Advice on recording a demo

[Rim]

I'm still learning about recording and would like to get advice from you all. The post is long because I'm trying to give you all the details so thanks for you patience. My cover band will be re-recording our demo (different songs than our current one) and I would like some advice whether I can get a decent demo with what I'm planning to do. The band consists of drums, bass, guitar and up to two vocals. We will probably record "Inside Out" by Eve6, "I Want You to Want Me" by Cheap Trick, "Ready to Go" by Republica and possibly "American Girl" by Tom Petty. Here's what I have: Digi001 w/PTLE on a PIII 866MHz, 384MB RAM, two 7600 RPM drives. 1 Presonus Blue Tube preamp 1 RNC1773 compressor 2 MXL V63M mics 1 Studio Projects C1 mic 1 AKG D112 2 AKG drum clip-on mini-mics (I forget the model number) 2 SM57 mics 3 SM58 mics POD 2.0 (although I like the sound I get from the rec out of my guitar amp) SansAmp (the original one) I'm planning on buying another C1 mic. For recording: Drums: D112 (Digi001 pre) on kick, SM57 (Digi001 pre) on snare, two C1 (BlueTube pre => RNC => Digi001) as OH. Bass: straight into Digi001 probably via Boss CS3 compressor/sustainer pedal and possibly through the "Bass" setting of the SansAmp Guitar: straight into Digi001 from amp rec out Vocals: SM58 for scratch, C1 => BlueTube => RNC => Digi001 for overdub I'm not sure if I need a preamp for the guitar and bass directs. If I do, instead of getting dedicated mic pres, I was looking to getting a used Mackie 1202 or 1402 VLZ Pro. I would like to use (or at least try) the AKG mini-mics but I only have two and the drummer uses more than two toms although I can ask him to use only two. If so, then I would definitely need more mic pres. Also, if I use 6 channels for drums, then one each for bass and guitar, I couldn't record scratch vocals. We haven't tried playing without vocal cues so I'm not sure we can pull it off. Will using 6 mics instead of 4 on drums make a huge difference? If so, what mics to use and for miking what on the drums? Any other suggestions to increase my chances of getting a good demo recorded? I'm hoping not to have to buy anything but if I have to, I would like to keep it under $500. It would also have to be something that I will use in the future. An extra C1 will already cost me around $230 so if I buy that, we're only talking about another $250. Thanks in advance!

[Danny M]

My thoughts are these: As far as having enough tracks to do a scratch vocal, you could try just recording the band ensemble to two tracks (or up to seven for greater control of the cue mixes, thus having one track left for scratch vocals.) Then, you could overdub everybody. Six mics vs four on the drums will have a huge effect on the sound...if you want everything to be close miced. Kick, snare, and a pair of overheads (for example) can be quite adequate, but may not be the sound that you want. -Danny

[Rim]

Thanks for the tips! I don't trust myself enough to mix the whole band to two tracks. I need the flexibility of separate tracks for mixing. If I were to use six mics on drums, then the extra two will go on toms? Another idea I had, which I haven't tried, is use one of the clip-on mini-mic on the hi-hat and use one V63M for a room mic. Which do you think would be better?

[Franknputer]

Go ahead & put the mini's on the toms, if you want to go that route. If you play with the placement, you can probably cheat the 3rd tom in there. Don't underestimate the power of a pair of overheads, though. Also, try putting the mics in front of the kit rather than overhead - you'll get more toms, and the cymbals will be plenty loud enough. Use the snare to get some of the hi-hat too. If you are taking a DI of your guitar, think about getting it clean to disc, then running the signal out of the disc & feeding it thru your amp - then you can use 1 or more mics to get that sound the way you like it.

[Danny M]

[quote]I don't trust myself enough to mix the whole band to two tracks. I need the flexibility of separate tracks for mixing.[/quote]Absolutely. What I'm talking about is nothing more than getting something to use as a cue mix. After that, everybody overdubs separately. Then, you can dump the original cue tracks and mix the real thing. -Danny

[where02190]

I always track toms, but rarely use them when mixing. good overhead placement to give you a great drum sound with just them is key. Asme with hat's, tracks em, but if I need extra tracks, they are the first to go. I'd add a room mic, preferably and omni. I also recommend using DI's for the guitar and bass tracks if you can get good ones, particualrly decent valve units. (The TL Audio PA-2 comes to mind) Take your time with mic placement on the kit, it is the key to a great sound. Of course all other elements are key as well, well tuned kit, good room, player, etc. Good luck, and I hope this was helpful.

