest is for students, and Cup's band is breaking the rules. I'm not sure if it's really worth getting upset over this, though.

 

Jeremy... I don't wanna offend you. I'm just being silly. It's sorta what I do.

[jeremy c]

I'm not upset.

 

Just in a cranky mood this week, playing the devil's advocate.

 

Don't really mean to hurt any feelings.

 

Can we still be friends, Cup, CMDN?

[Teahead]

Originally posted by Mr M Pulsive:

Originally posted by Teahead:

Clarify your position Jeremy...

I believe he's made his position QUITE clear. I also respect what he's said. This doesn't mean I hate you or anyone else here

-Mike

No offence taken Mike, but I am compelled to feel that anyone, who cannot understand, that certain ends justify any means, simply doesn't want it enough.

I know I'd much rather hitch a ride and see the world, than insist on walking it and never leaving my own back yard.

 

There is no right and wrong here, it is a question of ethics. CMDN is right though, you are very bitter about this Jeremy. Maybe it's because you don't want to see Cup slip in the back door, when you have been knocking the front door for a lifetime?

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by CupMcMali:

It's in our local arts college and is only open to bands who have at least one student member. We've no student members, so to help our entry chances I was a little lazy with the truth.

Cup,

 

You're probably a better musician, and a better person, than one who needs to be lazy with the truth. Maybe you could enjoy the fun you had in competing and winning, but pass the prize along to a legit student band.

 

Personally, I probably couldn't take any satisfaction in the victory if I question my own ethics.

 

Just my opinion. Not making a judgement.

[Mr M Pulsive]

Cool Teahead -

Glad I didn't piss ya off I just felt like I should back Jeremy a bit, since I agree with him (albeit maybe not as strongly) and I didn't see anyone else jumping up.

 

I'm not saying Cup is a despicable liar for 'fudging the truth', Lord knows I have before. But I personally get much more satisfaction out of something I've worked honestly for. That said.. I've been known to take the occaisional free cheesestick that the Sample Lady's handing out at the corner.

 

I had a wholesome childhood. I'd like to believe I'll be a wholesome person 'til the end of my days.

 

It's good to see the topic cooling down.

-Mike

[The Bear Jew]

I'm not upset.

 

Just in a cranky mood this week, playing the devil's advocate.

 

Don't really mean to hurt any feelings.

 

Can we still be friends, Cup, CMDN?

Hmmm. Yeah. I kinda figured as much. Ya sneaky bastid.

 

BTW, next time you're in Philly, look me up so that I can take a dump in your cheese-steak.

 

Of course we can still be friends. Big hugs for everyone.

[Mike F.]

i was kinda thinking that if this is horrific stuff that cup has done, you should see my prison record.... sheit its rough

[Cup]

Jeremy, of course we're buddies. CMDN shit on my red wine and sleeping tablets (my preferred choice of breakfast this morning).

 

Well I feel no need to explain or defend my position on this, but others do, so I'll rant. My ethics are as pure as any of my detractors. We simply entered a B.O.B (which by definition is flawed from the start, should musicians, or ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE be battlin?)

 

We lied to get there. Well sorry, half the world is at war, and the other half are thinking about it. So the people we entertained enjoyed themselves for 1 night and forgot about the world's shit.

 

Ohh, I know the olive branch has been extended (and thoroughly accepted) but I never stated I had a degree, I simply asked "what makes you think I haven't a degree. I've a HND in tongue-in cheek-piss-taking, with a recommendation in arrogance in front of my elders (p.s in Irish elders = betters).

 

Cup

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by Teahead:

There is no right and wrong here, it is a question of ethics.

From Merriam-Webster, the definitionof ethics:

"the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation"

 

If we're talking about ethics, it is about right and wrong.

 

Cup, I'm the guy who hoped you placed second so you would get the recognition without the full benefit from you questionable entry. I admit I'm glad you won for the boost it gives your band. If you're happy with that, great. I'm not sure how I'd feel in your circumstances. I understand that BOBs are not perfect circumstances..

 

I can't claim I never misled anyone for gain. It hasn't happened often, and I always regretted it.

 

Tom

[Teahead]

How do you determine which is right or wrong?

The good or the bad?

I'll presume you intend us to see good as right and bad as wrong.

Ethics are much more complicated than that, your definition would have us believe it is a black or white decision.