[nursers]

test

[Ultravibe]

What's your monitoring setup? Spend a long time getting the sounds nice and juicy at the outset and you'll have fewer problems when it comes to mixing. Just recorded a band that after the third song, going into the last one the drummer said, "I just hit the snare mic." "Did it move?", says I. "Nah" he said. I didn't check it. Should be fine, I figure. I wasn't - mixing the other night and the things I had to do to that snare track to get it sounding even moderately close to the other three tracks was astounding! Woe is me. Drew

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: [b]Go ahead & put the mini's on the toms, if you want to go that route. If you play with the placement, you can probably cheat the 3rd tom in there. Don't underestimate the power of a pair of overheads, though. Also, try putting the mics in front of the kit rather than overhead - you'll get more toms, and the cymbals will be plenty loud enough. Use the snare to get some of the hi-hat too. If you are taking a DI of your guitar, think about getting it clean to disc, then running the signal out of the disc & feeding it thru your amp - then you can use 1 or more mics to get that sound the way you like it.[/b][/quote]Thanks! minis on toms sounds like the way to go. I will definitely check out placing the OHs in front - never thought of that. Tracking the guitar clean scares me. I have a Whirlwind DI - is that good enough?

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by Danny M: [b] [quote]I don't trust myself enough to mix the whole band to two tracks. I need the flexibility of separate tracks for mixing.[/quote]Absolutely. What I'm talking about is nothing more than getting something to use as a cue mix. After that, everybody overdubs separately. Then, you can dump the original cue tracks and mix the real thing. -Danny[/b][/quote]Oh, I get it. Good idea but I'm not sure we can swing it. Also, I like the idea of all the instruments playing and recorded simultaneously for a better feel. OTOH, during tracking, if I can get the drum parts down then I will overdub everything else.

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by where02190: [b]Take your time with mic placement on the kit, it is the key to a great sound. Of course all other elements are key as well, well tuned kit, good room, player, etc. Good luck, and I hope this was helpful.[/b][/quote]where, thanks for the tips. I will definitely take time on miking the drums. Unfortunately, I don't have an omni to use as a room mic. I was planning on going to the drummer's house and spending at least an hour on miking that up before asking the rest of the band to show up. When I first did our demo, I didn't really know about the importance of mic placement so I'm excited to play with it this time. Previously, I just stuck a mic in front of what I was trying to track without really thing about the angle and distance of the mic. I was also using dynamic mics on OHs which didn't get me much of anything.

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by Ultravibe: [b]What's your monitoring setup? Spend a long time getting the sounds nice and juicy at the outset and you'll have fewer problems when it comes to mixing.[/b][/quote]I guess you mean during recording? I recently got a DOD headphone dist. amp and I was planning on using that. I figured I need that during tracking. Is it better to have a monitor when I'm trying to get the right sounds? For mixing, I use a Alesis RA100 amp with Aleses Monitor One speaker. I can bring these for recording. Now that I think about it, I will bring this setup. I figure it'd be nicer to hear playback through these instead of the phones. Should I use them to get the right sounds?

[KenElevenShadows]

General tip with drums, since most of your questions seem to about that. Start with an overhead or two. See what you need. Probably a kick. Add that. What else do you need? Keep adding until it's the sound you need. Fill in what's "missing" by adding something else. Once you get it, don't add any more mics. Move them around, sure, but what I am getting at is that if you can get a great sound with only six mics, don't bother with eight. Does this make sense? I usually end up using about six. One overhead two on the kick one on the snare two on the toms. The overhead mic (yes, just one) -- I've been using omni, so I haven't been using an extra room mic, but I like a lot of room sound to play with. I know exactly what sound I am going after in terms of how much room sound I want, but if you don't know, then sneak in a room mic on a separate track and then add this to the mix as you see fit. The less mics, the easier it is to mix, due to fewer tracks, but also because there is less chance to screw something up or have odd resonances or weird frequency things going on. I personally can't stand bottom-micing, but a lot of people do it. Too fussy for me, and I'm already getting the sound I want without it, but this is my personal taste. Other people do it and get a great sound. I also use large diaphragm condensers on the toms, a 57 inside the kick, and a large diaphragm condenser outside the kick. I love condensers for micing drum kits. Snare -- usually a 421. Get as great of a sound as you can be moving the mics around. For me, I try to get the best sound I can from the overhead first. When it is as good as possible, then I start sneaking in the other mics. Kick. Then snare. Move them around a lot to get the best sound possible. Move, listen, move, listen, move, listen, listen, listen, listen... If I don't need toms, I stop there. If the drummer is only going to play his floor tom, then I'll use a large diaphragm condenser for the floor tom. Five mics. Easy. Rack tom? Six mics total. Lots of room sound. I tweak the room, flatten it if I have to, whatever, to get the drums sounding really good. Move, listen, move, listen, listen, listen... I don't stop until the drums sound awesome. I don't touch the EQ until the drums sound awesome. I usually need very little EQ, if any, when tracking, and then maybe just a little when mixing, not to fix the sound, but mixing is a jigsaw puzzle (unless I want a really extreme sound, in which case I may use tons of EQ). I feel that if I am fixing anything with EQ, then I've done a shitty job of recording it. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE EQ. I just don't like fixing things with it whenever possible. I will use gobs of EQ on something, but I don't want to FIX it -- I want to make it sound a certain way. Assuming that you have a good drummer, kit, and room and decent mic preamps, with the mics you have, you can get a good drum sound. Sure, it's easier with even better mics, but you have good enough mics that you can get a really good drum sound. I hope this helps.

[Franknputer]

The Whirlwind DI should be fine - the idea is to record just the guitar tone, but go ahead & listen thru the POD or amp or whatever while you're recording. Then you end up with a raw signal that you can feed thru the POD/amp/whatever & play with the tone, rather than being committed to it. I suggested this mainly because DIs from guitars usually don't sound so good. This way, you can still go DI but send it thru an amp later if you want a more dynamic, organic sound. If you always use the POD, and you have your sound down, then you may just want to go with that. One other thing - don't obsess over getting a perfect sound on any one mic. Things WILL change when you get them all together. Get a decent level on a mic, then move on. When you have them all set, turn them all on & listen before you start picking them apart one by one. You may find that each mic complements what the others are lacking.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Franknputer: [b]One other thing - don't obsess over getting a perfect sound on any one mic. Things WILL change when you get them all together. Get a decent level on a mic, then move on. When you have them all set, turn them all on & listen before you start picking them apart one by one. You may find that each mic complements what the others are lacking.[/b][/quote]Yeah, this is really important. Although that said, I do spend a lot of time on the first mic, the overhead mic, getting it so it picks up a really great, balanced sound on the overheads. Other than that, the above advice is the best way to go. Otherwise, it's a colossal waste of time. I've seen engineers waste so much time isolating the snare, trying to get that happening, only to turn up the rest of their mics and then start all over again.

[Rim]