So why do so many contributors, you included Tom, seem to be saying they live their lives in the grey area? Even though you gaze longingly toward the good/right/white side you wish to inhabit.

 

Incidentally I've assigned the white side as good, to underline how ridiculous the notion of right and wrong is here. To resign the colour black to being bad is something we had been getting wrong for years. Symbolic of how ethics change don't you think? Right and wrong will always be the same.

[Corner Pocket]

Battles of the Band(s) suck rocks.

 

When you agree to play for free, or worse, pay an entry fee, you are telling the venue owner or promoter exactly what you think, scratch that, what you know, you are worth.

 

A multi night event that involves 15 to 20 "contestants" gives the venue lots of free entertainment. Instead of paying everybody for their work, one band gets to have a modest prize financed by all of their friends who payed a cover charge and far too much for beer.

 

I know of no bar or club that promotes a"Battle of the Cocktail Wait-staff", where people are encouraged to spend a night slinging drinks to unappreciative yabbos for free, andwhere the only hope for reward is the chance to do it again for a few more nights, in the off chance you might get to spend a day at a bartending course.

 

Never play for nothing, unless you are, in fact, worth nothing.

[Beermouse]

Never play for nothing, unless you are, in fact, worth nothing.

Maybe you're speaking only to those that play to put food on the table, but I play quite frequently for absolutely nothing, simply because I love to play.

[Corner Pocket]

Why would any venue owner or promoter want to ever pay for professional musicians, when someone will do it for free, because that someone "loves to play"?

 

Are there any Dentists out there who go to a bar and start drilling because they "love oral hygiene'?

 

When you play for free you de-value the effort and skill of all musicians, professional or hobbyist, including the ones who now can't put food on the table because somebody "loves to play."

 

The only winners when musicians play for free are the people selling tickets, and the people selling beer.

[Beermouse]

How very cynical!

 

I fail to see how playing for free devalues other musicians. Maybe that's because of my age and naiveté, so please, do explain it to me.

[Partyboydan]

Omg why do so many posts turn into ethical ravings and then apologies.

 

This was a fun post to begin with then a slaggin match and then well im not too sure

 

Any advice on putting on a battle o the bands or if i should bother.

 

P.s. im no art student - i dont conform to the non conformists enough

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by bitterling:

How very cynical!

 

I fail to see how playing for free devalues other musicians. Maybe that's because of my age and naiveté, so please, do explain it to me.

It's simple economics. Consider this: Three supermarkets, A, B & C. If Supermarket A decided to reduce the price of Lemonade to nothing, then very few people would buy Lemonade from Supermarket B or C, even if they preferred the service, location etc of Supermarkets B & C. Consequently B & C would have to either reduce the price of Lemonade significantly, or give it away to get their customers back. Then consider musician A offering to play a night for free - do you think that musicians B & C will continue to be paid as well as they did before, or will the club owner reduce their fee because if they complain he'll just get a whole load of musician A's in to play for nothing.

 

Much as I dislike having to worry about money when all I want to do is play music, if you do play for free you could be taking a gig that a pro would have otherwise played. If every half-decent musician goes out and plays "just for the love of music" all the pros will be unable to support themselves as musicians and the quality of live music will get even worse.

 

In the US there is still a relatively thriving gig scene. In the UK there isn't. Both the club and pub circuits for up and coming bands have almost disappeared consequently there are fewer and fewer venues that will pay for originals bands.

 

One of the biggest reasons behind this is the thriving DJ scene - it costs far less to employ one DJ than it does to employ a whole band. Furthermore, that DJ will play songs that people know whilst the bands probably won't, so people are likely to enjoy themselves more and thus drink more and spend more money.

 

If a band wishes to book itself a tour around the UK, playing small venues, it will most probably get paid what they'd pay a lone DJ, if not less because one DJ can fill a whole night and few originals bands have enough material to do that. That is usually too little money to support a band on tour, even if they sleep in the van and play a gig every night.

 

You are a musician, you have worked hard to learn your art, you deserve to be paid. Learn to negotiate, learn to maximise your value, and ensure that future generations still get to hear live music and don't have to suffer endless nights of DJ's playing the same old tunes ad nauseam or lone singers with midi backing tracks.

 

Because you're worth it!

 

Alex

[Teahead]

Alex, with the greatest of respect, who are you to impose payment requirements on the rest of us?