Awesome tips, Franknputer and Ken! Ken, I like your idea of setting up the OHs first. Makes sense to me since the OHs will pick up at least a little of everything. Then it makes sense to add mics to whatever sound I'm lacking. The use of one OH mic is interesting. But I guess if you mic the toms, then you still have the stereo separation. What about the cymbals? Unless you mic the cymbals, too, then aren't all your cymbals coming up the middle (assuming you pan the OH mic dead center)? I think I will stick with two OHs 'cause it may allow me not to have to mike toms although that option is still there. Franknputer, Guitar via DI is partly of necessity. Since we like recording all instruments together, DI prevents bleeds into the drum mics. I've never tried tracking clean but I can see the advantage of putting it through the amp and miking the amp after the original tracking. I'm gonna try that, too. I just need to figure out how to track clean but have the amped sound through the monitor.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by riffing: [b]Awesome tips, Franknputer and Ken! Ken, I like your idea of setting up the OHs first. Makes sense to me since the OHs will pick up at least a little of everything. Then it makes sense to add mics to whatever sound I'm lacking. The use of one OH mic is interesting. But I guess if you mic the toms, then you still have the stereo separation. What about the cymbals? Unless you mic the cymbals, too, then aren't all your cymbals coming up the middle (assuming you pan the OH mic dead center)? I think I will stick with two OHs 'cause it may allow me not to have to mike toms although that option is still there. [/b][/quote]For the longest time, I used two overheads. Switched in the last year. You know what? No one can tell the darn difference. I've never had anyone comment on it. You do have to be more particular with the placement so it picks up everything. I like getting a lot of toms in my overheads so they are more beefy and robust. I move it around until I feel that one mic is balanced, picking up cymbals, toms, everything. You'd also be surprised at how good the kit sounds with just one OH and nothing else. I use an Audio Technica AT4051 small diaphragm condenser in omni (this mic has switchable capsules), but have done it in the past with cardioid (AT4049, I think). The cymbals generally do come up the middle, although with the leakage of the cymbals into the other mics, it's not really a concern. They're splashing all over the place. I'm trying to allow the mic leakage to work for me, not against me. I'm not getting too worked up about mic leakage at all. In fact, I had the bass cabinet in the other room. Usually, I have it in the same room, but way off to the side. I had the bass cabinet in the kitchen while the drums were in the living room. Perfect isolation with the door closed. I ended up opening the door to allow drum leakage into the bass amp mic, and it really livened things up. Sounded MUCH better. Getting back to the cymbals for a moment, I never have miced the cymbals specifically. I have the overheads positioned so it gets the overall kit, not just keying in on the cymbals. I've done this with either one or two OHs. The OHs pick up the ride and the two othe cymbals. Sounds great. Now I can do it with one. The drummer wasn't too happy about this at first since this was unconventional. Then, he heard it and thought it sounded great. I move the mic around until I get maximum impact from the cymbals and they're balanced. I won't stop moving the mic around until I get maximum attack from the crash cymbals, the ride fits in really nice, the toms are robust and meaty, high-hat's not obtrusive but not buried, and the snare -- well, the damn snare is so freakin' loud that it's never a problem. It'll pick up regardless of where I position the OH. The other thing that I love is large diaphragm condensers on the floor tom. Man, that sounds nice. It picks up the whole impact, tone, and character. I'm using a Rode NT2, but if I had another AT4060, I'd put it on there. And again, I must emphasize that NO ONE has ever noticed that there is only one overhead. They just think that the drums sound amazing. I even fit it in with a bunch of tracks with two overheads. Same drummer, kit, room, everything, and NO ONE notices. With TWO mics on the overheads, you have to be somewhat concerned about positioning. I use X-Y sometimes, spaced pair other times. It depends. If I am getting nowhere with X-Y, then I switch to spaced pair, positioning the mics so that if something is a little weak (say, the high-hat doesn't have enough volume or definition), I'll point one of the mics closer to that area to see what that can do, moving it closer if necessary. Whatever is deficient, I'll move around until I get a really great picture of the drum set. Then, and only then, will I start putting other mics in, usually starting with the kick and then the snare. If it sounds great with the kick (I use two mics on the kick, partially to get more of the tone and impact of the kick, and partially to include in more of the room sound, which I like) and snare mic, then I leave it alone. If the drummer is playing one tom, I mic that tom. If rack tom occasionally, I'll use one mic to cover both rack toms. If there are a lot of tom hits during a song, I occasionally will mic up BOTH rack toms -- three tom mics total. TOMS: If the rack toms are anemic, sometimes I'll put small diaphragm condensers up on them. That usually gets more impact, attack, and tone, and gets rid of that cardboard box feeling. I like hearing TONE and CHARACTER from the toms, not just a thud. I want to hear a musical note and feel the stick on the skin. Sometimes, I back the mics off the toms a little, micing either the rim, or sometimes even the wood, depending on the song. More often then not, though, I'll have the tom mics over the rim, looking at the middle of the skin, and really damn close to the skin, but pointing across the toms towards the middle. I seem to get consistently get tones this way.

[where02190]

FWIW, I use a Shure VP-88 stereo mic for drum overheads, and always get amazing results IMHO (and others too). Since it is a fixed capsule stero mic, there are no phase issues associated with two mics. Rode has also come out with a stero mic recently for aorund $500 that supposedly is extremely good. I place the stereo mic directly over the drummers head about 18", closer if I can get away with it.. this gives as close as possible the same prespective as the drummer is hearing. Regarding toms, although as previously mentioned I don't use tom tracks much in mixing, when I do, I love the sound of AKG 414's on them!!!!! FYI riffing, you might want to consider renting some mics, and/or preamps as well to supliment your collection from recommendations off this post. Good luck!!!!!

[Rim]

Ken, OK, you got me real curious. I will definitely try just one OH on at least one of the songs. I forget that the other drum mics will also pickup some cymbals and I can get some stereo separation that way. Where, Thanks. I didn't even think of renting mics. I'll check my local music store and see if they rent them.