I suspect the fact that you earn your living from playing greatly influences your opinion here.

The idea being, that if there is no cheap labour, then skilled workers cannot be undercut by inexperienced apprentices?

You seriously expect us to believe, that you yourself, would pay for lemonade when it's offered cheaper, or free, elsewhere? Just to keep supermarket X in business?

When stores or shops do offer free produce it's usually because they have something to gain by enticing you in. Maybe you'll buy other, overpriced stock.

You should not discourage bands from using this approach just to ensure your minimum income. Indeed you may want to brush up on those negotiating skills you were mentioning.

Playing for no money is not always playing for free.

[Kooky Mogessi]

***Keep in mind I'm pratically a non-gigger. I've only played a few gigs, all for free***

 

In my eyes playing for free or having to pay to play are just on the path to becoming a paid musician. If no one has ever heard of you or your band how much do you think someone would pay you to play at their place. But if you play for free you get your name out there, get a fanbase then people will start wanting you and in turn start paying you for your performing. And you can still bring CD's, T shirts, etc to the non paying gigs and still have a chance of making money.

 

Thats my opinion on that matter.

 

I too play because I enjoy playing and making music. its relaxing yet exhilirating for me.

just my 2 cents

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Teahead:

Alex, with the greatest of respect, who are you to impose payment requirements on the rest of us?

I didn't realise I was - I was just making a heartfelt plea which you misinterpreted as an order.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

I suspect the fact that you earn your living from playing greatly influences your opinion here.

Actually, I earn my living from 'playing' the currency markets. I am a foreign exchange consultant and work fulltime developing new business in the provision of international payment solutions to UK based importers and exporters.

 

The last band I was in was with some professional musicians and I found it very frustrating having to focus on making a profit as well as making good music and consequently my new project is more of a loss-minimisation, hopefully breaking-even or even small profit endeavour.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

The idea being, that if there is no cheap labour, then skilled workers cannot be undercut by inexperienced apprentices?

That's fine, if the inexperienced apprentices can replace the skilled workers later down the line to educate the next generation of apprentices - but what if they can't? I know that I am not as good a musician as I would be if it was my job - would it be right for me to usurp a contemporary that has attempted to dedicate their life to it but been foiled by the lack of well paying gigs, especially since it was I(hypothetically) that pushed down the going rate for such gigs)?

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

You seriously expect us to believe, that you yourself, would pay for lemonade when it's offered cheaper, or free, elsewhere? Just to keep supermarket X in business?

My thanks for your reinforcement of the point. Indeed, I do not believe anyone (with half and ounce of business sense) will pay for something when they can get something very similar for nothing. I certainly wouldn't. Hence my suggestion that it is folly for any band to regularly play in a profit-making venue 'just for the love of it' - all they are doing is devaluing their art in the eyes of the proprieter and putting themselves at risk of exploitation.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

When stores or shops do offer free produce it's usually because they have something to gain by enticing you in.

Absolutely, and playing gigs for free has its place, whether it be developing new contacts, launching CDs, supporting a similar band to gain fanbase, or of course charity gigs and non-profit making arty functions. (Such as the improvisational gig I did in an art gallery a few years back). But I strongly believe that playing for free should not be the default.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

Maybe you'll buy other, overpriced stock.

I won't, and I doubt any venue manager will - who would book a professional covers band when there's a semi-pro one that sounds the same to a drunken punter and doesn't want paying.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

You should not discourage bands from using this approach just to ensure your minimum income.

If my writing carries as much weight as you seem to think then I should clarify my position - by all means play free gigs, but try and ensure that if it is at a profit-making venue you get something back from the proprieter. Maybe play as a support act for nothing so that down the line he will pay you to headline; use his venue to effectively host a party supporting your own material or agenda; but do not let a venue repeatedly use you as, in effect, a professional band and not pay you. You are doing neither yourself, nor your fellow musicians any favours.

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

Indeed you may want to brush up on those negotiating skills you were mentioning.

I am constantly brushing up on my negotiating skills - it's what I'm paid for. I sell our services as a company but my clients rarely realise they're being sold to, they just think they're buying what they need. (Which I'm proud to say they are, which is nice from an ethical standpoint).

 

Originally posted by Teahead:

Playing for no money is not always playing for free.

Indeed not - but once in the habit of always playing for no money, it is terribly easy to slip into always playing for free.